School Troubles

[leswp1]

Re: School Troubles

Continuation. Why are we putting pressure on folks to get this expensive education in nothingness just to say they have a degree?

 

[bigblue_dl]

Re: School Troubles

Continuation. Why are we putting pressure on folks to get this expensive education in nothingness just to say they have a degree?

I have a friend that went to a very expensive 4 year liberal arts school, got a degree in Art, accumulated tons of debt. Now he is a real estate agent.

 

[jen]

Re: School Troubles

Continuation. Why are we putting pressure on folks to get this expensive education in nothingness just to say they have a degree?

Who decides what "nothingness" degrees are? I agree with CLS (I think ) - if you are just arguing that some people would not benefit from college - absolutely, I agree. Some people maybe have perfect time management skills, already know the value of hard work - or whatever getting a degree would teach them. Some people are probably 100% ready to be a productive member of society after high school. But for others, just the process of getting a degree is often beneficial - regardless of the field.

But degrees in "nothingness" - or working in a field that has nothing to do with your degree doesn't mean your degree wasn't useful. I guess it all depends on why people go to college - luckily, everyone gets to decide for themselves what they want college to be. Some do it to get a job. Some do it to gain critical thinking skills and perspective, regardless of field. Some do it because someone told them they have to. There's room for all of them.

 

[Handyman]

Re: School Troubles

Might be a good idea to consider that not everyone belongs in college. Some people may be brilliant in non-academic ways yet we look at them as non-achievers simply because they didn't do the college thing. I run the church HS group. There are a few kids in there that struggle academically but are amazing artists or even intellectuals. They just can't translate that to paper for what ever reason. (Learning disability being one).

It bugs me that we have so many people graduating from college but have an education that will be useless to them. How many more of them rack up the debt trying to achieve and end up never making it thru? Why is it the college grad statistic it the benchmark rather than something that looks at gainful employment after ending schooling or at a certain age?

Well it used to be college education meant you had a shot at a better life, now everyone has a degree making them worthless. There is nothing wrong with trade schools and the like but they have this stigma that is completely unwarranted.

 

[Handyman]

Re: School Troubles

Who decides what "nothingness" degrees are? I agree with CLS (I think ) - if you are just arguing that some people would not benefit from college - absolutely, I agree. Some people maybe have perfect time management skills, already know the value of hard work - or whatever getting a degree would teach them. Some people are probably 100% ready to be a productive members of society or enter the work force after high school. But for others, just the process of getting a degree is often beneficial - regardless of the field.

So degrees in "nothingness" - or working in a field that has nothing to do with your degree doesn't mean your degree wasn't useful. I guess it all depends on why people go to college - luckily, everyone gets to decide for themselves what they want college to be. Some do it to get a job. Some do it to gain critical thinking skills and perspective, regardless of field. Some do it because someone told them they have to. There's room for all of them.

That depends...sorry but getting a degree in French really isnt going to do much for you. If you have a purpose for it (like teaching French or moving to France) or if your education is free fine have at it...but seriously if you are taking out 20k in loans a year for a degree like that the cost may not be enough for the benefits ya know.

 

[jen]

Re: School Troubles

That depends...sorry but getting a degree in French really isnt going to do much for you. If you have a purpose for it (like teaching French or moving to France) or if your education is free fine have at it...but seriously if you are taking out 20k in loans a year for a degree like that the cost may not be enough for the benefits ya know.

I am pretty sure you do not get to make that decision for everyone.

 

[Handyman]

Re: School Troubles

I am not trying to, but I would give that advice to them if asked is what I am saying.

 

[goldy_331]

Re: School Troubles

I have a friend that went to a very expensive 4 year liberal arts school, got a degree in Art, accumulated tons of debt. Now he is a real estate agent.

Who decides what "nothingness" degrees are? I agree with CLS (I think ) - if you are just arguing that some people would not benefit from college - absolutely, I agree. Some people maybe have perfect time management skills, already know the value of hard work - or whatever getting a degree would teach them. Some people are probably 100% ready to be a productive member of society after high school. But for others, just the process of getting a degree is often beneficial - regardless of the field.

But degrees in "nothingness" - or working in a field that has nothing to do with your degree doesn't mean your degree wasn't useful. I guess it all depends on why people go to college - luckily, everyone gets to decide for themselves what they want college to be. Some do it to get a job. Some do it to gain critical thinking skills and perspective, regardless of field. Some do it because someone told them they have to. There's room for all of them.

Well, as a real estate agent then the process of getting the degree helped him in his eventual field. I mean, if he hadn't gone to all those college parties, he wouldn't know how to schmooze like he needs to in order to be successful in real estate.

 

[jen]

Re: School Troubles

I am not trying to, but I would give that advice to them if asked is what I am saying.

I guess what I'm saying is I wouldn't be so bold as to make the judgement for everyone (or "offer advice" ) that their degrees are not useful unless they get a job in that particular field - regardless of what the degree is in. Not everyone goes to college for the same reasons.

 

[Handyman]

Re: School Troubles

True and I will say that too but I am not going to lie if one of my students asks me I will tell them what I think and then say "remember that my opinion is not the right answer, only you know that" or something similar. They have to do what is best for them and only they know that

 

[huskyfan]

Re: School Troubles

some of the most successful people I know do not have college degrees.

 

[Foxton]

Re: School Troubles

some of the most successful people I know do not have college degrees.

That's funny, some of the least I know don't. Statistically the more education you have the better off you are.

http://www.bls.gov/emp/ep_chart_001.htm

 

[leswp1]

Re: School Troubles

Who decides what "nothingness" degrees are? I agree with CLS (I think ) - if you are just arguing that some people would not benefit from college - absolutely, I agree. Some people maybe have perfect time management skills, already know the value of hard work - or whatever getting a degree would teach them. Some people are probably 100% ready to be a productive member of society after high school. But for others, just the process of getting a degree is often beneficial - regardless of the field.

But degrees in "nothingness" - or working in a field that has nothing to do with your degree doesn't mean your degree wasn't useful. I guess it all depends on why people go to college - luckily, everyone gets to decide for themselves what they want college to be. Some do it to get a job. Some do it to gain critical thinking skills and perspective, regardless of field. Some do it because someone told them they have to. There's room for all of them.

WHat I am trying to say is if kids are pressured to go to college and have no interest other than they are expected it is a lot of money to pay back. I didn't mean that kids should be discouraged from going. If the thing you love isn't high paying then getting that debt and struggling to pay it may not be worth it.

Well, as a real estate agent then the process of getting the degree helped him in his eventual field. I mean, if he hadn't gone to all those college parties, he wouldn't know how to schmooze like he needs to in order to be successful in real estate.

This made me chuckle.

Foxton- I have 2 degrees. In my field the more degrees you have the less you make. Wondering how many of the people with recent degrees are making reasonable money. Lots of anecdotal stories about people with advanced degrees working retail. Haven't seen any recent stats about the % of people just out getting job in their field. The aggregate probably looks better than the recent grad number does.

 

[Patman]

Re: School Troubles

Patman- it has been a long time since you were in HS. You are out of touch and are thinking very simplistically. Many texts take more than 5 yrs to publish. There are some fields that the info doesn't change- I think we could use the math books from the 50s. There are others that the info is fluid. Take Geography or government. They do teach those and they are on the standardized tests the kids must pass. If you don't want the kids to grow up ignorant then a text is not going to cut it for some things without augmentation. In the old days teachers got these resources via snail mail. If I am not mistaken many of the resources are not even available without either downloading or using a disk to get the materials to print. The material changes all the time. Most HS do address current events when discussing government. Are you suggesting that we do not address the newer things simply because the text is wrong a yr after it was published? I highly doubt it.

No, but it shouldn't require glossy photos and another $100... one of my professors wrote his own textbook... he gets $5 on every copy... it costs somewhere around $80 per... it is certainly a specialist book... but it need not cost that much in general.

Books cost a ton of money. Texts for schools at that level are on a par with some of the college texts. Even if you wanted to use the books until they are dead the wear and tear is tremendous and you can't replace it with more of the same. They have new editions all the time, the old edition is not available. This means replacing the lot. Thousands of $ to replace one book for a class. Using the computer allows the school to purchase the rights to certain things without the physical book. Even if the book is purchased, many texts are available on-line with purchase at the same price. The book doesn't need to go home in the backpack and be battered on a daily basis. They last longer.

I'd almost think you were making my point... even if you do replace the book you do it so you replace it with something inexpensive.

Even if you are rigid enough to think on the lines of only offering the three Rs with chalk or whiteboard, the kid needs to learn to utilize the computers for research and other things before he/she hits college. This is what will be required of them when they move on to college and in the real world. Colleges have classes on line, submit papers on-line, and do just about everything on-line. Being ignorant of that would be detrimental. Saying that is OK is not realistic. Having a computer class to deal with this with no computers is like swimming with no water.

Yet, none of these are requirements... colleges have a ton of labs and we're not discussing colleges. But, by and large, instruction can be done by the traditional means... now I'm not saying that computers should all be abolished... but there are a lot of issues there. Point is though, its not a requirement for instruction.

Many of the teachers allow the kids to submit their papers on-line, parents contact the school, teachers and admin via email and they contact each other. In almost all schools the grading is done on the computer which saves paper (I am sure it doesn't save time unless things have changed the last I looked) and allows for all sorts of analysis. Like it or not computers are an integral part of the system. To go without would hinder the kids ability to succeed when they get out in the real world and go on to college. To not have it functioning to submit grades or respond to a parent's question or concern or miss an important notice regarding events in the school is not something that should happen. It loses man hours and teaching time.

You think I wasn't a grad student? I wasn't saying we go back to the stone age.

We are not talking about a computer system to rival MIT here. We are talking about a system that does basic functions. This system is 10 yrs old, I think and is way past its capability to do even the simplist things with any speed, never mind crashing.

so you upgrade on some monitor farm where the physical drives are kept elsewhere. Point being, there are efficiencies to be made... we don't need a series of multimedia rooms to educate. We need quality instruction.

 

[Patman]

Re: School Troubles

Yes but he is also advocating the use of text books that often are irrelevant. Sorry but any history book written in the early 1990s (he said the fall of the USSR) is just antiquated and out of date. Think of everything that has happened in the world since the first Clinton term.

and then think about how many classes actually teach on that material... especially high school classes... how many people were taught WWII in HS? I have a book on the topic of the "Calculus of Variations"... it relates to optimizing integral forms... it cost $12 and it was written in 1953. Many classes can be treated the same way... and hell, in China and India it is treated that way. While I'm sure they update the information in hand the books cost a pittance. Why can't we have it the same way? For that matter, how many people have actually read their textbooks? Around USCHO i'm sure the ratio is much higher but in general many students will never ever extract the value of a glossy diagram with a cartoon. Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to be a luddite... but when foreign nations use books for cents on the dollar and maintain a decently educated class it has to make you challenge some first principles. You think China prints a $125 social studies text for their 6th graders? While I don't want to idealize Chinese society, I think the necessity of such texts are rather questionable when they're just going to be used to curve a kids spine.... so if we're in front of a budget crisis why not find some amenable solutions?

edit: I have to wonder if its possible to formulate an entire Grade 1 to Grade 12 math education into a series of texts costing no more than $120... may be a tad low... $10 per year? I know other subjects aren't so simple... but my mind wonders how simple it could be.

(or how opinions have changed or new evidence has been found) Of course some places like Texas want to write new books that are so ridiculous and wrong maybe we are better off who knows.

Thankfully I have not now, nor have I even been Texas. (I mean this as I wrote it.)

As for computers, I think anything beyond a smartboard in most classes is overkill. Most schools have a computer lab or media center the kids can use and that should be sufficient. JMHO.

There is good and there is superfluous... a decent library and a cheaply set up computer lab is well within the reach of places I would think.

 

[Handyman]

Re: School Troubles

I think you are right when it comes to some subjects especially math and the sciences where much of the info is relatively the same over the decades. America though prides itself on the idea of people being good "citizens" which means a higher knowledge of things like current events, American History and the like. (whereas countries like China do not) The world has been in political upheaval since the fall of the USSR and to ignore that would be rather tragic.

As it is too much stuff is ignored, I mean in all my history classes we spent no more than 3 days on WWI and anything past Korea was glossed over at best. That is terrible IMHO. If you want kids to have a well rounded education (and you may not) that is severely lacking the more you leave out in the social studies.

JMHO but I am biaed.

 

[goldy_331]

Re: School Troubles

JMHO but I am biaed.

On the plus side, you know that the word is "biased" and not "bias" (even if you did have a typo in missing the "s"). I didn't expect that out of a teacher these days.

 

[CLS]

Re: School Troubles

Who decides what "nothingness" degrees are? I agree with CLS (I think ) - if you are just arguing that some people would not benefit from college - absolutely, I agree. Some people maybe have perfect time management skills, already know the value of hard work - or whatever getting a degree would teach them. Some people are probably 100% ready to be a productive member of society after high school. But for others, just the process of getting a degree is often beneficial - regardless of the field.

Yes, we agree.

College does not need to be vocational school for everyone. Given the cost of college these days, and the debt loads that some kids graduate with, the employment opportunities a given major might lead to has to be a major consideration for many. But it doesn’t have to be the only consideration for everyone.

That's funny, some of the least I know don't. Statistically the more education you have the better off you are.

http://www.bls.gov/emp/ep_chart_001.htm

This is just the kind of graph that drives me nuts.

Foxton’s statement is consistent with the graph; statistically the more education you have, the better off you are (or maybe more accurately, the better off you are likely to be). That is coincidence (and I mean that in the statistical sense, not the layman’s sense). But the statement “Education pays”, implying cause and effect, cannot be made from this data alone. It certainly may or may not be true for any one individual.

This isn’t just an academic argument. Simplistic interpretations like this are what leads to the misguided pressure for everyone to go to college, the resultant “nothing degrees” that (I think )leswp1 complains about, and misallocation of resources.

 

[bostonewe]

Re: School Troubles

Yes, we agree.

College does not need to be vocational school for everyone. Given the cost of college these days, and the debt loads that some kids graduate with, the employment opportunities a given major might lead to has to be a major consideration for many. But it doesn’t have to be the only consideration for everyone.


This is just the kind of graph that drives me nuts.

Foxton’s statement is consistent with the graph; statistically the more education you have, the better off you are (or maybe more accurately, the better off you are likely to be). That is coincidence (and I mean that in the statistical sense, not the layman’s sense). But the statement “Education pays”, implying cause and effect, cannot be made from this data alone. It certainly may or may not be true for any individual.
This isn’t just an academic argument. Simplistic interpretations like this are what leads to the misguided pressure for everyone to go to college, the resultant “nothing degrees” that (I think )leswp1 complains about, and misallocation of resources.

Based on this graph, you get the sense that the higher level degrees clearly make the most money, but what isn't taken into account is the cost of getting those degrees and the loans that need to be repaid afterward. Say you go to a decent school for a not terrible price, we'll say 20K, for undergrad. Figure 100K when you graduate in costs (tuition, room, board, books, fun, etc.). Even if your parents can cover half, you're on the hook for 50K.

Then you realize you don't have a soul and you decide to get a law degree. 3 years at 40K (estimate, not sure on the actual cost), translating to 120K after 3 years. Now during this time you might (MIGHT) be able to work a bit during the school year to help pay, but I'm sure you're not making tons, nor are you during the summer those years, so let's say you might be on the hook for 100K. So now, you are all set to rake in the dough with your advanced degree...except you have 150K in student loans to pay.

So while yes, you're in a higher earning bracket, I don't know that your take home pay (after loans) ends up being all that much higher than the average college grad (or vocational school grad). Especially true since you're not likely to start as a full partner in a medium to large firm, which can mean that as an associate in the firm, you might be making about the same as the paralegal (when figuring out hours worked/salary). Over a lifetime, yeah, you probably have more earning potential, but it will take quite some time, I imagine, to get that far.

Anyway - the gist of that unreadable rant is: Yes, higher degree = more potential income, but at the cost of serious student loans/financial responsibilities.

 

[amherstblackbear]

Re: School Troubles

and then think about how many classes actually teach on that material... especially high school classes... how many people were taught WWII in HS? I have a book on the topic of the "Calculus of Variations"... it relates to optimizing integral forms... it cost $12 and it was written in 1953. Many classes can be treated the same way... and hell, in China and India it is treated that way. While I'm sure they update the information in hand the books cost a pittance. Why can't we have it the same way? For that matter, how many people have actually read their textbooks? Around USCHO i'm sure the ratio is much higher but in general many students will never ever extract the value of a glossy diagram with a cartoon. Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to be a luddite... but when foreign nations use books for cents on the dollar and maintain a decently educated class it has to make you challenge some first principles. You think China prints a $125 social studies text for their 6th graders? While I don't want to idealize Chinese society, I think the necessity of such texts are rather questionable when they're just going to be used to curve a kids spine.... so if we're in front of a budget crisis why not find some amenable solutions?

The academic publishing industry is going to fight you tooth and nail on this. But it's a good fight.