School Troubles

[leswp1]

Re: School Troubles

Actually the question of why can other countries do it was serious- Not advocating more cash unless it is needed. We mouth all sorts of stuff about education but do very little to actually fix the system or even analyze it. Adding more programs that duplicate things without fixing old ones, mandating standardized tests that don't really test the parts of ed that they should (Our state does an essay test in 4th grade that consumes all the class time for months. The test is not developmentally sound. There are a fair amount of kids that are not ready to perform this skill at that age.)We mandate special ed but do not fund it. The budget for that in many towns is exponetially growing. How do other countries handle this stuff?

Sadly there may be more money pouring in but it is invisible in this town. The budget has remained static while the school population has increased. Teachers are not getting huge raises or amazing packages. The JHS has no set foreign language. 7th grade nothing. Kids get a semester of each in 8th grade as there are not enough qualified teachers (no honors class in HS as there arent getting the basics early enough to progress to that level). The HS is literally falling apart. The roof leaks and causes the electrics in one wing to short, to turn the auditorium lights on they need to shut everything else off in the wing or the breaker blows, the computer system crashes daily causing the classes to be unable to do what they need, the gym is too small- 1of the 3 classes needs to to sit at a time so they do not participate for a whole class period, no sprinkler system in parts.

They are hoping to renovate the school. The budget to do so is burdened with multiple requirements for bidding, multiple layers of oversite at town and state level (if we use a grant) that make it 2ce as hard as a regular project. A huge part is making everything accessible- the gym needs to be large enough to accomodate the special needs, the doors need to be changed, all sorts of stuff. I don't disagree with the need for accessibility but the cost is massive to retrofit. How do other countries handle this sort of stuff? Do they have requirements?

I do not know the answers but the way we are going about things is quite obviously not working.

 

[Scott W]

Re: School Troubles

Are other countries actually able to do it though? Look how many European countries we have heard about that are so far in debt they need bailouts. It seems to me if they are so massively in debt, they really are not able to do it.

 

[amherstblackbear]

Re: School Troubles

There are 18 EU members with less debt (% GDP) than the U.S and 17 with lower unemployment. I don't think it's an accident that two of the laggards - Italy and Greece - have historically had problems with corruption.

I would guess that, like the United States in the past 10 years, those outliers are just poorly governed across the board.

/digression

 

[Netman]

Re: School Troubles

The countries that do well in education do so because they value an education. Emphasis is placed on it. Inner city schools are in this situation because the students and their families do not see any good coming out of working towards an education. The people that care do well, the ones that do not care take up space and distract the rest. That is the problem. Public schools take everyone. You can lead a horse to water but you can't make them thirsty.

 

[Tundra]

Re: School Troubles

Actually the question of why can other countries do it was serious-

I do not know the answers but the way we are going about things is quite obviously not working.

Answer is simple, Trying to implement it, more difficult. The best OECD testing countries have high standards and faster curriculum and more hours spent in class/homework.

The only exception is Finland. with less class hours. but they do have "better" teachers since only 15% of applicants get accepted. and with better social support.

Instead of more tests for students, just make the subject matter more difficult like Finland or other Asian countries with less repetition.

Weed out the teachers at hiring (15% rate of Finland) instead of trying to measure them after they get hired with no way to fire them (tenure and CBA agreements).

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/edu_edu_spe-education-spending-of-gdp
$1 Cuba 18.7% of GDP
#12 Sweden 7.7% of GDP
#23 Finland 6.4% of GDP
#37 USA 5.7% of GDP
#46 Mexico 5.3% of GDP
#93 Japan 3.6% of GDP

http://www.nationmultimedia.com/2009/09/28/national/national_30113177.php

This was highlighted when Finland reached first or second rankings in the Programme for International Student Assessment (PISA) in 2003 and 2006.

According to Finland's Education Ministry, 6 per cent of gross domestic product goes to education. The country provides free education.

"We have compulsory primary school for nine years. All schools and all universities are financed by local and central governments, which means by our taxes. Books for the compulsory basic education are also free. We have school meals in order to ensure that students have sufficient energy to study," she said.

Facts about the Finnish education system

Dropouts during compulsory primary education, less than 0.5 per cent.

Class repetition, only 2 per cent.

Small betweenschool differences.

190 school days per year, 4 to 7 hours per day.

Moderate amounts of homework, no private lessons after school.

Finnish students work fewer hours per week. Students from some Asian countries also get high PISA results, but as a result of high student workloads.

 

[leswp1]

Re: School Troubles

THanks, that is interesting. Lowering thought that Mongolia and Guyana have a higher investment than we do

 

[Patman]

Re: School Troubles

folks, when you talk about school its about what the money is spent on... as it was said, money doesn't matter if the student doesn't want to learn in the first place... but when they do its pointless to spend a bazillion on a state of the art slate of computers and a multi-million dollar education plan. I look forward to the day where the cities and towns draw their education upon standard texts which cost as much as a subway footlong. Math doesn't require glossy pictures, for instance, not every discipline is that simple.

Seriously though les....

the computer system crashes daily causing the classes to be unable to do what they need

is a sign the teachers not only need to be fired but do so immediately and without second thought. The internet is not a requirement for education in our current age, its a tool. If it has become a non-negligible requirement then we are failing the students. I am of the biggest opinion that the best teaching is done with a piece of chalk or a marker... the rest is useful but possibly superfluous... look at our "golden age of education" when you and others went to school... if things were so much better "then" then wouldn't that mean that the computers and other tools are possibly superfluous? That a bajillion dollar plan to teach a subject is worthless? Yet, we still pay for these things.

If you want to argue salaries and cost then you have to go all the way... the problem is the same as medicine... we want the best that we won't pay for.... and for that matter, people by and large don't trust their own school systems. Reform is stripping down to the fundamentals. We're in an era where a university in the hinterlands of India gives a course on the level of my grad school classes... while they do require the computer all they teach with is a whiteboard. There are very few classes which need an edition printed any time after the fall of the Soviet Union. Not may school systems ever teach the history of the world post-WWII if they even get that far. Why then do we need the newest and glossiest? Why not just replace the old and reliable with like?

Destroy sacred cows and you have the answer... until then, everybody will keep their sacred cows and desire the best that they won't pay for.

 

[leswp1]

Re: School Troubles

folks, when you talk about school its about what the money is spent on... as it was said, money doesn't matter if the student doesn't want to learn in the first place... but when they do its pointless to spend a bazillion on a state of the art slate of computers and a multi-million dollar education plan. I look forward to the day where the cities and towns draw their education upon standard texts which cost as much as a subway footlong. Math doesn't require glossy pictures, for instance, not every discipline is that simple.

Seriously though les....



is a sign the teachers not only need to be fired but do so immediately and without second thought. The internet is not a requirement for education in our current age, its a tool. If it has become a non-negligible requirement then we are failing the students. I am of the biggest opinion that the best teaching is done with a piece of chalk or a marker... the rest is useful but possibly superfluous... look at our "golden age of education" when you and others went to school... if things were so much better "then" then wouldn't that mean that the computers and other tools are possibly superfluous? That a bajillion dollar plan to teach a subject is worthless? Yet, we still pay for these things.

If you want to argue salaries and cost then you have to go all the way... the problem is the same as medicine... we want the best that we won't pay for.... and for that matter, people by and large don't trust their own school systems. Reform is stripping down to the fundamentals. We're in an era where a university in the hinterlands of India gives a course on the level of my grad school classes... while they do require the computer all they teach with is a whiteboard. There are very few classes which need an edition printed any time after the fall of the Soviet Union. Not may school systems ever teach the history of the world post-WWII if they even get that far. Why then do we need the newest and glossiest? Why not just replace the old and reliable with like?

Destroy sacred cows and you have the answer... until then, everybody will keep their sacred cows and desire the best that they won't pay for.

Patman- it has been a long time since you were in HS. You are out of touch and are thinking very simplistically. Many texts take more than 5 yrs to publish. There are some fields that the info doesn't change- I think we could use the math books from the 50s. There are others that the info is fluid. Take Geography or government. They do teach those and they are on the standardized tests the kids must pass. If you don't want the kids to grow up ignorant then a text is not going to cut it for some things without augmentation. In the old days teachers got these resources via snail mail. If I am not mistaken many of the resources are not even available without either downloading or using a disk to get the materials to print. The material changes all the time. Most HS do address current events when discussing government. Are you suggesting that we do not address the newer things simply because the text is wrong a yr after it was published? I highly doubt it.

Books cost a ton of money. Texts for schools at that level are on a par with some of the college texts. Even if you wanted to use the books until they are dead the wear and tear is tremendous and you can't replace it with more of the same. They have new editions all the time, the old edition is not available. This means replacing the lot. Thousands of $ to replace one book for a class. Using the computer allows the school to purchase the rights to certain things without the physical book. Even if the book is purchased, many texts are available on-line with purchase at the same price. The book doesn't need to go home in the backpack and be battered on a daily basis. They last longer.

Even if you are rigid enough to think on the lines of only offering the three Rs with chalk or whiteboard, the kid needs to learn to utilize the computers for research and other things before he/she hits college. This is what will be required of them when they move on to college and in the real world. Colleges have classes on line, submit papers on-line, and do just about everything on-line. Being ignorant of that would be detrimental. Saying that is OK is not realistic. Having a computer class to deal with this with no computers is like swimming with no water.

Many of the teachers allow the kids to submit their papers on-line, parents contact the school, teachers and admin via email and they contact each other. In almost all schools the grading is done on the computer which saves paper (I am sure it doesn't save time unless things have changed the last I looked) and allows for all sorts of analysis. Like it or not computers are an integral part of the system. To go without would hinder the kids ability to succeed when they get out in the real world and go on to college. To not have it functioning to submit grades or respond to a parent's question or concern or miss an important notice regarding events in the school is not something that should happen. It loses man hours and teaching time.

We are not talking about a computer system to rival MIT here. We are talking about a system that does basic functions. This system is 10 yrs old, I think and is way past its capability to do even the simplist things with any speed, never mind crashing.

 

[Shirtless Guy]

Re: School Troubles

Patman- it has been a long time since you were in HS. You are out of touch and are thinking very simplistically. Many texts take more than 5 yrs to publish. There are some fields that the info doesn't change- I think we could use the math books from the 50s. There are others that the info is fluid. Take Geography or government. They do teach those and they are on the standardized tests the kids must pass. If you don't want the kids to grow up ignorant then a text is not going to cut it for some things without augmentation. In the old days teachers got these resources via snail mail. If I am not mistaken many of the resources are not even available without either downloading or using a disk to get the materials to print. The material changes all the time. Most HS do address current events when discussing government. Are you suggesting that we do not address the newer things simply because the text is wrong a yr after it was published? I highly doubt it.

Books cost a ton of money. Texts for schools at that level are on a par with some of the college texts. Even if you wanted to use the books until they are dead the wear and tear is tremendous and you can't replace it with more of the same. They have new editions all the time, the old edition is not available. This means replacing the lot. Thousands of $ to replace one book for a class. Using the computer allows the school to purchase the rights to certain things without the physical book. Even if the book is purchased, many texts are available on-line with purchase at the same price. The book doesn't need to go home in the backpack and be battered on a daily basis. They last longer.

Even if you are rigid enough to think on the lines of only offering the three Rs with chalk or whiteboard, the kid needs to learn to utilize the computers for research and other things before he/she hits college. This is what will be required of them when they move on to college and in the real world. Colleges have classes on line, submit papers on-line, and do just about everything on-line. Being ignorant of that would be detrimental. Saying that is OK is not realistic. Having a computer class to deal with this with no computers is like swimming with no water.

Many of the teachers allow the kids to submit their papers on-line, parents contact the school, teachers and admin via email and they contact each other. In almost all schools the grading is done on the computer which saves paper (I am sure it doesn't save time unless things have changed the last I looked) and allows for all sorts of analysis. Like it or not computers are an integral part of the system. To go without would hinder the kids ability to succeed when they get out in the real world and go on to college. To not have it functioning to submit grades or respond to a parent's question or concern or miss an important notice regarding events in the school is not something that should happen. It loses man hours and teaching time.

We are not talking about a computer system to rival MIT here. We are talking about a system that does basic functions. This system is 10 yrs old, I think and is way past its capability to do even the simplist things with any speed, never mind crashing.

Yes but what Patman is saying is when the computer network isn't working on a Tuesday, the Teacher should still be prepared to teach the lesson and find a way to get the point across without the aid of computers. If you have a system that crashes daily, than you must certainly should be prepared for it and tell the students to bring their books to class every day. Besides, every class doesn't need to be so computer intensive.

 

[leswp1]

Re: School Troubles

Yes but what Patman is saying is when the computer network isn't working on a Tuesday, the Teacher should still be prepared to teach the lesson and find a way to get the point across without the aid of computers. If you have a system that crashes daily, than you must certainly should be prepared for it and tell the students to bring their books to class every day. Besides, every class doesn't need to be so computer intensive.

I get it but- Problem is the thing is more down than up- it mucks up everything, not just classes. Some classes- computer classes, media classes, and some mass communications class (Lil is in the latter) do not have books. The class is based on what is on the internet or how to use the computer programs. How are you, as a teacher, supposed to make a lesson plan that is coherent and moves forward in a manner that makes sense when you never know if you can use the resource you are supposed to? Kind of like teaching swimming without water. Not saying every class is at a halt but the ones that are computer based are a nightmare. Also the school system relies on email for all organizational stuff, and communication both internally and externally. Even messages are thru email. Not very good. The other schools are actually doing OK. It is the HS, which was first in, that is the most aged and falling down. The rest of the schools have no problem using this method.

 

[Shirtless Guy]

Re: School Troubles

I get it but- Problem is the thing is more down than up- it mucks up everything, not just classes. Some classes- computer classes, media classes, and some mass communications class (Lil is in the latter) do not have books. The class is based on what is on the internet or how to use the computer programs. How are you, as a teacher, supposed to make a lesson plan that is coherent and moves forward in a manner that makes sense when you never know if you can use the resource you are supposed to? Kind of like teaching swimming without water. Not saying every class is at a halt but the ones that are computer based are a nightmare. Also the school system relies on email for all organizational stuff, and communication both internally and externally. Even messages are thru email. Not very good. The other schools are actually doing OK. It is the HS, which was first in, that is the most aged and falling down. The rest of the schools have no problem using this method.

Well you need to be more specific. I can complete accept the fact that a computer, media, and mass communications class would grind to a halt.

 

[bostonewe]

Re: School Troubles

I can come to les' defense on the computer issue in classes other than computer science, mass comm., etc. When I was in high school (class of '02, so awhile ago, but not that long ago), we used computers in every class. For chemistry, our teacher was affiliated with Pike's Peak and she could show us videos of her work there as well as digital simulations of molecules (yes, she could have used a normal chemistry molecule kit, but this was more effective as she could angle the compound/molecule a particular way, stretch bonds to demonstrate their strength, and enlarge it so that our whole class could see). In government, the teacher was able to pull up news from BBC and other places and we compared those reports to reports in national US papers (NYT, Washington Post, etc.) and our own local paper. We talked about quality of reporting, bias, different stances based on target market. Could the teacher have gone out and purchased papers from other countries for this lesson? Not in Scranton, Pennsylvania. Could she have taught around the issue, probably, but it was more effective to have actual examples in front of us.

Patman - I also think that the lack of interest in learning is a) not limited to urban areas as many of my classmates in grade school were uninterested in education as they knew that they were going to grow up and work on the family farm and b) not as widespread. I think a cultural lack of focus on important issues is more to blame than the kids. When a coked-out wife-beater makes more news than governments falling and crying overpaid basketball players are more important than healthcare issues...there's a larger problem.

 

[Tundra]

Re: School Troubles

Patman - I also think that the lack of interest in learning is a) not limited to urban areas as many of my classmates in grade school were uninterested in education as they knew that they were going to grow up and work on the family farm and b) not as widespread. I think a cultural lack of focus on important issues is more to blame than the kids. When a coked-out wife-beater makes more news than governments falling and crying overpaid basketball players are more important than healthcare issues...there's a larger problem.

I think the survey shows most kids get bored with school.
http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/edu_stu_att_fin_sch_bor-student-attitude-find-school-boring
even in Finland.:
Student attitude > Dislike of school 26% [12th of 17]
Student attitude > Find school boring 60% [3-5th of 17]
#2 USA: find school boring 61%
#16 Japan: find school boring 32% (too much homework to get bored)

I noticed Finland have 1-9 ... now 1-10th grade instead of our 1-12th grade primary/secondary education. they don't officially start school till 7 vs our 5 yo ... although they do have preschool programs.

I thought it was simple but you got officials and bloggers on both side complaining about their education system.
Finland (And USA): college graduates don't have the right skills.
China (And Asia): college graduates are stifled in creativity.

Tertiary enrollment (college, vocational school)
#1 USA 72.6%
#2 Finland 70.4% (Free college/voc education)
#10 Canada 60%
#29 Japan 47.7%

Tertiary attainment.
#1 Canada 42%
#2 USA 37% (so about 55% graduation?)
#4 Japan 34%
#5 Finland 32%

This complaint by a Finnish blogger has been repeated many times by our business leaders including Bill Gates about not finding enough qualified college graduates. And you got Asian countries complaining about not enough creativity from their college grads.

http://mises.org/daily/4655

Third, with higher education so accessible, it lures thousands of people every year to go for a degree, even though they have no business in the world of academia. This produces a great number of bachelors, masters, and PhDs who don't have any value on the job market because they studied literature, art history, religious studies, or something like that. In many cases, they didn't choose their major because they actually thought it would give them a job; they chose it because it seemed fun or interesting, or it was easier to get into than law school or medical school.

Unemployment among educated people has become a chronic problem. The other side of the coin is that Finland has long had an acute shortage of people with trade skills: carpenters, plumbers, mechanics, and so on � people who can actually provide a valuable service.

And you got people talking about Finland primary school being so successful because of more money, smaller class sizes, when I showed with the graph that we're spending more money per student (#2) and have higher salary for teachers than Finland. I've to wonder where these guys are getting their data. before spouting the "we need more resources" "smaller class size " mantra.

http://nycpublicschoolparents.blogspot.com/2011/01/what-finland-and-asia-really-tell-us.html

Finland�s schools weren�t always so successful. In the 1960s, they were middling at best. In 1971, a government commission concluded that, poor as the nation was in natural resources, it had to modernize its economy and could only do so by first improving its schools. To that end, the government agreed to reduce class size, boost teacher pay, and require that, by 1979, all teachers complete a rigorous master�s program.

They also banned all standardized testing, as they figured out this takes too much time and too much money out of learning; and now they only give standardized exams to statistical samples of students to diagnose and assess school progress

As Jiang Xueqin, the director of the International Division of Peking University High School, wrote in the Wall St. Journal:

According to research on education, using tests to structure schooling is a mistake. Students lose their innate inquisitiveness and imagination, and become insecure and amoral in the pursuit of high scores. Even Shanghai educators admit they're merely producing competent mediocrity. ...This is seen as a deep crisis... A consensus is growing that instead of vaulting the country past the West, China's schools are holding it back.

 

[leswp1]

Re: School Troubles

I think the survey shows most kids get bored with school.
http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/edu_stu_att_fin_sch_bor-student-attitude-find-school-boring
even in Finland.:
Student attitude > Dislike of school 26% [12th of 17]
Student attitude > Find school boring 60% [3-5th of 17]
#2 USA: find school boring 61%
#16 Japan: find school boring 32% (too much homework to get bored)

I noticed Finland have 1-9 ... now 1-10th grade instead of our 1-12th grade primary/secondary education. they don't officially start school till 7 vs our 5 yo ... although they do have preschool programs.

I thought it was simple but you got officials and bloggers on both side complaining about their education system.
Finland (And USA): college graduates don't have the right skills.
China (And Asia): college graduates are stifled in creativity.

Tertiary enrollment (college, vocational school)
#1 USA 72.6%
#2 Finland 70.4% (Free college/voc education)
#10 Canada 60%
#29 Japan 47.7%

Tertiary attainment.
#1 Canada 42%
#2 USA 37% (so about 55% graduation?)
#4 Japan 34%
#5 Finland 32%

This complaint by a Finnish blogger has been repeated many times by our business leaders including Bill Gates about not finding enough qualified college graduates. And you got Asian countries complaining about not enough creativity from their college grads.

http://mises.org/daily/4655


And you got people talking about Finland primary school being so successful because of more money, smaller class sizes, when I showed with the graph that we're spending more money per student (#2) and have higher salary for teachers than Finland. I've to wonder where these guys are getting their data. before spouting the "we need more resources" "smaller class size " mantra.

http://nycpublicschoolparents.blogspot.com/2011/01/what-finland-and-asia-really-tell-us.html

The standard test thing is not surprising at all. Lil's schools in elementary were teaching for the tests. It was ridiculous. They did literally NO science until after the test in May when they did all the science for the yr. Before that it was all prep for this one test that was developmentally inappropriate. It was extrordinarily frustrating.

The 4th grade test is to write a complete long essay on a topic. They had HOURS to do it. What parent would leave a 4th grader to do something for a whole day with just a lunch break? How many of them actually are ready for that? These kids did OK but at the loss of science and many other things they should have been exposed to. They also did minimal social studies. My kid is a history buff and was in a science kick that yr. He is a voracious reader. The next yr he was one of only a few students that didn't struggle in either subject. I love Finlands idea of sample testing.

 

[Handyman]

Re: School Troubles

Yes but what Patman is saying is when the computer network isn't working on a Tuesday, the Teacher should still be prepared to teach the lesson and find a way to get the point across without the aid of computers. If you have a system that crashes daily, than you must certainly should be prepared for it and tell the students to bring their books to class every day. Besides, every class doesn't need to be so computer intensive.

Yes but he is also advocating the use of text books that often are irrelevant. Sorry but any history book written in the early 1990s (he said the fall of the USSR) is just antiquated and out of date. Think of everything that has happened in the world since the first Clinton term. (or how opinions have changed or new evidence has been found) Of course some places like Texas want to write new books that are so ridiculous and wrong maybe we are better off who knows.

If you want to fix the education system in this country it is going to involve a massive (and I do mean MASSIVE) change in the infrastructure. The system will not work, it cannot work to be honest. There is not enough money or time to teach everyone everything and prepare them for life after school. And the fixes are usually worse than the problems. (see: NCLB and Rise to the Top)

I just had to read A Nationa At Risk again for a class and it is downright frightening that 30 years later it is still absolutely right in almost every conclusion it makes. It is not because we dont value education, it is because the way we educate is just outdated and needs to be changed. I dont know how to do it, but just trying to change policies or methods in hopes of fixing everything is like taking an aspirin and hoping it gets rid of your tumor.

As for computers, I think anything beyond a smartboard in most classes is overkill. Most schools have a computer lab or media center the kids can use and that should be sufficient. JMHO.

 

[Tundra]

Re: School Troubles

The standard test thing is not surprising at all. Lil's schools in elementary were teaching for the tests. It was ridiculous.

He is a voracious reader. The next yr he was one of only a few students that didn't struggle in either subject. I love Finlands idea of sample testing.

Yeah I've to agree 100%.

You know I just realized something looking at the tertiary (college) enrollment/attainment. USA and Finland is almost identical.

Tertiary enrollment (college, vocational school)
#1 USA 72.6%
#2 Finland 70.4% (Free college/voc education)

Tertiary attainment.
#2 USA 37%
#5 Finland 32%

we want to emulate Finland so we can score better in the PISA test?. World bragging rights? since it doesn't seem to mean anything at the university level. And yet it's the foci point of most education discussion, articles, blog. Maybe we should study #1 Canada instead. Lower enrollment but higher % of graduates.

I think Finland's over all population literacy (reading level), math and science is higher than us, although that might be more do to immigration level.

 

[leswp1]

Re: School Troubles

Might be a good idea to consider that not everyone belongs in college. Some people may be brilliant in non-academic ways yet we look at them as non-achievers simply because they didn't do the college thing. I run the church HS group. There are a few kids in there that struggle academically but are amazing artists or even intellectuals. They just can't translate that to paper for what ever reason. (Learning disability being one).

It bugs me that we have so many people graduating from college but have an education that will be useless to them. How many more of them rack up the debt trying to achieve and end up never making it thru? Why is it the college grad statistic it the benchmark rather than something that looks at gainful employment after ending schooling or at a certain age?

 

[FlagDUDE08]

Re: School Troubles

Don't get me started with standardized tests. For those who don't know, New York State has this thing called the Regents examination, which is a standardized final exam across the whole state. Talk about teachers teaching to the test! Obviously, you don't have much of a choice because that is how students are required to graduate in this state. That's one of the reasons I said when I got past 8th grade, "Forget traveling 40 miles for school every day, I'll just go to the public school in town, it'll be the same curriculum."

Les, you're absolutely correct about post-school achievement. There has to have been some time that I had looked at successes between high school valedictorians and those who didn't do all so well in traditional American high schools.

 

[bigblue_dl]

Re: School Troubles

Might be a good idea to consider that not everyone belongs in college. Some people may be brilliant in non-academic ways yet we look at them as non-achievers simply because they didn't do the college thing. I run the church HS group. There are a few kids in there that struggle academically but are amazing artists or even intellectuals. They just can't translate that to paper for what ever reason. (Learning disability being one).

It bugs me that we have so many people graduating from college but have an education that will be useless to them. How many more of them rack up the debt trying to achieve and end up never making it thru? Why is it the college grad statistic it the benchmark rather than something that looks at gainful employment after ending schooling or at a certain age?

I know it sounds bad, but the old saying goes, the world needs ditch diggers too. (and plumbers, and electricians, and welders and mechanics...) There is nothing wrong with pushing students don't show great abilities in the classroom towards the trades. You can make a fine living doing jobs working with your hands, and there will always be a need for those types of skills.

 

[CLS]

Re: School Troubles

Might be a good idea to consider that not everyone belongs in college. Some people may be brilliant in non-academic ways yet we look at them as non-achievers simply because they didn't do the college thing. I run the church HS group. There are a few kids in there that struggle academically but are amazing artists or even intellectuals. They just can't translate that to paper for what ever reason. (Learning disability being one).

It bugs me that we have so many people graduating from college but have an education that will be useless to them. How many more of them rack up the debt trying to achieve and end up never making it thru? Why is it the college grad statistic it the benchmark rather than something that looks at gainful employment after ending schooling or at a certain age?

Part of the problem with kids getting bored with school is that the educational system is designed largely to funnel everyone to college. Vocational education is seen as a dumping ground for kids who aren’t smart enough to go to college. Maybe if some of the kids in high school were being taught something that they were interested in and were good at, they wouldn’t be so bored.

One thing that drives me crazy is this oft-quoted data that says something like “college graduates make x million more dollars in their working career than non-college graduates” like it is cause and effect. I absolutely disagree. There is correlation between college graduation and lifetime earnings, but IMO is has more to do with intelligent, ambitious, hard working people make more money over their lifetimes, and intelligent, ambitious, hard working people tend to go to college. That explains the Bill Gates of the world. He didn’t become the world’s richest man in spite of the fact that he dropped out of college; he became the world’s richest man because he is intelligent, ambitious, hard working, and yes, lucky.

As a society, we won’t benefit if everyone goes to college. We will benefit if everyone reaches their potential and if our educational resources are used efficiently.

Not sure what you’re aiming at in your second paragraph. If it’s a continuation of your previous point that not everyone belongs in college, then I agree. If it’s the Q: What did the liberal arts graduate say to the engineering graduate? A: “Would you like fries with that, sir?” mentality, then I disagree. There is room for college degrees that don’t have an obvious non-academic career path. I went to an engineering school and had the "fries" mentality at one time. It pained me that my son went to a liberal arts school. But after having seen how he benefited from his “liberal” education, I feel very differently now.