Strands in the Tapestry: the Business, Economics, and Tax Policy Thread

[bigmrg74]

Re: Dead!!!!

Re: Dead!!!!

Yeah, again you let us know how willing you are to pay taxes with somebody else's money. Money they earned by "climbing out of the right vagina." How dare Bud Adams, Jr. try to legally limit his tax exposure here. By inheriting he has lost any claim he might have on fairness. You'd probably be willing to overpay, you're such an altruist. You and the rest of the libtards think you know much better how their money should be spent. Why not be honest, for a change?

As a guy who once quoted an Arkansas Republican county chairman (as if he were somebody important) I frankly don't believe you don't know who Ira Magaziner is. And in the unlikely event you don't, why don't you apply just a tiny bit of the energy you expend triumphantly quoting obscure conservatives and look him up?

Boo freaking Woo!! once you get past the first Billion, does it really matter to you about how much money you get to keep?

 

[Old Pio]

Re: Dead!!!!

Re: Dead!!!!

Boo freaking Woo!! once you get past the first Billion, does it really matter to you about how much money you get to keep?

They don't deserve it anyway, do they? Much better to let smart a*s Ivy League a*sholes decide, eh?

 

[Old Pio]

Re: Dead!!!!

Re: Dead!!!!

Once again, I've never said anything about limiting his estate tax. That's more of you making stuff up as you go. And again, this isn't someone else's money. It would be MY money. I am curious though. You're a rugged individualist who wants people to pull themselves up by their bootstraps...that isn't what he is doing, is it? He's pulling himself up by Daddy's bootstraps. Isn't that counter to what Republicans think people should do?

And no, I don't know who Ira is. Given your fascination with Democrats who have been dead for decades I'm going to guess he was an economist that said something you didn't like 30 or 40 years ago.

By the way, this thread is for the announcing of people who have passed, so if you wish to continue our pleasant discussion, may I suggest we do it in one of the numerous political threads so people don't wander in here looking to see who died and are instead greeted by political debate? Great.

You started it. And now you want to take your ball and go home? Well, anything that limits our exposure to your obsessive, juvenile excretions is to the applauded. The fact that you're too lazy and arrogant to look up Ira Magaziner doesn't surprise me in the slightest. Since you're also too lazy and arrogant to provide sources for a high percentage of your posts.

 

[LynahFan]

Re: Dead!!!!

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My point is, and has been, that his heirs have done about as much to "earn" that money as you or I have.

So if you have something you didn't "earn," then it technically doesn't belong to you and the government has the right to take it from you? What'd you get for your last birthday? Send it in to the IRS now, please.

Oh, wait, that would involve YOUR money/property, so I bet the situation is somehow different....

 

[Priceless]

Re: Dead!!!!

Re: Dead!!!!

So if you have something you didn't "earn," then it technically doesn't belong to you and the government has the right to take it from you? What'd you get for your last birthday? Send it in to the IRS now, please.

Oh, wait, that would involve YOUR money/property, so I bet the situation is somehow different....

Where did I say that? He has every legal right to the money whether he earned it or not. If John Beresford Tipton comes up to you tomorrow and gives you a suitcase full of cash, it is yours. But how did you "earn" it? By being in the right place at the right time.

 

[joecct]

Re: Dead!!!!

Re: Dead!!!!

My wife and I are working with an estate planner to minimize the amount of tax the Feds and State grab when we die. I would assume that most people on this board are doing or thinking of the same thing.

The tax system is screwed up, IMO. One side is legally trying to get as much as they can and the other side is using the same laws to minimize what they pay. There has to be a better and fairer way.

 

[unofan]

So if you have something you didn't "earn," then it technically doesn't belong to you and the government has the right to take it from you? What'd you get for your last birthday? Send it in to the IRS now, please.

Oh, wait, that would involve YOUR money/property, so I bet the situation is somehow different....

In this case, the appreciation of the stake in the titans would have been unrealized capital gains and not previously taxed. So pardon me if I'm not feeling sorry for anyone in this situation.

 

[Priceless]

Re: Strands in the Tapestry: the Business, Economics, and Tax Policy Thread

In this case, the appreciation of the stake in the titans would have been unrealized capital gains and not previously taxed. So pardon me if I'm not feeling sorry for anyone in this situation.

Not for nothing, but I haven't heard anything indicating that Bud Jr wants any sympathy or thinks the tax is unfair. This whole discussion started because Joe speculated that the estate taxes will be pretty high considering the football franchise is worth over $1Billion.

 

[DrDemento]

Re: Dead!!!!

Re: Dead!!!!

My wife and I are working with an estate planner to minimize the amount of tax the Feds and State grab when we die. I would assume that most people on this board are doing or thinking of the same thing.

The tax system is screwed up, IMO. One side is legally trying to get as much as they can and the other side is using the same laws to minimize what they pay. There has to be a better and fairer way.

Amen to that Joe-we have had to make extensive plans and change them frequently over the past years. It is not like we have all that much-but everything we do have, we worked for(both my wife and i came from what we used to call lower middle class(perhaps we were really upper lower class). We had nothing, inherited nothing but our parent's debts to pay, took care of our parents as they aged, paid for raising our children and everything that entailed and worked for every penny we saved or invested with the money we had left over after paying all the taxes levied upon us. All we ask is that anything left over when we are both gone-go fully to where we decide it should. Hopefully we have prepared correctly.

 

[joecct]

Re: Strands in the Tapestry: the Business, Economics, and Tax Policy Thread

Not for nothing, but I haven't heard anything indicating that Bud Jr wants any sympathy or thinks the tax is unfair. This whole discussion started because Joe speculated that the estate taxes will be pretty high considering the football franchise is worth over $1Billion.

Well they will be unless there has been some creative (but legal) stuff to keep the assets away from the tax man. IIRC the Wrigley family had to sell the Cubs to pay the estate taxes.

 

[St. Clown]

Re: Strands in the Tapestry: the Business, Economics, and Tax Policy Thread

Well they will be unless there has been some creative (but legal) stuff to keep the assets away from the tax man. IIRC the Wrigley family had to sell the Cubs to pay the estate taxes.

A big killer for a number of small businesses is the estate taxes. Farms and stores hold a lot of value in their land or merchandise, but they're simply not liquid. So families have to sell the businesses rather than hand them down to their children, no matter how much sweat equity their children may have put into the operation.

 

[joecct]

Re: Dead!!!!

Re: Dead!!!!

Amen to that Joe-we have had to make extensive plans and change them frequently over the past years. It is not like we have all that much-but everything we do have, we worked for(both my wife and i came from what we used to call lower middle class(perhaps we were really upper lower class). We had nothing, inherited nothing but our parent's debts to pay, took care of our parents as they aged, paid for raising our children and everything that entailed and worked for every penny we saved or invested with the money we had left over after paying all the taxes levied upon us. All we ask is that anything left over when we are both gone-go fully to where we decide it should. Hopefully we have prepared correctly.

BTW, NJ has an estate AND inheritance tax. When Mom died her estate got caught paying both. With a little bit of planning she could have avoided all of it, but NO she was too stubborn and said that what the heck did she care, she'd be dead. So Trenton got a fat $50,000+ check.

That made me think that tax avoidance is a very good thing.

 

[Priceless]

Re: Strands in the Tapestry: the Business, Economics, and Tax Policy Thread

Well they will be unless there has been some creative (but legal) stuff to keep the assets away from the tax man. IIRC the Wrigley family had to sell the Cubs to pay the estate taxes.

Actually, Bud was the Junior, his dad was CEO of Phillips Petroleum. His son died in 1987. His heirs are his two daughters. In addition to the football team, he owns Adams Resources & Energy and lots of real estate. His net worth was about $1.3B, mostly from the football team.

 

[pirate]

As opposed to his heir(s) which did...what to earn that money? Climb out of the right vagina?

Hey, their granddad was smarter, bolder and more successful than most people's...but I forgot...Bud's dad didn't build that.

 

[LynahFan]

Re: Strands in the Tapestry: the Business, Economics, and Tax Policy Thread

In this case, the appreciation of the stake in the titans would have been unrealized capital gains and not previously taxed. So pardon me if I'm not feeling sorry for anyone in this situation.

Has nothing to do with feeling sorry for anyone - couldn't care less about whoever this discussion is about (never heard of him before). Has a lot more to do with indignation that people feel entitled to other people's property, whether it's taking the last crust of bread from a starving child or swiping a nickel off a billionaire's coffee table. If it's not yours, it's not yours.

 

[SJHovey]

Re: Dead!!!!

Re: Dead!!!!

There is probably very little chance that the estate tax will affect me, or probably most of the people on this Board.

But there are two reasons I don't like it. First, the falsehoods that have to be trotted out to argue in favor of it. Second, it's essentially a tax against a tiny, tiny number of citizens, which I think is b.s., even if I'm not in that group.

Supporters always say that it's just a way of fairly taxing unrealized capital gains. Fine, you want to tax it as capital gains, do so. Big difference between calculating a capital gains tax (maybe 20%?) and the estate tax which has a top rate of at least 40% I believe. And I also think there might be different ways of calculating the basis for each.

I think I read one time that it's estimated that there are only something like 50 farms in the entire country that will be affected by an estate tax problem. Whatever the number, it was shockingly small. This was used to counter the argument someone here advanced that it has an adverse impact on small businesses and family farms. So it only affects 50 farms. But why should they be singled out, just because they happened to be successful? A tax against 50 families?

It's a dishonest tax. It's targeted exclusively at the uber-wealthy, just because we think it's unfair they have all that money, and we should get some of it, and because the guy who's being taxed is dead, can't vote anymore, and can't complain about it (it's not the heirs being taxed, people).

You want to tax capital gains, or make the income tax more progressive, fine. Just do it, and stop making people like Dr. D spend their hard earned money screwing around with "estate planning" to try to avoid the "death tax".

 

[ScoobyDoo]

Re: Strands in the Tapestry: the Business, Economics, and Tax Policy Thread

Has nothing to do with feeling sorry for anyone - couldn't care less about whoever this discussion is about (never heard of him before). Has a lot more to do with indignation that people feel entitled to other people's property, whether it's taking the last crust of bread from a starving child or swiping a nickel off a billionaire's coffee table. If it's not yours, it's not yours.

No different than the other side which spends billions lobbying Congress to save themselves trillions in taxes. Hides their money in offshore accounts. Has tax havens cause they're rich enough to have tax havens. All at the same time paying their employees a non-living wage and creating the greatest income disparity between owner and employee ever seen in modern times.

But, yeah, it's all about the jealous serfs.

 

[DrDemento]

Re: Dead!!!!

Re: Dead!!!!

There is probably very little chance that the estate tax will affect me, or probably most of the people on this Board.

But there are two reasons I don't like it. First, the falsehoods that have to be trotted out to argue in favor of it. Second, it's essentially a tax against a tiny, tiny number of citizens, which I think is b.s., even if I'm not in that group.

Supporters always say that it's just a way of fairly taxing unrealized capital gains. Fine, you want to tax it as capital gains, do so. Big difference between calculating a capital gains tax (maybe 20%?) and the estate tax which has a top rate of at least 40% I believe. And I also think there might be different ways of calculating the basis for each.

I think I read one time that it's estimated that there are only something like 50 farms in the entire country that will be affected by an estate tax problem. Whatever the number, it was shockingly small. This was used to counter the argument someone here advanced that it has an adverse impact on small businesses and family farms. So it only affects 50 farms. But why should they be singled out, just because they happened to be successful? A tax against 50 families?

It's a dishonest tax. It's targeted exclusively at the uber-wealthy, just because we think it's unfair they have all that money, and we should get some of it, and because the guy who's being taxed is dead, can't vote anymore, and can't complain about it (it's not the heirs being taxed, people).

You want to tax capital gains, or make the income tax more progressive, fine. Just do it, and stop making people like Dr. D spend their hard earned money screwing around with "estate planning" to try to avoid the "death tax".

SJ: Not only do i resent having to pay a considerable amount of money to our accountant for all sorts of advice on handling our estate(federal and state-since NJ has their hands out as far as the US government)-but the accountant is a mangy little worm that both of us would love not to have to even talk to, much less pay. We put up with him because he has been with us for a long time and he is 2 very important things-honest and incredibly smart.

 

[Priceless]

Re: Dead!!!!

Re: Dead!!!!

BTW, NJ has an estate AND inheritance tax. When Mom died her estate got caught paying both. With a little bit of planning she could have avoided all of it, but NO she was too stubborn and said that what the heck did she care, she'd be dead. So Trenton got a fat $50,000+ check.

That made me think that tax avoidance is a very good thing.

What was the estate tax rate in NJ? The rate in Maine starts at $2,000,000. The federal now starts at $5,250,000. My mother was afraid of having to pay estate tax when my grandmother died and I just laughed. Even with the house, land and the accumulated "stuff" from 92 years of living, we weren't even close to that number.

 

[FreshFish]

Re: Dead!!!!

Re: Dead!!!!

There is often a substantial difference between a sensible concept and the way the concept is then implemented.

While I've never seen it advocated in the way I'm about to present it, I do believe there is a reasonable and sensible argument to be made in theory in favor of an estate tax. The way the concept is actually implemented however is bass-ackward.

Let's start with basic partnership law: while both partners are alive, they share in the fruits of the partnership. When one partner dies, absent an agreement to the contrary, partnership assets are liquidated and split among the surviving partners and the heirs of the dead partner.

Zoning laws, police departments, and the courts all protect and enforce property rights. No one can accumulate an estate without property rights. One can say with some justification that municipalities and states operate in partnership with successful individuals that allow these people to accumulate substantial assets during their lifetimes. At death, it does seem fair to me that the fruits of this partnership be shared among the partners.

True, successful individuals also have supported municipalities and states during their lifetimes with property taxes and income taxes. Just as partners during a partnership draw income from the partnership to pay for living expenses. I am not persuaded that because people paid property taxes and income taxes while they are alive, they should not somehow pay estate taxes at death, any more than I am persuaded that since partners drew income from the partnership while alive, they should not divide partnership assets at death.

Everyone has a choice in their estate plan: they can split their assets between heirs and the government, or they can split assets between heirs and charity (to me, the ideal estate plan is one in which the entire inheritance is provided by estate-tax free life insurance proceeds while the entire estate is left to charity: notice that just about every famous dead wealthy person now has a foundation in his/her name, while their heirs also are wealthy).

The problem to me with the current estate tax structure is that the federal government keeps most of the money they collect. I do understand that to avoid the "free rider" problem, a national estate tax makes sense in theory; however it seems to me that the federal government should keep only 15% or so of the proceeds and the remainder should be distributed equally to all municipalities across the country.

What really poisons the discussion is the money lust and the invidious envy that seems to motivate most people who clamor for other people's property to be confiscated. Note that I am NOT advocating any kind of "taxation" in the traditional sense: I am merely recognizing how partnerships operate, and observing that municipalities and successful people partner in promoting wealth creation and wealth accumulation.