Strands in the Tapestry: the Business, Economics, and Tax Policy Thread

[FreshFish]

Re: Strands in the Tapestry: the Business, Economics, and Tax Policy Thread

Food for thought:

the difference between cats and dogs. When you get up in the morning and feed your dog he looks up at you and thinks: "She comes, finds my food and pours it for me—she must be a god." A cat thinks: "She comes, finds my food and pours it out for me—I must be a god."

Politicians—no matter how they started out, with what modesty or inner sense of stability—tend to wind up as cats. They come to think "the people" are there to meet their needs—to provide the money they allocate, for instance. They come to think taxpayers are there to pay for their staffers, who in turn are there to meet their needs, and their benefits packages.

If I could figure out the language, I'd love to draft (and see enacted!) a constitutional amendment at both the state and federal level that would say no career politician would ever be eligible to be elected to public office. The idea that one's election or re-election is the single most important thing, and how they then serve is mostly irrelevant except as to how it affects the next election, is a slow poison that's draining us all of energy and a greater purpose.

We'll never have a sensible tax policy with career politicians because a complicated tax structure is lifetime job security: keep that lobbyist money rolling in, boys and girls, we'll keep carving out special exemptions left and right as long as you pay us enough!

 

[Rover]

Re: Strands in the Tapestry: the Business, Economics, and Tax Policy Thread

Fascinating study about the labor force:

http://www.urban.org/UploadedPDF/412880-why-are-fewer-people.pdf

Read it for yourself but the gist of it is that contrary to popular perception, the decline in labor force participation isn't because people have stopped looking for jobs. Although that is part of the problem for older men (like pretty much all the USCHO conservatives out here ) who can choose to retire, the priimary cause is young people not entering the workforce in their teens and 20's, presumably because they're staying in school. There's also a drop off of younger women which could correspond to starting families and getting by on one income (a couple of women in my office did that after having their first child).

 

[FreshFish]

Re: Strands in the Tapestry: the Business, Economics, and Tax Policy Thread

On a discussion board on a different site, I had posted that, in reading through the Affordable Care Act, that sections of it looked like overeager college students who were undoubtedly intelligent but lacked any experience or industry-specific knowledge had read a few articles on the internet and copied and pasted stuff from them with little understanding of what they really meant or how they might fit together as a whole. One section might make a kind of twisted sense, another section might make a kind of twisted sense, but when you put them both together, they are totally incompatible with each other.

I received a reply from an engineer who described a breakfast session a friend of his had attended with David E. Cole, Chairman of the Center for Automotive Research (CAR).

In his presentation Mr. Cole told many stories of the difficulty of working with the folks that the Obama administration had sent, supposedly to save said industry. There have been many meetings where this very experienced automotive expert has had to listen to a newcomer to the industry; someone with zero manufacturing experience, zero auto industry experience, zero business experience, zero finance experience, zero engineering experience, tell them how to run their business.

Mr. Cole's favorite story is as follows: There was a team of Obama people speaking to Mr. Cole. They were explaining to Mr. Cole that the auto companies needed to make a car that was electric and liquid natural gas (LNG) with enough combined fuel to go 500 miles, so we wouldn't "need" so many gas stations. They were quoting BTU's of LNG and battery life they had looked up on some website. [hmm...perhaps my story reminded him of this phrase in his anecdote? Anyway....]

Mr. Cole explained that to do this you would need a trunk FULL of batteries, and a LNG tank as big as a car to make that happen. And that there were problems related to the laws of physics that prevented them from...

The Obama person interrupted and said (and I am quoting here),
"These laws of physics? Whose rules are those? We need to change that (while others wrote down the name of the law so they could look it up). We have the Congress, and the administration. We can repeal that law, amend it, or use an executive order to get rid of that problem. That's why we are here, to fix these sort of issues."

Apparently, the gist of the article is true, except that in the original, it is members of Congress, and not Oblamer administration officials, who proposed the legislative "fix" to the laws of physics.

Funny how stories evolve in the telling, eh?


I can just see the headlines:

"Members of Congress Propose Reforms to the Laws of Thermodynamics!"
"Entropy is just costing us too much energy: we need to change that" says their spokesperson.

 

[Rover]

On a discussion board on a different site, I had posted that, in reading through the Affordable Care Act, that sections of it looked like overeager college students who were undoubtedly intelligent but lacked any experience or industry-specific knowledge had read a few articles on the internet and copied and pasted stuff from them with little understanding of what they really meant or how they might fit together as a whole. One section might make a kind of twisted sense, another section might make a kind of twisted sense, but when you put them both together, they are totally incompatible with each other.

I received a reply from an engineer who described a breakfast session a friend of his had attended with David E. Cole, Chairman of the Center for Automotive Research (CAR).




I can just see the headlines:

"Obama Administration Proposes Reforms to the Laws of Thermodynamics!"
"Entropy is just costing us too much energy: we need to change that" says spokesperson.

FISHY YOU'RE BUSTED AND EXPOSED AS A FRAUD!!!

From snopes.com:

http://www.snopes.com/politics/obama/physics.asp



What an idiot. Read the part at the end, the quote from Dr. Cole.

 

[FreshFish]

Re: Strands in the Tapestry: the Business, Economics, and Tax Policy Thread

From snopes.com:

http://www.snopes.com/politics/obama/physics.asp

Yes, the gist of the anecdote actually is true, according to the article: several members of Congress (albeit not members of the Oblamer administration) actually did suggest that.

Apparently whomever posted the story on that discussion board got the "fish tale" veresion instead.

Sounds like you were worried there that it might be true, that you went to so much effort so quickly to try to debunk it.

 

[LynahFan]

Re: Strands in the Tapestry: the Business, Economics, and Tax Policy Thread

Yes, the gist of the anecdote actually is true, according to the article: several members of Congress (albeit not members of the Oblamer administration) actually did suggest that.

Apparently whomever posted the story on that discussion board got the "fish tale" veresion instead.

Sounds like you were worried there that it might be true, that you went to so much effort so quickly to try to debunk it.

Lame. I'm sure it took you longer to type up your message than for Rover to debunk it.

I have a gut feeling that the congressmen Cole referred to were far more likely to be young earth creationists than bleeding heart environmentalists.

 

[St. Clown]

Re: Strands in the Tapestry: the Business, Economics, and Tax Policy Thread

Yes, the gist of the anecdote actually is true, according to the article: several members of Congress (albeit not members of the Oblamer administration) actually did suggest that.

Apparently whomever posted the story on that discussion board got the "fish tale" veresion instead.

Sounds like you were worried there that it might be true, that you went to so much effort so quickly to try to debunk it.

The problem is, if Snopes is right, is that it happened a few years before Obama took office, and it had to do with the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics. Though, like you said, it was a meeting some Congressional people.

 

[Rover]

Re: Strands in the Tapestry: the Business, Economics, and Tax Policy Thread

Thank you Lynah. Restoring my faith that people can be conservative but not be a BS artist. I'd mention something about Fishy claiming his engineer friend knew somebody who went to the presentation with Dr. Cole, when in fact this is all a made up and debunked internet rumor from 4 years ago, but I think I've made my point. Didn't know Fishy was Bobby Jindal though (for those who recall his disasterous State of the Union rebuttal where he got caught making up a story that he's yet to live down).

 

[FreshFish]

Re: Strands in the Tapestry: the Business, Economics, and Tax Policy Thread

The problem is, if Snopes is right, is that it happened a few years before Obama took office, and it had to do with the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics. Though, like you said, it was a meeting some Congressional people.

For me at least, the important part of the story is that professional politicians don't believe any limits apply to them, that they can do whatever they want, merely because they are in office.

I had my doubts that the Obama part was true, it sounded like an apocryphal story. To have Rover confirm the substantive part of the story was beyond great, as the essential lesson is that politicians in general are ignorant of constraints imposed by nature and by math. Given his myopic obsession with short-term partisan warfare, it was especially gratifying to have him of all people validate the story! He thought he was cleverly rebutting something yet wound up proving my point for me instead! That was fun.

 

[Rover]

For me at least, the important part of the story is that professional politicians don't believe any limits apply to them, that they can do whatever they want, merely because they are in office.

I had my doubts that the Obama part was true, it sounded like an apocryphal story. To have Rover confirm the substantive part of the story was beyond great, as the essential lesson is that politicians in general are ignorant of constraints imposed by nature and by math. Given his myopic obsession with short-term partisan warfare, it was especially gratifying to have him of all people validate the story! He thought he was cleverly rebutting something yet wound up proving my point for me instead! That was fun.

Man are you lame. You sound like Karl Rove on the set of Fox News on Election night.

 

[joecct]

Re: Strands in the Tapestry: the Business, Economics, and Tax Policy Thread

For me at least, the important part of the story is that professional politicians don't believe any limits apply to them, that they can do whatever they want, merely because they are in office.

I had my doubts that the Obama part was true, it sounded like an apocryphal story. To have Rover confirm the substantive part of the story was beyond great, as the essential lesson is that politicians in general are ignorant of constraints imposed by nature and by math. Given his myopic obsession with short-term partisan warfare, it was especially gratifying to have him of all people validate the story! He thought he was cleverly rebutting something yet wound up proving my point for me instead! That was fun.

If you have a bi partisan electorate (rarer these days), you have to respond to everyone. If you are assured of election then you can do pretty much as you want, just as long as you don't do a 180 on the people that got you there.

And that, folks, explains why our political system is so *** up right now.

 

[unofan]

Re: Strands in the Tapestry: the Business, Economics, and Tax Policy Thread

He thought he was cleverly rebutting something yet wound up proving my point for me instead!

Wow. Denial clearly isn't a just a river in Egypt.

 

[LynahFan]

Re: Strands in the Tapestry: the Business, Economics, and Tax Policy Thread

Wow. Denial clearly isn't a just a river in Egypt.

Seriously. He starts relating this to the PPACA, refers to the CIC as "Oblamer," posts an anecdote that refers to the goat of the story as "The Obama person," and then tries to claim that he was really talking about politicians in general. Ummmmm, no.

 

[FreshFish]

Re: Strands in the Tapestry: the Business, Economics, and Tax Policy Thread

The problem with raising tax rates is that not everyone is content merely to go along and pay them. People do adjust their behavior. A high percentage of nothing isn't worth nearly as much as a lower percentage of a substantial amount.

Globally, more U.S. citizens have renounced their citizenship in the first and second quarters [of 2013] than all of 2012 combined, and 2013 is already on track to becoming a record year for renunciations. A total of 1,130 names appeared on the latest list of renunciations from the Internal Revenue Service, according to Andrew Mitchel, a tax lawyer who tracks the data. That is far above the previous high of 679, set in the first quarter, and more than were reported in all of 2012

 

[Rover]

The problem with raising tax rates is that not everyone is content merely to go along and pay them. People do adjust their behavior. A high percentage of nothing isn't worth nearly as much as a lower percentage of a substantial amount.

Do you support people renouncing their country for money, Fishy? I can think of few things more scummy than this, but I'm curious what some of the other cons (Opie, Flaggy, joecct, etc) fell about this practice...

 

[unofan]

The problem with raising tax rates is that not everyone is content merely to go along and pay them. People do adjust their behavior. A high percentage of nothing isn't worth nearly as much as a lower percentage of a substantial amount.

Only if you presume we're on the wrong side of the laffer curve. Which the vast majority of economists believe is not the case.

Otherwise, the impact of those most selfish of ******s running from their civic duties are outweighed by the higher taxes collected from those who remain.

In other words, we shouldn't make policy for millions based on the anecdote of a couple hundred blowhards.

 

[joecct]

Do you support people renouncing their country for money, Fishy? I can think of few things more scummy than this, but I'm curious what some of the other cons (Opie, Flaggy, joecct, etc) fell about this practice...

People renounce their country for a lot of reasons - taxes being one of them. There have been other reasons
* religious freedom
* compulsory military service
* political freedom

How many Euros declare residence in Monaco or Switzerland to avoid high taxes? I would venture that their political beliefs are not questioned.

 

[FreshFish]

Re: Strands in the Tapestry: the Business, Economics, and Tax Policy Thread

Justice Learned Hand: Any one may so arrange his affairs that his taxes shall be as low as possible; he is not bound to choose that pattern which will best pay the Treasury; there is not even a patriotic duty to increase one's taxes. [emphasis added]
Helvering v. Gregory, 69 F.2d 809, 810-11 (2d Cir. 1934).


Who am I to argue?

 

[FreshFish]

Re: Strands in the Tapestry: the Business, Economics, and Tax Policy Thread

Do you support people renouncing their country for money, [Mr.] Fish?

Do you think reporters 'support' a story when they report it? Does the FAA "want to" see planes crash so that they can go out and investigate what went wrong?

You come across as a person who would curse out the canary in the coal mine for fainting like some weakling! The canary should just buck up and keep breathing in that carbon monoxide and like it too, right?

 

[unofan]

Do you think reporters 'support' a story when they report it?

Back to the "I'm just asking questions" routine? How droll.