Shannon Miller out at UMD?

[FiveHoleFrenzy]

Re: Shannon Miller out at UMD?

The UM posse is out in full force.

OK you three amigos, let me try to clarify a bit more.

Brookster,

I could have posted positive stories about her that I am aware of but chose not to do so. I could have posted negative stories about her that I am aware of but also chose not to do so because I truly have no skin in this game. But that doesn't mean to say that I haven't appreciated some of the negative points/arguments that the dissenters such as yourself have put forward. I felt no need to add to the list since a lot of what has been posted is apparently well documented or well enough known. As a matter of fact, the negative side is already quite enthusiastically represented here.

So, all I've done by posting some articles is to point out a few things that people may want to consider on the other side of the equation...you know, balance, fairness, equity, objectivity since I find it interesting and since the other side seems to be absent on this board. But, by my doing so, you have concluded that I'm in charge of her cheerleading section. It might be nice if life were black and white like that, but it's not.

Eeyore,

Of course, "assuming what she says is true" and I've explained this here before indicating the possibilities...you seem to have forgotten that. I don't know what lie(s) you are referring to that Berlo may have uttered, since he's been silent on the issue since the first couple of days after he made the announcement. But I will remind you that it has already been proven that he lied initially, thanks to subsequent comments from Black, unless Black was lying when he indicated that he and Berlo had been less than honest when giving their reason for their decision to let her go. So, if you are following along, no matter which way you cut it, at least at the moment, Miller has the credibility, not Berlo...as in 0 for Miller, -1 for Berlo.

Chokepecker,

Yes the article is a lot of rehashed stuff but as I've already pointed out to you, watch the video.

Chokepecker & Brookster,

Of course there is new information in the video unless you guys have been privy to stuff that I am not.

For example, some (I don't think you guys) have bashed her for cutting players last year indicating how cold and cruel that doing so was. In the video she explained a lot of detail including her discussions with Berlo with respect to how that happened and the effort she put in to help place the players so that their needs were best met and that to her knowledge all of them are happy and that she has a good relationship with all of them. Pretty much the opposite picture that some here have been painting and using to bash her with.

She also explained how Berlo bushwacked her...stabbed her in the back. Anyone with an open mind, even if you hate her, would have to give pause (and yes, Eeyore, assuming what she says is true) and think how that might have helped the whole situation get to where it is today.

In pointing these things out I'm not waving Miller pom poms...just pointing them out...not arguing them. But because you guys seem to not want to consider anything but negativity toward her you figure I'm not objective, I'm a shill (and a paid one at that), I have no stones, etc..

Geez, I'd hate to be on trial wrongfully accused of some crime and have you open minded guys sitting on the jury helping to decide my fate. Your attitudes seem to be...if you're not entirely with us you're automatically against us...the Dubya thing.

And lastly Brookster,

We've disagreed in the past at length on something a lot more important than this topic and one where I stood to be ridiculed a lot more than I ever could here, (even if I was supporting Miller), and I had no problem telling you and everyone else where I stood in no uncertain terms. So, you've got to ask yourself, if I did it in that situation why in the world would I not do it in this one? The answer is, I already have done it at least three times now...it's just that you have somehow misunderstood my motives.

PC can be annoying but dude...

 

[ARM]

Re: Shannon Miller out at UMD?

For example, some (I don't think you guys) have bashed her for cutting players last year indicating how cold and cruel that doing so was. In the video she explained a lot of detail including her discussions with Berlo with respect to how that happened and the effort she put in to help place the players so that their needs were best met and that to her knowledge all of them are happy and that she has a good relationship with all of them.

The problem is that it is a double standard. She decides the players are no longer a good fit for UMD. She tells them as much, thanks them for their service, and sends them on the way at the end of the year. That is her right, but it isn't going to earn her a ton of points with the recruiting pool. But she is their boss, and she can decide if they stay or go. The UMD administration decides that she isn't taking the program in the direction they want it to go. They decide not to renew her contract, as opposed to the "firing" line that is constantly being used. If I wished to spin it, that could be a "lie" by Miller, because it is not factual. Should she like it? Of course not, but I've seen enough employer/employee relations to know that people get dismissed all the time for all sorts of actions and inactions, including not being respectful of those in positions of authority. Her players left and made the best of their new situations. Miller chose to go a different route.

She also explained how Berlo bushwacked her...stabbed her in the back. Anyone with an open mind, even if you hate her, would have to give pause (and yes, Eeyore, assuming what she says is true) and think how that might have helped the whole situation get to where it is today.

You have to buy into Miller's side of the argument 100% to get to "stabbed her in the back." It looks to me like he was either being directed to go in a different direction or make cuts that he knew Miller would never accept without going on the kind of crusade that she is currently undertaking. Given even her supporters should concede that she is not an ideal employee when it comes to taking direction, in part because she assumes that her version of events is superior to that of others, I can see where one may think that having her in charge of a reduced women's hockey budget just wasn't going to work well. Berlo made the mistake of not realizing that she would not accept his attempt to sugarcoat the situation, which is now being called by some supposedly neutral observers a "lie." He should have from day one said what he viewed to be the truth. My best guess is that he knew Miller was going to be threatening lawsuits even with a reduced budget, so the decision was made to end the relationship at the end of the year. If she was "hated" as strongly as she contends, she would have been fired on the spot, not non-renewed. And if everyone hates her so much, why was she willing to take a pay cut to stay in an environment where to believe her story, everybody is biased against her and is constantly doing everything they can to worsen her situation? If the situation is so bad, why was she shocked when told she would not be returning? To me, that doesn't smack of being 100% truthful either. I suppose the situation will be described as she was trying to take the high road and not spill all the dirty laundry, but we see where that got Berlo.

At the time, I thought that not renewing her contract was the better way to go about it, but I'm not sure that was ultimately fair to the players. In retrospect, the administration may have been better served by placing Shuler in charge on an interim basis, because it looks like the head coach has put more of her energy into doing interviews than preparing her team over the second half. The Bulldogs showed up in Minneapolis with newspaper articles all around, but with little concept of what they were trying to execute on the ice. I expected more from Miller in her final act on the ice, though not away from it.

 

[Joe Bulldog]

The problem is that it is a double standard. She decides the players are no longer a good fit for UMD. She tells them as much, thanks them for their service, and sends them on the way at the end of the year. That is her right, but it isn't going to earn her a ton of points with the recruiting pool. But she is their boss, and she can decide if they stay or go. The UMD administration decides that she isn't taking the program in the direction they want it to go. They decide not to renew her contract, as opposed to the "firing" line that is constantly being used. If I wished to spin it, that could be a "lie" by Miller, because it is not factual. Should she like it? Of course not, but I've seen enough employer/employee relations to know that people get dismissed all the time for all sorts of actions and inactions, including not being respectful of those in positions of authority. Her players left and made the best of their new situations. Miller chose to go a different route.

You have to buy into Miller's side of the argument 100% to get to "stabbed her in the back." It looks to me like he was either being directed to go in a different direction or make cuts that he knew Miller would never accept without going on the kind of crusade that she is currently undertaking. Given even her supporters should concede that she is not an ideal employee when it comes to taking direction, in part because she assumes that her version of events is superior to that of others, I can see where one may think that having her in charge of a reduced women's hockey budget just wasn't going to work well. Berlo made the mistake of not realizing that she would not accept his attempt to sugarcoat the situation, which is now being called by some supposedly neutral observers a "lie." He should have from day one said what he viewed to be the truth. My best guess is that he knew Miller was going to be threatening lawsuits even with a reduced budget, so the decision was made to end the relationship at the end of the year. If she was "hated" as strongly as she contends, she would have been fired on the spot, not non-renewed. And if everyone hates her so much, why was she willing to take a pay cut to stay in an environment where to believe her story, everybody is biased against her and is constantly doing everything they can to worsen her situation? If the situation is so bad, why was she shocked when told she would not be returning? To me, that doesn't smack of being 100% truthful either. I suppose the situation will be described as she was trying to take the high road and not spill all the dirty laundry, but we see where that got Berlo.

At the time, I thought that not renewing her contract was the better way to go about it, but I'm not sure that was ultimately fair to the players. In retrospect, the administration may have been better served by placing Shuler in charge on an interim basis, because it looks like the head coach has put more of her energy into doing interviews than preparing her team over the second half. The Bulldogs showed up in Minneapolis with newspaper articles all around, but with little concept of what they were trying to execute on the ice. I expected more from Miller in her final act on the ice, though not away from it.

Agree 100%

As devil's advocate, I also find it funny she made more than Sandelin for about ten years (there was even a rumor at one time it was in her contract she could not make less), and she clearly had no issue with that. Also funny the media chooses to ignore that nugget.

 

[Timothy A]

Re: Shannon Miller out at UMD?

If everyone hates her so much, why was she willing to take a pay cut to stay in an environment where to believe her story, everybody is biased against her and is constantly doing everything they can to worsen her situation?

Winner winner chicken dinner. Someone needs to ask Miller this. I'd love to hear her response. She should have just quit on the spot, kept what was left of her reputation intact, and easily got another job. Now she's more radioactive than ever to interview. If you interview her and don't hire her, she'll just scream discrimination on not getting hired when she's probably the most qualified candidate and she'll sue. She's virtually uninteriewable. If have an open coaching spot and you don't interview her, she'll sue you for that. Plus who wants to hire a caustic personality like this?

What is the outcome she wants? Get her job back? Get a boatload of cash? Both?

To me the biggest issue is dumping the players she recruited when she decided she didn't want them anymore. I've been following college hockey for 25 years and you just don't see 20% of a team jettisoned by a sitting coach when there wasn't a conduct issue of some sort. Recruiting them means commitment to them.

 

[Joe Bulldog]

Winner winner chicken dinner. Someone needs to ask Miller this. I'd love to hear her response. She should have just quit on the spot, kept what was left of her reputation intact, and easily got another job. Now she's more radioactive than ever to interview. If you interview her and don't hire her, she'll just scream discrimination on not getting hired when she's probably the most qualified candidate and she'll sue. She's virtually uninteriewable. If have an open coaching spot and you don't interview her, she'll sue you for that. Plus who wants to hire a caustic personality like this?

What is the outcome she wants? Get her job back? Get a boatload of cash? Both?

To me the biggest issue is dumping the players she recruited when she decided she didn't want them anymore. I've been following college hockey for 25 years and you just don't see 20% of a team jettisoned by a sitting coach when there wasn't a conduct issue of some sort. Recruiting them means commitment to them.

I have read where she said she would only return if Berlo is gone...

 

[Blackbeard]

Re: Shannon Miller out at UMD?

PC can be annoying but dude...

That's funny. You've got the wrong guy. On many occasions in this forum I have made it clear that I have little use, if any, for PC (which doesn't necessarily mean that one then can't be polite...it's just that PC takes it several steps further) and I have even given my reasons why. And if you've read enough of my posts I think that it would be quite obvious to you that I'm not a PC kind of guy.

 

[ARM]

Re: Shannon Miller out at UMD?

That's funny. You've got the wrong guy. On many occasions in this forum I have made it clear that I have little use, if any, for PC (which doesn't necessarily mean that one then can't be polite...it's just that PC takes it several steps further) and I have even given my reasons why. And if you've read enough of my posts I think that it would be quite obvious to you that I'm not a PC kind of guy.

The point was that your post was inappropriate for a family-friendly forum.

 

[wwhyte]

Re: Shannon Miller out at UMD?

That's funny. You've got the wrong guy. On many occasions in this forum I have made it clear that I have little use, if any, for PC (which doesn't necessarily mean that one then can't be polite...it's just that PC takes it several steps further) and I have even given my reasons why. And if you've read enough of my posts I think that it would be quite obvious to you that I'm not a PC kind of guy.

I think FiveHoleFrenzy was using PC to mean pokechecker and that your nickname for him was inappropriate.

 

[Cali]

I think FiveHoleFrenzy was using PC to mean pokechecker and that your nickname for him was inappropriate.

Now FHF's post makes sense. Thank you. Acronyms and slang can sometimes be difficult to navigate through.

 

[Blackbeard]

Re: Shannon Miller out at UMD?

I think FiveHoleFrenzy was using PC to mean pokechecker and that your nickname for him was inappropriate.

I suppose that depends on how you take it but, regardless, thanks, missed that.

 

[pgb-ohio]

Re: Shannon Miller out at UMD?

The nickname is an example of humor that should have "stayed in the locker room." Beyond that, Blackbeard has simply been playing devil's advocate. That's not the same thing as being 100% neutral, but so what? It's perfectly reasonable to post quotes and commentary from 3rd parties and invite replies. The anti-Miller viewpoint has been very well represented on this thread. What's wrong with considering both sides?

As for the issue itself, I haven't weighed in to this point. For now, I'll just say I support the viewpoint Bob Gray posted a while back:

UMD alum and long time follower here. A few thoughts.

UMD is certainly within their rights to not renew a contract and Miller's was a bit pricey. That said, her offer to renegotiate, if made in good faith and not acted on by UMD, undermines UMD's standing that this was driven by financial considerations. Even then UMD still seems to be within their rights to not renew the contract anyway. Miller's past success was always going to make it hard to let her go, though the relative lack of recent success makes it a little easier. UMD could and should have been clearer on why her contract is not being renewed, beyond financial considerations that are a bit clouded. Saying nothing more than that they think the program needs a new direction given the lack of success in recent years and issues Miller has had come up at times would have been helpful. I've enjoyed UMD's success over the years but have cringed a bit here and there when Miller has had issues come up. It was always going to get harder for UMD as other programs got stronger. Miller's international recruiting angle was great and paid big dividends for awhile, but that edge she had isn't what it once was and it has seemed that UMD has struggled a bit to stay competitive with the top teams. I can't say I'm impressed with how either side is handling themselves through this process. And I doubt it will get better as both sides lawyer up. Too bad, as this could have been handled so much better all the way around. But, this seems to be how our society all too often is these days.

 

[Blackbeard]

Re: Shannon Miller out at UMD?

The problem is that it is a double standard. She decides the players are no longer a good fit for UMD. She tells them as much, thanks them for their service, and sends them on the way at the end of the year. That is her right, but it isn't going to earn her a ton of points with the recruiting pool. But she is their boss, and she can decide if they stay or go.

Except that you didn't take it all the way. Just because a coach recruits a player doesn't always mean that that player is going to work out...for any of a number of reasons...maybe they turn into a trouble maker and start affecting the team, maybe they give up on the work ethic required and expected of them, maybe they get resentful because they think that they should play more and initially misunderstood what their role was going to be when they were recruited...maybe many other things...as she pointed out, some wanted more of a social life.

To what you've stated I would just further add that she had already recruited these players and then had the meeting with Berlo last summer during which he told her that she needed to win more. She told him that she would then need to make some roster changes, which aren't easy to do as she explained in the interview, to which she claims that he responded "You do what you have to do, I've got your back". So she makes the difficult roster changes (and starts recruiting more Minnesota players as he also requested) and the team starts winning more to the point where they are ranked #6 in the country...meaning that she followed the game plan that he laid out for her and then he lowers the boom on her by informing her that her contract will not be renewed. "I've got your back" alright!

You have to buy into Miller's side of the argument 100% to get to "stabbed her in the back."

What I was referring to was what I just described in the preceding paragraph above as well as the reasons that she claimed were given to her for not increasing her budget so that her program would be more on par with UW, UM and UND...which was "we're not UW or UM or UND, we're MSU and SCSU". But then when she was informed that her contract was not going to be renewed she claimed that she was told that one of the reasons was that she was not competitive with UW, UM and UND! So when it's convenient for him he tells her that comparing their program to UW, UM and UND is ridiculous because they aren't in the same "league"...but when he lowers the boom on her he conveniently cites their not being competitive with UW,UM and UND as one of the reasons. You can't have it both ways. Which is it? I don't think it's either way, I think he was just saying whatever he thought he had to say or thought he could get away with to get out of the room. So, yeah, I would also consider that as his having ambushed her or his having stabbed her in the back. He tells her that she needs to go out on the limb...she trusts him and goes out on that limb and then he saws off the limb. I think it is pretty clear, again, according to her story. But who knows what else might be revealed in the future to colour this one way or another.

 

[ne7minder]

Re: Shannon Miller out at UMD?

. . . Just because a coach recruits a player doesn't always mean that that player is going to work out . . .

I'd buy that if it were a player or two, it is always possible that reality does not match expectations either one side or the other, maybe both. But how many has UMD had, particularly recently, compared to the average? I think just the number indicates something not working as it should. The only explanation I have to go on is Ms. Miller's were she said something along the lines of them not being Bulldog players. That left me wanting someone to ask her how she didn't notice that during the recruiting process. One kid misrepresenting or misidentified I could see but a third of the team?

 

[pokechecker]

Re: Shannon Miller out at UMD?

To what you've stated I would just further add that she had already recruited these players and then had the meeting with Berlo last summer during which he told her that she needed to win more. She told him that she would then need to make some roster changes, which aren't easy to do as she explained in the interview, to which she claims that he responded "You do what you have to do, I've got your back". So she makes the difficult roster changes (and starts recruiting more Minnesota players as he also requested) and the team starts winning more to the point where they are ranked #6 in the country...meaning that she followed the game plan that he laid out for her and then he lowers the boom on her by informing her that her contract will not be renewed. "I've got your back" alright!

you are accepting what she says as truth
does Berlo confirm what she says?

 

[ARM]

Re: Shannon Miller out at UMD?

To what you've stated I would just further add that she had already recruited these players and then had the meeting with Berlo last summer during which he told her that she needed to win more. She told him that she would then need to make some roster changes, which aren't easy to do as she explained in the interview, to which she claims that he responded "You do what you have to do, I've got your back". So she makes the difficult roster changes (and starts recruiting more Minnesota players as he also requested) and the team starts winning more to the point where they are ranked #6 in the country...meaning that she followed the game plan that he laid out for her and then he lowers the boom on her by informing her that her contract will not be renewed. "I've got your back" alright!

She cuts these players, brings in a class that hasn't had a lot of impact and doesn't have any Minnesotans, and this is somehow Berlo's fault? The situation as you describe it doesn't make any sense if offered as an alibi for why UMD is stuck in 4th place again. Sorry, not buying it.

 

[Blackbeard]

Re: Shannon Miller out at UMD?

you are accepting what she says as truth
does Berlo confirm what she says?

How many times do I have to say this?

Yes, according to Miller.

I said this at the bottom of my last response to ARM. I addressed it in my response to Eeyore in my reply to all three of you guys a couple of days ago. I discussed it at further length previously...it's there for you to read if you wish. Yes, of course, my take on things that she has said that have not yet been verified are on the assumption that what she says is true. Like I said previously, she might be a pathological liar but until that is shown to be the case I choose to give her the benefit of the doubt for the reasons that I have previously explained. You know, innocent until proven guilty, not the other way around. You seem to ignore that the only ones, so far, who have shown that they should not be trusted are Berlo and Black.

 

[Eeyore]

Re: Shannon Miller out at UMD?

How many times do I have to say this?

Yes, according to Miller.

I said this at the bottom of my last response to ARM. I addressed it in my response to Eeyore in my reply to all three of you guys a couple of days ago. I discussed it at further length previously...it's there for you to read if you wish. Yes, of course, my take on things that she has said that have not yet been verified are on the assumption that what she says is true. Like I said previously, she might be a pathological liar but until that is shown to be the case I choose to give her the benefit of the doubt for the reasons that I have previously explained. You know, innocent until proven guilty, not the other way around. You seem to ignore that the only ones, so far, who have shown that they should not be trusted are Berlo and Black.

As long as you do NOTHING but present the case from the perspective of everything Miller has said being true, your small print caveats are going to remain unconvincing.

 

[Blackbeard]

Re: Shannon Miller out at UMD?

As long as you do NOTHING but present the case from the perspective of everything Miller has said being true, your small print caveats are going to remain unconvincing.

And exactly how do you walk through your life?...believing/assuming that everything everybody tells you is a lie until you can prove otherwise?

 

[FiveHoleFrenzy]

Re: Shannon Miller out at UMD?

That's funny. You've got the wrong guy. On many occasions in this forum I have made it clear that I have little use, if any, for PC (which doesn't necessarily mean that one then can't be polite...it's just that PC takes it several steps further) and I have even given my reasons why. And if you've read enough of my posts I think that it would be quite obvious to you that I'm not a PC kind of guy.

It should have be quite obvious to you that you didn't need to go the name-calling route on PokeChecker.

 

[Blackbeard]

Re: Shannon Miller out at UMD?

It should have be quite obvious to you that you didn't need to go the name-calling route on PokeChecker.

As I mentioned earlier, I missed your bolding of the name and thought that you were referring to something else. Name calling wasn't the intent, it was a twist of his name in response to his of mine, if I need to explain it.