Running up the Score - Not D3, Olympics!

[FranchisePlayer]

Re: Running up the Score - Not D3, Olympics!

Creasemonkey...See, I didn't call you any names. Good start...OK. Now...After perusing your last few posts, and I'm sure 5-4 would extend that quite a bit further, I have to say that you really don't have any real in depth understanding of the game of hockey. Some of the things you say pretty much reveal your education couldn't go much further than a house leaguer. Not that there is anything wrong with house league. You don't understand the game, it's pretty clear. Go to the library (seriously) and get a few books, but don't talk to anybody when you get there.

He has no depth of understanding for the game because he disagrees with you and has a different philosophy? That's what I love. At least when Pops posts his opinion on the subject, which is different from that of Creasemonkey and me, he leaves it at that. He doesn't feel the need to carry on louder and longer in an effort to prove he's right.

But let's get back to the real issue, and thank you to UNHPuckfan for the link. If goal differential is a tie-breaker (and the third one at that), then it clearly presents a dilemma for some of you: either the IIHF is disrespectful of the game for encouraging teams to run up the score (see the next tie-breaking criterion - number of goals scored FOR), or you are wrong that it is disrespectful to continue to score goals against a weaker opponent.

Sooooo......... which is it?

 

[CanHockGuy]

Re: Running up the Score - Not D3, Olympics!

He has no depth of understanding for the game because he disagrees with you and has a different philosophy? That's what I love. At least when Pops posts his opinion on the subject, which is different from that of Creasemonkey and me, he leaves it at that. He doesn't feel the need to carry on louder and longer in an effort to prove he's right.

But let's get back to the real issue, and thank you to UNHPuckfan for the link. If goal differential is a tie-breaker (and the third one at that), then it clearly presents a dilemma for some of you: either the IIHF is disrespectful of the game for encouraging teams to run up the score (see the next tie-breaking criterion - number of goals scored FOR), or you are wrong that it is disrespectful to continue to score goals against a weaker opponent.

Sooooo......... which is it?

No, not quite. This is my opinion based on things stated in previous posts. I wasn't being louder or longer (except for the little jab at the end for fun), I was being honest. If you want to agree to disagree, I'm fine with that.

Don't ask me to explain the previous posts thing. I'm tired of defending my views so many times over. It's pretty clear to me. Believe what you want to believe.

There is a moral code in hockey that covers this issue and many others. Sometimes it appears contradictory, but experienced people understand this and deal with it. We don't question it. I'm not trying to be arrogant. I didn't make it up. It has been in place for many years. It is self governed for the most part, kind of like golf. People that have played get it. People that have not don't.

 

[creasemonkey]

Re: Running up the Score - Not D3, Olympics!

There is a moral code in hockey that covers this issue and many others. Sometimes it appears contradictory, but experienced people understand this and deal with it. We don't question it. I'm not trying to be arrogant. I didn't make it up. It has been in place for many years. It is self governed for the most part, kind of like golf. People that have played get it. People that have not don't.

Guess all of those Olymipic hockey athletes are newcomers to the game, lack experience, and don't get it either!

 

[CanHockGuy]

Re: Running up the Score - Not D3, Olympics!

Guess all of those Olymipic hockey athletes are newcomers to the game, lack experience, and don't get it either!

Focus on the second sentence.

 

[creasemonkey]

Re: Running up the Score - Not D3, Olympics!

Yawn.. Your act is tiresome. Sorry that my vocabulary is too large for you to handle without running to a dictionary to double-check spelling and usage. I'll do my best to be less verbose for you in the future. Here is simple language you should be able to handle:

5 4 Whining has said that if you score too many goals that is bad. Scoring too many goals makes people feel bad. Scoring too many goals is also "disrespectful".

The Canadian women have scored too many goals in the only two games they have played. Therefore, the Canadian team is bad and disrespects the game. They should practice the iron cross defense and the neutral zone trap and put both the trainer and the equipment manager in skates to take shifts after going up by 10 goals to make sure that they don't score anymore.

Well Candadian way group, what's your response to this? The Canadian Olympians disrespecting the game of hockey? Canada's sport? Did they not get the memo? I think their citizenship should be revoked!

 

[creasemonkey]

Re: Running up the Score - Not D3, Olympics!

Focus on the second sentence.

I'm focusing... really, really hard.

 

[FranchisePlayer]

Re: Running up the Score - Not D3, Olympics!

Focus on the second sentence.

Ok, I agree to disagree with you about philosophy, but it does seem to be a bit arrogant to state that "People that have played get it. People that have not don't." There are LOTS of players and coaches with a tremendous amount of experience that disagree with your position to go along with the large number that do agree with you. In any case...

Here's an idea that I bet you'd agree with then - why not make the tie-breaking criterion FEWEST goals allowed instead of most goals scored? The next tier down could be fewest shots allowed or fewest penalty minutes. Using these criteria would seem to me to be respectful of the game and of the opponent.

I'm not being sarcastic, btw.

 

[dontyelldad]

Re: Running up the Score - Not D3, Olympics!

Very entertaining thread. I decided to do a little research, because my wife and I just had a similar discussion. I threw out that it was possible that goal differential was used as a tiebreak criteria, or for seeding. I decided to look into this. Took a while.

I have yet to find anything regarding women's play, even in the IIHF rule handbook. Here's what I did find so far, to support the theory. Anybody finds anything else, please post here; I have to actually work at work now, so I can't dig anymore . . .

http://www.nhl.com/ice/page.htm?id=60725

Look at number 6, specifically. Also, another interesting article on this subject, for your consideration:

*** [/SIZE]

Actually, there are more men's teams, and the tie breaking criteria seem to be different -- remember, there are two groups, four teams in each group ... according to the NBC website, goal differential comes into play in group competition ONLY if there is a THREE WAY TIE in the group, say CANADA, SWEDEN and SWISS, or CANADA, SWISS and SLOVAKIA, or, equally likely, SLOVAKIA, SWEDEN and SWISS:

"If two teams are tied with the same number of points and same number of games, the winner of their head-to-head game will be ranked higher.

If three teams are tied with the same number of points and same number of games, the following criteria will be used to determine their ranking within their group:

(a) greater number of points obtained in all the group matches between the teams concerned,
(b) goal difference resulting from all the group matches between the teams concerned,
(c) greater number of goals scored in all the group matches between the teams concerned,
(d) greater number of points obtained against next closest best-ranked team,
(e) goal difference in a match against next closest best-ranked team,
(f) greater number of goals scored in a match against next closest best-ranked team,
(g) higher 2009 IIHF World Ranking."

http://www.nbcolympics.com/hockey/insidethissport/competition/newsid=259050.html#womens+format

So, yeah, 41 goals is important because the tournament format dictates it.

 

[CanHockGuy]

Re: Running up the Score - Not D3, Olympics!

I'm focusing... really, really hard.

You're priceless. I never said this was right. Other people have stated the short series thing, a year plus of preparation, and the goal differential etc. Maybe they are right.
The fact remains that running up the score is bad for hockey, in many ways.

 

[dontyelldad]

Re: Running up the Score - Not D3, Olympics!

I'm focusing... really, really hard.

Do you see the sailboat yet?

 

[CanHockGuy]

Re: Running up the Score - Not D3, Olympics!

Ok, I agree to disagree with you about philosophy, but it does seem to be a bit arrogant to state that "People that have played get it. People that have not don't." There are LOTS of players and coaches with a tremendous amount of experience that disagree with your position to go along with the large number that do agree with you. In any case...

Here's an idea that I bet you'd agree with then - why not make the tie-breaking criterion FEWEST goals allowed instead of most goals scored? The next tier down could be fewest shots allowed or fewest penalty minutes. Using these criteria would seem to me to be respectful of the game and of the opponent.

I'm not being sarcastic, btw.

I've always been a firm believer in playing to break a tie. It certainly would create more excitement wouldn't it. Statistical tiebreakers are disappointing.

Again..I wasn't trying to be arrogant before. There are a lot of people in high places, places where they shouldn't be. Just my opinion.

 

[5 4 Fighting]

Re: Running up the Score - Not D3, Olympics!

Yawn.. Your act is tiresome. Sorry that my vocabulary is too large for you to handle without running to a dictionary to double-check spelling and usage. I'll do my best to be less verbose for you in the future. Here is simple language you should be able to handle:

5 4 Whining has said that if you score too many goals that is bad. Scoring too many goals makes people feel bad. Scoring too many goals is also "disrespectful".

The Canadian women have scored too many goals in the only two games they have played. Therefore, the Canadian team is bad and disrespects the game. They should practice the iron cross defense and the neutral zone trap and put both the trainer and the equipment manager in skates to take shifts after going up by 10 goals to make sure that they don't score anymore.

Ok Einstien your right I did say all that...over on the D3 thread where it was in context. I've clarified my position a number of times however you and your posse only read what you want...never seen anything like it.

You know what strikes me funny...the similarities between the few nutbars here and the few over on the Brown thread. Your never seen posting on any other threads and most of what you have to say is negative. Most other posters comment on other aspects of the game giving their opinions, expressing comments for change, cheering for their teams and generally adding insightful information and thought provoking views.

The nutbars here and on the Brown thread don't post (or read) any other threads, are fixated on one topic and have the blinders on most of the time.
If your true fans of the game then get on with helping to tear walls down instead of building them all day on one thread.

You call yourselves fans.... . I'm embarrassed for you all.

 

[Pops Ryan]

Re: Running up the Score - Not D3, Olympics!

to all who have expressed a belief that blowouts are, on occasion, unavoidable - last night's game against Sweden may be a glowing example of exactly that. it seemed like everything that was thrown in the general direction of the net wound up going in. as an opponent of lopsided scores, it was a great relief to see the Canadian women take their foot off the gas pedal. BTW, that is one very impressive team - I doubt that 'cooling their jets' last night will do anything to diminish their hunger for the Gold. Clearly, they are very deserving.

 

[IceIsNice]

Re: Running up the Score - Not D3, Olympics!

Is that the goalie in the picture? Looks like the only thing she can stop is traffic.

Just catching up on this thread, but sure glad I did!

 

[unhpuckfan2001]

Re: Running up the Score - Not D3, Olympics!

(a) greater number of points obtained in all the group matches between the teams concerned,
(b) goal difference resulting from all the group matches between the teams concerned,
(c) greater number of goals scored in all the group matches between the teams concerned,
(d) greater number of points obtained against next closest best-ranked team,
(e) goal difference in a match against next closest best-ranked team,
(f) greater number of goals scored in a match against next closest best-ranked team,
(g) higher 2009 IIHF World Ranking."

http://www.nbcolympics.com/hockey/insidethissport/competition/newsid=259050.html#womens+format

So, yeah, 41 goals is important because the tournament format dictates it.

Thanks for posting this link.

So I guess the actual point of this thread (as opposed to the "great Canadien flame war" it's become) is a little bit discovered. There MIGHT be something to be gained from scoring a ton of goals. The counter-arguement to that is that right now the teams from Canada and the US are so far ahead, it's very unlikely to come down to that extreme tiebreak.

 

[5 4 Fighting]

Re: Running up the Score - Not D3, Olympics!

Thanks for posting this link.

So I guess the actual point of this thread (as opposed to the "great Canadien flame war" it's become) is a little bit discovered. There MIGHT be something to be gained from scoring a ton of goals. The counter-arguement to that is that right now the teams from Canada and the US are so far ahead, it's very unlikely to come down to that extreme tiebreak.

Ummmm..actualy we prefer Canadian, not Canadien...just sayin

 

[unhpuckfan2001]

Re: Running up the Score - Not D3, Olympics!

Ummmm..actualy we prefer Canadian, not Canadien...just sayin

My bad eh?

 

[Hammer]

Re: Running up the Score - Not D3, Olympics!

He might have assumed that you were in Montreal.

 

[5 4 Fighting]

Re: Running up the Score - Not D3, Olympics!

He might have assumed that you were in Montreal.

Oh...if He's been reading...I highly doubt that!

 

[dontyelldad]

Re: Running up the Score - Not D3, Olympics!

Thanks for posting this link.

So I guess the actual point of this thread (as opposed to the "great Canadien flame war" it's become) is a little bit discovered. There MIGHT be something to be gained from scoring a ton of goals. The counter-arguement to that is that right now the teams from Canada and the US are so far ahead, it's very unlikely to come down to that extreme tiebreak.

You might have missed the part of my post that suggested my actual intent in posting the criteria:

"goal differential comes into play in group competition ONLY if there is a THREE WAY TIE in the group, say CANADA, SWEDEN and SWISS, or CANADA, SWISS and SLOVAKIA, or, equally likely, SLOVAKIA, SWEDEN and SWISS" ...