Socialized medicine a failure.

[gojackets]

Re: Socialized medicine a failure.

I've got some doctor friends including an anesthesiologist, who are quite ****ed at Obama for this socialist nonsense. They're wondering very loudly, why not Tort reform???

They're also forming groups to fight this. If the current bill passes you'll be hearing about Doctors refusing to treat patients on the government plan. Why? because they won't get paid. It may seem greedy but, hey, someone who spends 12 years of their lives making nothing, just educating themselves, should get their just desserts when they finally get to work and keep people healthy or try as hard as they can to fix people's health issues.

Why aren't they going to get paid? Of course the doctors are going to be ****ed. They won't get as much of a kickback from insurance companies and prescription companies and all that, their salary won't go down.

All I know is that when my sister-in-law needed an emergency appendectomy, they went to the closest hospital, asked if it was in their insurances network, was told it was. Later they get a 10,000 dollar bill in the mail because it wasn't. There is something wrong with the system and it needs to change. I went 8 years without health insurance and it was horrible. I'm still paying bills from a trip to the emergency room/hospital stay for when I went a week and a half with strep and bronchitis without going to the doctor because I didn't have insurance.

 

[solovsfett]

Re: Socialized medicine a failure.

Why aren't they going to get paid? Of course the doctors are going to be ****ed. They won't get as much of a kickback from insurance companies and prescription companies and all that, their salary won't go down.

you mean like the car dealerships getting paid for clash for clunkers?

that's what I/they mean when they say they're boned with this plan... the government doesn't have the wherewithall that socialists always believe. It's always the "looks good on paper" argument. These doctors are way more in the game, and have no reason to lie about it.

and if it lends credibility to my argument I'm 1/2 Cuban, and having 50% of your family born and raised in Cuba gives you a VERY different perspective on the "coolness" of "free" healthcare, as well as its practical implementation. It just doesn't work. If or when I get cancer, or if I feel a lump somewhere, I'm not going to be willing to wait 5-6 months for a thorough exam and x-rays.

and it's always "this is for the greater good"....who establishes what that exactly means?

it's a myth. for myself, I'm unwilling to pay 40-60% income tax for this. I'm sorry, I just disagree with that.

 

[solovsfett]

Re: Socialized medicine a failure.

Why aren't they going to get paid? Of course the doctors are going to be ****ed. They won't get as much of a kickback from insurance companies and prescription companies and all that, their salary won't go down.

All I know is that when my sister-in-law needed an emergency appendectomy, they went to the closest hospital, asked if it was in their insurances network, was told it was. Later they get a 10,000 dollar bill in the mail because it wasn't. There is something wrong with the system and it needs to change. I went 8 years without health insurance and it was horrible. I'm still paying bills from a trip to the emergency room/hospital stay for when I went a week and a half with strep and bronchitis without going to the doctor because I didn't have insurance.

and to your point about kickbacks....really? Because my doctor pals aren't getting those, though it would help them if they did, to pay off their education bills. what they are getting though is a serious hit in terms of insurance for medical malpractice. When your paying in the upper 5 figures for that bs you know the system is screwed. TORT reform please?

 

[5mn_Major]

Re: Socialized medicine a failure.

and to your point about kickbacks....really? Because my doctor pals aren't getting those, though it would help them if they did, to pay off their education bills. what they are getting though is a serious hit in terms of insurance for medical malpractice. When your paying in the upper 5 figures for that bs you know the system is screwed. TORT reform please?

Insurance companies adding costs...while adding little value is worthy of revamping healthcare all by itself.

you mean like the car dealerships getting paid for clash for clunkers?

that's what I/they mean when they say they're boned with this plan... the government doesn't have the wherewithall that socialists always believe.

it's a myth. for myself, I'm unwilling to pay 40-60% income tax for this. I'm sorry, I just disagree with that.

I would believe the percentage of people supporting capitalism in the US is somewhere north of 95%. Where are these socialists of which you speak?

You got some hard numbers showing how half your taxes will be going to healthcare under the new programs?

 

[solovsfett]

Re: Socialized medicine a failure.

Insurance companies adding costs...while adding little value is worthy of revamping healthcare all by itself.



I would believe the percentage of people supporting capitalism in the US is somewhere north of 95%. Where are these socialists of which you speak?

You got some hard numbers showing how half your taxes will be going to healthcare under the new programs?

the UK tax rate is now approaching 50% if I'm reading the papers correcty. and if you read about their rationing, it's just unbelievable. But that makes sense, in this country you could never pay for healthcare for 320 million people *without* raising taxes to 50% or more. I'm not down with that for any reason.

there is no way 95% of people in the US believe in capitalism. Most of my friends voted Obama and outright state they want socialism in this country as the form of government. I'd say 55-60% of people right now believe in capitalism, 20% socialism, and the rest don't know or don't care.

and where are these socialists? Are you serious? when was the last time someone outside of Foxnews, asked Obama a serious question on public policy. This is the most anti-constitution, anti-free speech politician we've had in the whitehouse.

College professors (to which many were surprised/shocked when I told them Cubans revere Reagan/Ollie North etc), mainstream news reporters, about 20% or so of people who voted for Obama. those are your socialists. or the ones of which I speak. When a college professor sits there spending about 15% of class time discussing politics, ripping Reagan, ripping Bush, ripping conservatism, and then extolling the virtue's of european, (or worse) south american socialism, ripping the country, I don't know what else to call them....? ill informed?

 

[ScottM]

Re: Socialized medicine a failure.

what they are getting though is a serious hit in terms of insurance for medical malpractice. When your paying in the upper 5 figures for that bs you know the system is screwed. TORT reform please?

Upper five figures? I know a few neuro and orthopaedic surgeons who might think that's a bargain. And these guys have have never been sued, but they practice "defensive" medicine to the nth degree to keep it that way.

 

[5mn_Major]

Re: Socialized medicine a failure.

there is no way 95% of people in the US believe in capitalism. Most of my friends voted Obama and outright state they want socialism in this country as the form of government. I'd say 55-60% of people right now believe in capitalism, 20% socialism, and the rest don't know or don't care.

and where are these socialists? Are you serious? when was the last time someone outside of Foxnews, asked Obama a serious question on public policy. This is the most anti-constitution, anti-free speech politician we've had in the whitehouse.

I see so ripping Reagan (under whom the deficit balooned) and Bush (who had a very bad track record with the economy) is socialism...but ripping Obama is capitalist?

...and only just over half of Americans believe in capitalism? I'd guess we'd see quite a few on this board that don't then. Just which posters here do not believe in capitalism?

 

[solovsfett]

Re: Socialized medicine a failure.

I see so ripping Reagan (under whom the deficit balooned) and Bush (who had a very bad track record with the economy) is socialism...but ripping Obama is capitalist?

...and only just over half of Americans believe in capitalism? I'd guess we'd see quite a few on this board that don't then. Just which posters here do not believe in capitalism?

no, ripping on Reagan or Bush does not make you a socialist. what makes you a socialist is voting for someone who's worldview is that of Saul Alinsky. If you're fine with government takeovers of the financial sector, GM, bailouts of newspapers, takeover of healthcare, THAT, imo, would make one a socialist.

you asked who were socialists, maybe I didn't highlight very well why I thought some of those professors or others were mentioned. I guess it occurs to me that when you rip your county and pine for the EU or S.A. style socialism that you might be a socialist.

as far as this board I could care less who is or who isn't whatever. I'm just throwing .02 at the debate.

 

[Timothy A]

Re: Socialized medicine a failure.

I see so ripping Reagan (under whom the deficit balooned) and Bush (who had a very bad track record with the economy) is socialism...but ripping Obama is capitalist?

...and only just over half of Americans believe in capitalism? I'd guess we'd see quite a few on this board that don't then. Just which posters here do not believe in capitalism?

Most folks don't know what true capitalism is. I define it as economic survival of the fittest through innovation, quality and a smart business sense. Anytime a private business gets a tax break or money from a government entity or governmental competetive regulation is introduced, capitalism is compromised. This is rampant these days. I contend if you support the bailouts (or unions), you don't beleive in capitalism.

 

[Kepler]

Re: Socialized medicine a failure.

Most folks don't know what true capitalism is. I define it as economic survival of the fittest through innovation, quality and a smart business sense. Anytime a private business gets a tax break or money from a government entity or governmental competetive regulation is introduced, capitalism is compromised. This is rampant these days. I contend if you support the bailouts (or unions), you don't beleive in capitalism.

Then again, if that's your definition of Capitalism then it's never existed in the real world and never will. For example, by that definition Adam Smith would be a raging Socialist.

In one sense, Capitalism and Socialism are two hypothetical points on a spectrum ranging from laissez faire to regulation, with real systems always floating around in between.

In another sense, Capitalism and Socialism are virtually superimposed points on a spectrum ranging from Materialist doctrines to the deontological ethics that dominated human thought from the beginning of history until about 500 years ago.

 

[French Rage]

Re: Socialized medicine a failure.

deontological ethics

Dentists?

 

[ScottM]

Re: Socialized medicine a failure.

Dentists?

Anti-dentites ...

 

[French Rage]

Re: Socialized medicine a failure.

Anti-dentites ...

They should go to their own schools...

 

[Kepler]

Re: Socialized medicine a failure.

Dentists?

Kind of.

 

[geezer]

Re: Socialized medicine a failure.

Then again, if that's your definition of Capitalism then it's never existed in the real world and never will. For example, by that definition Adam Smith would be a raging Socialist.

In one sense, Capitalism and Socialism are two hypothetical points on a spectrum ranging from laissez faire to regulation, with real systems always floating around in between.

In another sense, Capitalism and Socialism are virtually superimposed points on a spectrum ranging from Materialist doctrines to the deontological ethics that dominated human thought from the beginning of history until about 500 years ago.

I was just going to say that. Plus, cake is good.

 

[Slap Shot]

Re: Socialized medicine a failure.

I've got some doctor friends including an anesthesiologist, who are quite ****ed at Obama for this socialist nonsense. They're wondering very loudly, why not Tort reform???

I too ask, "Why not Tort reform?" but my curiosity perks up when someone tries to make an argument with, "I know people in the industry and they say blah, blah, blah...".

That said take this commentary fwiw given Coleman is a raving liberal:

Can the Mad As Hell Doctors counter America's nasty case of the Slime Flu? (excerpted)

A group of crusading physicians calling themselves the Mad As Hell Doctors stopped in Minnesota last week on a tour from Oregon to Washington, D.C., to whip up support for a single-payer health care system, a plan they call "Medicare for All."

Before the Mad As Hell Doctors even pulled up in front of the State Capitol on Wednesday (in a Winnebago plastered with slogans such as "Single Payer or Bust!" and "Get Mad! Stay Mad! Make History!"), two things had happened to take some of the wind out of their sails:

1) A yearlong effort by the U.S. Senate to produce a health care reform plan that both parties could support brought forth a turkey that no one liked and few supported -- a plan without any "public option" whatsoever.

2) Conservative Republicans, including candidate for governor Tom Emmer, expanding on Gov. Tim Pawlenty's cockeyed threat to use the 10th Amendment to have Minnesota "opt out" of health care reform, proposed an amendment to the state Constitution "guaranteeing" a citizen's right to buy private health insurance. Next on the ballot: An amendment to guarantee your right to buy police and fire protection from private vendors so you don't have to rely on public safety services. (Word to the wise: Don't tell a cop or firefighter he is a freedom-sucking socialist.)

There have been positive developments, too: More than 70 legislators have signed on to a bill that would provide single-payer health insurance to all Minnesotans, a plan supported by 400 Minnesota doctors who belong to Physicians for a National Health Plan (that's the group that sponsored the Mad Doctors' visit).

The fighting physicians brought their righteous anger to the Capitol rotunda and tried to prod Minnesota's conscience about reforming a system that offers great care to those who can afford it, but lets millions rely on emergency rooms (including the "illegal immigrants" who even Barack Obama has deemed unworthy of routine health care).

"Americans are going bankrupt from health care bills," a retired doctor named Robert Seward told a crowd of supporters in the rotunda. Another retired doctor, Joe Eusterman, said true reform was being obstructed by "lies and fear-mongering."

My point is I think depends upon who you ask, even if I still don't support any current plan I've seen proposed.

 

[Bill]

Re: Socialized medicine a failure.

In another sense, Capitalism and Socialism are virtually superimposed points on a spectrum ranging from Materialist doctrines to the deontological ethics that dominated human thought from the beginning of history until about 500 years ago.

Sorry, I can't buy that one. You could also say that on a cosmological spectrum the Earth is a virtually superimposed point with Mercury, but they are still very unlike one another.

Back to Sowell and "Black Rednecks and White Liberals" for a moment, on what basis were you saying that the right doesn't take Sowell seriously and the book didn't exactly make him any friends on that (right) side? He didn't attack conservatives in the book; he did have some heartburn with liberals.

 

[Kepler]

Re: Socialized medicine a failure.

Sorry, I can't buy that one. You could also say that on a cosmological spectrum the Earth is a virtually superimposed point with Mercury, but they are still very unlike one another.

It isn't that they're the same when viewed from a sufficient distance, it's that they are twin philosophies insofar as they are both radically Materialist.

Comparably, medieval Christianity and medieval Islam (or for that matter, the contemporary fundamentalist variety of each) -- enemy philosophies to their adherents for so many reasons -- were virtually the same in that they were theocratic, as opposed to modern secular philosophies.

One of the more ironic aspects of the war between capitalism-haters and socialism-haters is that they are so similar in their obsession with material wealth. They are each arranging deck chairs on the same Titanic.

 

[Kepler]

Re: Socialized medicine a failure.

Back to Sowell and "Black Rednecks and White Liberals" for a moment, on what basis were you saying that the right doesn't take Sowell seriously and the book didn't exactly make him any friends on that (right) side? He didn't attack conservatives in the book; he did have some heartburn with liberals.

Sowell had the right cheering in the aisles until he turned his guns on the Simple Country Folk. When he started calling out white southerners for the same sins as the black inner city (lazy, irresponsible rubes), he stopped getting invited to CPAC.

The way the intellectual right "solved" the "Sowell problem" was to selectively repeat his charges against liberal statism while ignoring his impolite remarks about The Base. The Neocons were always just using that demographic as useful idiots, so they found it pretty easy to do that. But it would be hard for somebody who genuinely identified with the Holy Rollers to forgive and forget -- say, a hypothetical Palin who had the ability and inclination to read something more advanced than Auto Trader.

 

[Bill]

Re: Socialized medicine a failure.

Sowell had the right cheering in the aisles until he turned his guns on the Simple Country Folk. When he started calling out white southerners for the same sins as the black inner city (lazy, irresponsible rubes), he stopped getting invited to CPAC.

The way the intellectual right "solved" the "Sowell problem" was to selectively repeat his charges against liberal statism while ignoring his impolite remarks about The Base. The Neocons were always just using that demographic as useful idiots, so they found it pretty easy to do that. But it would be hard for somebody who genuinely identified with the Holy Rollers to forgive and forget -- say, a hypothetical Palin who had the ability and inclination to read something more advanced than Auto Trader.

But he doesn't throw all white southerners into the same bucket, particularly in recent decades. Should be water under the bridge.