Save Uah Hockey!

[aparch]

Re: Save Uah Hockey!

Third post.



Just to add, from what I was told, there were no length of terms given for the UAH reimbursement either. That caused some teams to question the deal. Was it for just one year? Two years? Five years? UAA length deal with progressively lesser values? UAf deal where they'll pay existing members as long as they stay in the conference?

If there were terms, I don't remember reading about it or hearing when I asked. So I could be wrong on this one.

 

[moose97]

Re: Save Uah Hockey!

I'm just going to throw completely baseless numbers against a wall here. To make my math easy, I figure 30 people on each trip. Figure in a group rate of $80 for hotel rooms (15 rooms), and $4.00 per gallon for diesel to bus (round trip mileage). Throw on a per-Diem of $20 per person (for a team meal each day). There are a bunch of other costs that still would need to be factored in.

LSSU 2010-11 road schedule / costs
South Bend - Weds through Friday. 800 miles. $2400 hotel, $1800 meals, $3200 fuel = $7400
Oxford - Thursday through Saturday. 1100 miles. $2400 hotel, $1800 meals, $4400 fuel = $8600
Ann Arbor - Thursday through Saturday. 700 miles. $2400 hotel, $1800 meals, $2800 fuel = $7000
Denver - I'm going to take the easy way out of this one and claim that the payout for being part of the tourney is a wash and covers the cost of travel. = $XXXX
Kalamazoo - Thursday through Saturday. 700 miles. $2400 hotel, $1800 meals, $2800 fuel = $7000
Bowling Green - Thurs through Saturday. 800 miles. $2400 hotel, $1800 meals, $3200 fuel = $7400
Marquette - Friday and Saturday. 340 miles. $1200 hotel, $1200 meals, $1360 fuel = $3760
Columbus - Thurs through Saturday. 1040 miles. $2400 hotel, $1800 meals, $4160 fuel = $8360

Rough guestimate MINIMUM travel budget for 10-11: $49,520.


LSSU 2009-10 road schedule / costs
Superior Cup - Thursday through Sunday. 900 miles. $3600 hotel, $2400 meals, $3600 fuel = $XXXX
Kalamazoo - Thursday through Saturday. 700 miles. $2400 hotel, $1800 meals, $2800 fuel = $7000
Omaha - Wednesday through Saturday. 1700 miles. $3600 hotel, $2400 meals, $6800 fuel = $12800
RPI Tourney - I'm coping out again and saying that the RPI tourney is a wash financially. = $XXXX
Bowling Green - Thurs through Saturday. 800 miles. $2400 hotel, $1800 meals, $3200 fuel = $7400
Pittsburgh - Friday through Sunday. 1240 miles. $2400 hotel, $1800 meals, $4960 fuel = $XXXX
East Lansing - Thursday through Saturday. 600 miles. $2400 hotel, $1800 meals, $2400 fuel = $6600
Oxford - Thursday through Saturday. 1100 miles. $2400 hotel, $1800 meals, $4400 fuel = $8600
Fairbanks - UAf pays for the flight. I believe the hotel is still up to the teams. But for arguments sake... = $XXXX
Marquette - Friday and Saturday. 340 miles. $1200 hotel, $1200 meals, $1360 fuel = $3760

Rough guestimate MINIMUM travel budget for the 09-10: $46,160.



And that's hoping that you can get a block of rooms for $80 a night everywhere. And that fuel remained at $4.00.

For the purpose of our discussion, however, conference travel is all that is relevant, since teams make their own decisions on where they go for OOC games (LSSU scheduling UMD or Mercyhurst is much cheaper than Denver or RMU; travel for guarantee games factors in as you note... Years with an exemption whree they have to play an extra couple OOC games) and because suddenly you see nearly $20,000 is the Superior Showcase and the trip to Pittsburgh. Why does that count against the next year and how does that affect conference travel? So take the OOC game out and the above is hardly the $6000 savings you claim. Rather, it's the $6000 savings turned into an extra $3,360. Then they threw away the $10,000 UAH was going to give them...

So, using your math, LSSU to UAH is 1866 miles. $3600 hotel, $2400 meals and $7464 fuel = $13,464 - $10,000 UAH subsidy = $3,464.

So:

Hypothetical LSSU 2011-12 road schedule / costs (with UAH in conference)

Kalamazoo - Thursday through Saturday. 700 miles. $2400 hotel, $1800 meals, $2800 fuel = $7000
UAH - Wednesday through Saturday 1866 miles. $3600 hotel, $2400 meals and $7464 fuel = $13,464 - $10,000 UAH subsidy = $3,464 *
Bowling Green - Thurs through Saturday. 800 miles. $2400 hotel, $1800 meals, $3200 fuel = $7400
East Lansing - Thursday through Saturday. 600 miles. $2400 hotel, $1800 meals, $2400 fuel = $6600
Oxford - Thursday through Saturday. 1100 miles. $2400 hotel, $1800 meals, $4400 fuel = $8600
Fairbanks - UAf pays for the flight. I believe the hotel is still up to the teams. But for arguments sake... = $XXXX *
Marquette - Friday and Saturday. 340 miles. $1200 hotel, $1200 meals, $1360 fuel = $3760

* Since UAH and UA_ would be in the same cluster, they'd go to both in the same year, no?

Rough guestimate MINIMUM travel budget for the '11-'12: $36,824.

Look at that - it went down almost exactly the $10,000 Huntsville gave them... And note $13,000 less than their estimate from last year... Who knew!

 

[moose97]

Re: Save Uah Hockey!

Third post.



Just to add, from what I was told, there were no length of terms given for the UAH reimbursement either. That caused some teams to question the deal. Was it for just one year? Two years? Five years? UAA length deal with progressively lesser values? UAf deal where they'll pay existing members as long as they stay in the conference?

If there were terms, I don't remember reading about it or hearing when I asked. So I could be wrong on this one.

Just thinking logically, I can't imagine that it was left as ambiguous as "no length of terms." If there was concerns, I could see it as being UAA like (they now provide half the tickets they did when they joined the WCHA) or a set time period (1, 2, 5, 10, etc. years). Even still, based on our poor math, it hardly is a huge change to add UAH (over Omaha), and even could have saved money. And even if it were a set time period (let's say 10 years), if LSSU, BGSU, FSU et all aren't on solid ground by that time (and still couldn't afford one trip every other year to Alabama), there are much bigger problems in the CCHA... I just maintain that, to some extent, the CCHA's denial of UAH was sour grapes over the WCHA's alleged "poaching" of UNO.

 

[aparch]

Re: Save Uah Hockey!

For the purpose of our discussion, however, conference travel is all that is relevant, since teams make their own decisions on where they go for OOC games (LSSU scheduling UMD or Mercyhurst is much cheaper than Denver or RMU; travel for guarantee games factors in as you note... Years with an exemption whree they have to play an extra couple OOC games). So take the OOC game out and the above is hardly the $6000 savings you claim. Rather, it's the $6000 savings turned into an extra $3,360. Then they threw away the $10,000 UAH was going to give them...

So, using your math, LSSU to UAH is 1866 miles. $3600 hotel, $2400 meals and $7464 fuel = $13,464 - $10,000 UAH subsidy = $3,464.

So:

Hypothetical LSSU 2011-12 road schedule / costs (with UAH in conference)

Kalamazoo - Thursday through Saturday. 700 miles. $2400 hotel, $1800 meals, $2800 fuel = $7000
UAH - Wednesday through Saturday 1866 miles. $3600 hotel, $2400 meals and $7464 fuel = $13,464 - $10,000 UAH subsidy = $3,464 *
Bowling Green - Thurs through Saturday. 800 miles. $2400 hotel, $1800 meals, $3200 fuel = $7400
East Lansing - Thursday through Saturday. 600 miles. $2400 hotel, $1800 meals, $2400 fuel = $6600
Oxford - Thursday through Saturday. 1100 miles. $2400 hotel, $1800 meals, $4400 fuel = $8600
Fairbanks - UAf pays for the flight. I believe the hotel is still up to the teams. But for arguments sake... = $XXXX *
Marquette - Friday and Saturday. 340 miles. $1200 hotel, $1200 meals, $1360 fuel = $3760

* Since UAH and UA_ would be in the same cluster, they'd go to both in the same year, no?

Rough guestimate MINIMUM travel budget for the '11-'12: $36,824.

Look at that - it went down almost exactly the $10,000 Huntsville gave them... And note $13,000 less than their estimate from last year... Who knew!

Yep, I should have made it conference only. To correct:

09-10: Seven road conference games.
Kalamazoo - $7000, Omaha - $12800, Bowling Green - $7400, East Lansing - $6600, Oxford - $8600, Fairbanks - $0,
Marquette - $3760. = $46,160

10-11: Seven road conference games.
South Bend - $7400, Oxford - $8600, Ann Arbor - $7000, Kalamazoo - $7000, Bowling Green - $7400, Marquette - $3760, Columbus - $8360. = $49,520

Proposed 11-12 w/UAH: (your numbers)
Kalamazoo - $7000, UAH - $13464*, Bowling Green - $7400, East Lansing - $6600, Oxford - $8600, Fairbanks - $0,
Marquette - $3760. = $46,824 - UAH $10,000* = $36,824

Prelim 11-12: (Just guessing)
Marquette - $3760, Fairbanks - $0, East Lansing - $6600, Big Rapids (500mi) - $6200, Bowling Green - $7400, Kalamazoo - $7000, Ann Arbor - $7000. = $37,960


Without knowing future schedules, as it stands LSSU would get the same financial benefit with or without UAH. I think the benefit could come from busting up UAH and UAF and alternating them.

So we'd be looking at:
Prelim 12-13:
South Bend - $7400, Oxford - $8600, Ann Arbor - $7000, Kalamazoo - $7000, UAH - $13464, Marquette - $3760, Columbus - $8360. = $55584 - UAH 10k = $45,584

B1G-free CCHA 13-14:
Big Rapids - $6200, Bowling Green - $7400, Kalamazoo - $7000, Marquette - $3760, Oxford - $8600, South Bend - $7400. = $40,360

B1G-free CCHA 13-14:
Big Rapids - $6200, Bowling Green - $7400, UAH - $13464*, Kalamazoo - $7000, Marquette - $3760, Oxford - $8600, South Bend - $7400. = $53,824 - UAH 10k = $43,824

I haven't even begun to look at what UAH would need to do for scheduling. At that point, if the CCHA schools say "Sure! We'll take you in!" what's to say that UAH wants to continue paying the 10k discount? If they do, do they really want to bleed dry from paying that much every year?



(Yes, I'm just adding to your post; I'm not really counter arguing anything. Just trying to put more numbers to this to see if it's really what I've heard.)

 

[moose97]

Re: Save Uah Hockey!

Yep, I should have made it conference only. To correct:

...

I haven't even begun to look at what UAH would need to do for scheduling. At that point, if the CCHA schools say "Sure! We'll take you in!" what's to say that UAH wants to continue paying the 10k discount? If they do, do they really want to bleed dry from paying that much every year?



(Yes, I'm just adding to your post; I'm not really counter arguing anything. Just trying to put more numbers to this to see if it's really what I've heard.)

Back in 2009 I'd say that UAH would have been willing to commit to that financial situation for a while (the 5-10 years). Now? I'm guessing not so much. Truthfully, I'd say that the CCHA missed the boat on the deal re: any kind of UAH subsidy. The reason being that it was based on the Chargers drawing "name" opponents (OSU, Michigan, MSU not to mention the Irish and to a lesser extent, Miami) into the VonBraun Center on a regular basis (look at their home schedules over the last 10 years and tell me why any average hockey fan would be excited outside of the "rivalry*" that is BSU. If the CCHA came back to UAH today and said, "okay, we'll take that deal, $10,000 a road trip and you're in the conference." I'd bet that UAH would say, "Um, no thanks. We can't make that work financially since we won't sell out games with NMU, LSSU, Ferris, WMU, BGSU and Alaska coming into town with no guarantee that Notre Dame and Miami are sticking around."


* I put quotes around it because long-term, it will look more like an aberration than any real rivalry. The teams didn't meet until the mid-'90's, and then only in the national title game, and then met in conference play for a only decade. It's a blip that will be forgotten by most students at BSU within 2-3 more years (heck, the OOC game in December in Bji will have Fr., So. who have no knowledge of the "rivalry" as conference games and Jr.'s and Sr.'s who remember UAH as a team that BSU has beaten 24 of the last 30 times they'd played).)

 

[ithacat]

Re: Save Uah Hockey!

So you are saying neither will grow. Lets be honest the only people playing LAX are Long Island and D.C. kids. It is nearly impossible to add any sports in this day and age.

Probably the fastest growing sport in the country right now. #1-ranked Syracuse has kids from Ohio (3), Illinois, Colorado, and Oregon on its roster -- next year's class includes a kid from Tennesee and another from Texas (who also was the state player of the year in football and turned down Texas, Oklahoma, and Notre Dame to go to SU for lax). Cornell is ranked #2 and has kids from Washington state (2), California, and Texas on its roster -- next year's class has another Californian coming in and a kid from Ohio, and one from Tennessee. Cornell's 2nd all-time leading goal scorer (3rd all-time in points) just graduated last year. He came from your part of the country, Ryan Hurley from Holy Angels. It's not just the NE and mid-Atlantic states producing lax players.

 

[gfmorris]

Re: Save Uah Hockey!

Been out of state, and I'll let Moose run those numbers down. I'm hamstrung by my desire to not appear to speak for my current employer.

True. But again, for teams in a "cost containment" league - are there teams that are willing to put in the money for the scholarships AND increased travel budget.

The schools that I would expect to move are: Niagara (spent a decade in the CHA, dealt with its travel, and fully funded 18 scholarships), Robert Morris (started the program in the CHA, fully funded the scholarships), Canisius (widely understood to be one of the two teams willing to leave Atlantic Hockey to bolster the CHA, but didn't leave when they were told their return application wouldn't be rubber-stamped if the CHA fell apart), and Mercyhurst (ditto). Air Force and Army also spent time in the CHA, although Army did so for only a couple of seasons.

I don't know that a team that's always been in Atlantic Hockey would make the jump. They might. If so, cool!

GFM

 

[Back check]

Re: Save Uah Hockey!

I disagree. The allure of variety and travel could help recruiting certain types of good players. The biggest burden/toll is on the coaching staff. They can find road games if they work hard enough. Plus, most of the road games are revenue producers for the program. However, the travel wears heavily on them and their families.

New Athletic Director E.J. Brophy: "There's no question that if UAH hockey wants to continue at the Division I level, a conference is going to have to be found."

UAH has a disproportionate number of away games. Also hard on students to miss classes.

 

[komey1]

Re: Save Uah Hockey!

The schools that I would expect to move are: Niagara (spent a decade in the CHA, dealt with its travel, and fully funded 18 scholarships), Robert Morris (started the program in the CHA, fully funded the scholarships), Canisius (widely understood to be one of the two teams willing to leave Atlantic Hockey to bolster the CHA, but didn't leave when they were told their return application wouldn't be rubber-stamped if the CHA fell apart), and Mercyhurst (ditto). Air Force and Army also spent time in the CHA, although Army did so for only a couple of seasons.

I don't know that a team that's always been in Atlantic Hockey would make the jump. They might. If so, cool!

GFM

I don't see Canisius being admitted into the CCHA without it's own rink. Air Force moved to the AHA to be competitive - I don't see them moving anytime soon. I would suspect Army will not be leaving either to be in the same conference as Air Force.

I'm sure Niagara would jump if asked. I don't know much about Robert Morris' situtation.

 

[FlagDUDE08]

Re: Save Uah Hockey!

I don't see Canisius being admitted into the CCHA without it's own rink. Air Force moved to the AHA to be competitive - I don't see them moving anytime soon. I would suspect Army will not be leaving either to be in the same conference as Air Force.

I'm sure Niagara would jump if asked. I don't know much about Robert Morris' situtation.

Robert Morris seems to be "the appeaser". Didn't they originally start in Atlantic, and then go to the CHA when it was in danger of folding because they needed a 6th team for an autobid when Air Force left? If any teams go to the CCHA, I would say Niagara and Robert Morris. Mercyhurst only if their men's team can come up to the same caliber as their women's team. And when RIT gets a full-size rink, maybe they'll hop as well. Obviously I hope one of those teams is replaced with UAH, but who knows.

 

[moose97]

Re: Save Uah Hockey!

Robert Morris seems to be "the appeaser". Didn't they originally start in Atlantic, and then go to the CHA when it was in danger of folding because they needed a 6th team for an autobid when Air Force left?

The general understanding was that they were going to go to AHA, but they were never officially accepted. The rest of your scenario is mostly correct. In fact, I called their AD the day Findlay dropped hockey (in 2004, not AFA's move in 2006) to see where they intended to play the following season, and they had already been in contact with RH Peters about going to the CHA.

By the time AFA left, that put the team down to 5 teams and then Wayne State's departure (2008) put it at 4, effectively killing the conference and setting up BSU's application to the WCHA (which they had done before), RMU and Niagara's app to AHA and UAH's to the CCHA.

 

[FlagDUDE08]

Re: Save Uah Hockey!

The general understanding was that they were going to go to AHA, but they were never officially accepted. The rest of your scenario is mostly correct. In fact, I called their AD the day Findlay dropped hockey (in 2004, not AFA's move in 2006) to see where they intended to play the following season, and they had already been in contact with RH Peters about going to the CHA.

By the time AFA left, that put the team down to 5 teams and then Wayne State's departure (2008) put it at 4, effectively killing the conference and setting up BSU's application to the WCHA (which they had done before), RMU and Niagara's app to AHA and UAH's to the CCHA.

OK. I started following college hockey a little bit after when those teams dropped and moved and wasn't too involved outside the ECAC, so thank you for clearing that up.

If some Atlantic teams were to jump ship to the CCHA, should UAH not be able to get into the CCHA, what would their chances be of getting into Atlantic?

 

[moose97]

Re: Save Uah Hockey!

If some Atlantic teams were to jump ship to the CCHA, should UAH not be able to get into the CCHA, what would their chances be of getting into Atlantic?

Unfortunately, it's a numbers game, IMHO, at the moment. Right now, there are an even number of teams (AHA with 12; CCHA - 11; ECAC - 12; HEA - 10; WCHA - 12 and UAH). Add in PSU and some one is the odd man out. Now, obviously the CCHA is currently willing to go with an uneven number of teams in their conference, but is that sustainable? I don't know. Despite what Bruce McLeod said for all those years, it isn't impossible, just more difficult to do. Optimally, even numbers of teams in a conference is preferred.

That said, if the WCHA and CCHA stand pat with the BTHC teams leaving, both conferences can return to even status (WCHA back to 10 teams and CCHA to 8 teams). Unfortunately, that leaves UAH needing chaos (as I've said before) to survive. And even with many "super 6" scenarios, UAH tends to get left out. It's almost as if UAH needs some school to fold to find a place (and truthfully, I'm not sure that even would secure a conference home for the Chargers). As I've said before - I really wish I could be more optimistic than I am, but until something changes, I just am not.

 

[Back check]

Re: Save Uah Hockey!

Unfortunately, it's a numbers game, IMHO, at the moment. Right now, there are an even number of teams (AHA with 12; CCHA - 11; ECAC - 12; HEA - 10; WCHA - 12 and UAH). Add in PSU and some one is the odd man out. Now, obviously the CCHA is currently willing to go with an uneven number of teams in their conference, but is that sustainable? I don't know. Despite what Bruce McLeod said for all those years, it isn't impossible, just more difficult to do. Optimally, even numbers of teams in a conference is preferred.

That said, if the WCHA and CCHA stand pat with the BTHC teams leaving, both conferences can return to even status (WCHA back to 10 teams and CCHA to 8 teams). Unfortunately, that leaves UAH needing chaos (as I've said before) to survive. And even with many "super 6" scenarios, UAH tends to get left out. It's almost as if UAH needs some school to fold to find a place (and truthfully, I'm not sure that even would secure a conference home for the Chargers). As I've said before - I really wish I could be more optimistic than I am, but until something changes, I just am not.

If the prognosticators are right, this does not sound good for UAH. Should UAH be unsuccessful in finding a conference, wonder at what point the administration will stop the independent schedule. I guess teams will want to know sooner than later about their conferences so they can do scheduling. When will the CCHA make decisions about their conference? What kind of timeline will there be for ACHA teams to possibly move?

 

[FlagDUDE08]

Re: Save Uah Hockey!

If the prognosticators are right, this does not sound good for UAH. Should UAH be unsuccessful in finding a conference, wonder at what point the administration will stop the independent schedule. I guess teams will want to know sooner than later about their conferences so they can do scheduling. When will the CCHA make decisions about their conference? What kind of timeline will there be for ACHA teams to possibly move?

According to the school's directors, it looks to be until 2013-14.

One other thing to consider is that isn't UAH a Division II school? If so, and they drop hockey for even one year, they won't be allowed to bring it back at the D-I level unless they move the entire school up to D-I, and that's already hell enough to do simply because of bashball and squeakball.

 

[aparch]

Re: Save Uah Hockey!

When will the CCHA make decisions about their conference? What kind of timeline will there be for ACHA teams to possibly move?

Not including any conference calls between member schools and the head office, the CCHA just recently held their meetings during the AHCA conference in Naples, FLA. Another league meeting isn't generally scheduled until the fall media presser in late September/First week of October.

One other thing to consider is that isn't UAH a Division II school? If so, and they drop hockey for even one year, they won't be allowed to bring it back at the D-I level unless they move the entire school up to D-I, ...

Yep. Stupid new NCAA rule.

 

[CHFAN222]

Re: Save Uah Hockey!

According to the school's directors, it looks to be until 2013-14.

One other thing to consider is that isn't UAH a Division II school? If so, and they drop hockey for even one year, they won't be allowed to bring it back at the D-I level unless they move the entire school up to D-I, and that's already hell enough to do simply because of bashball and squeakball.

Not true. There is no D-II hockey championship therefore any D-II school can field a D-1 Hockey program no problem. If UBC had joined the NCAA as a D-II school than the hockey team would be playing at the D-1 level.

 

[FlagDUDE08]

Re: Save Uah Hockey!

Not true. There is no D-II hockey championship therefore any D-II school can field a D-1 Hockey program no problem. If UBC had joined the NCAA as a D-II school than the hockey team would be playing at the D-1 level.

Will the same be true with the rule amendements beginning I believe in August?

 

[fangers]

Re: Save Uah Hockey!

Not true. There is no D-II hockey championship therefore any D-II school can field a D-1 Hockey program no problem. If UBC had joined the NCAA as a D-II school than the hockey team would be playing at the D-1 level.

Not anymore, the NCAA recently changed the rule(s) about playups.

 

[UAHStatman]

Re: Save Uah Hockey!

Not true. There is no D-II hockey championship therefore any D-II school can field a D-1 Hockey program no problem. If UBC had joined the NCAA as a D-II school than the hockey team would be playing at the D-1 level.

That would be good, because UAH is in no position to make the full jump to D-I anyway. And we don't even have football (if you thought an Alabama school having hockey wasn't odd enough).