RPI Hockey 2018 - 2019: 28 Guys Skate onto a Rink ...

[FlagDUDE08]

Re: RPI Hockey 2018 - 2019: 28 Guys Skate onto a Rink ...

I don't know that it is reasonable to make blanket assumptions on matters like this. There are plenty of times when the secondary assist was the key play leading to the goal. A nice pass for a shot and a rebound put back by a 3rd player for instance. A breakout from the D end to launch a 2 on 1. A faceoff win back to the point followed by a shot and rebound. And there are plenty of primary assists that are nothing special. While the primary assist is often more important it isn't 2X the value of a secondary.

What about adding to this, which is something that has happened a few times and a welcome change compared to recent past IMO, the D man keeping the puck in the zone on a close line play? Obviously there's only so much that you can really put on the sheet and assists are whomever last touched the puck, hence why the +/- is a thing. Whether they get a point or not, that's still very important to look at when scouting players.

 

[Ralph Baer]

Re: RPI Hockey 2018 - 2019: 28 Guys Skate onto a Rink ...

What about adding to this, which is something that has happened a few times and a welcome change compared to recent past IMO, the D man keeping the puck in the zone on a close line play? Obviously there's only so much that you can really put on the sheet and assists are whomever last touched the puck, hence why the +/- is a thing. Whether they get a point or not, that's still very important to look at when scouting players.

I would think that over the course of a season meaningless assists will tend to even out.

 

[Noresmen]

Re: RPI Hockey 2018 - 2019: 28 Guys Skate onto a Rink ...

I don't know that it is reasonable to make blanket assumptions on matters like this. There are plenty of times when the secondary assist was the key play leading to the goal. A nice pass for a shot and a rebound put back by a 3rd player for instance. A breakout from the D end to launch a 2 on 1. A faceoff win back to the point followed by a shot and rebound. And there are plenty of primary assists that are nothing special. While the primary assist is often more important it isn't 2X the value of a secondary.

The previous poster stated and I'm paraphrasing that Hayhurst was carrying the team because he was involved in more than 50% of the teams offense. More goes into the offense than the points or +/-. Same can be said with the defensive aspects of the game. I'm not suggesting that Hayhurst is a reason for poor defensive play but one could say that since he has a +/- that's a negative and he's involved in so much of the teams offense that he's a cause of concern for his defensive play. With out the offensive scoring he potential could or would have the worst +/- on the team. Long winded but my point being he's not carrying the team on his shoulders, no one player is at this juncture of the season. Is he an integral part, absolutely. According to team stats, when he gets a point the teams record is 7-6. Polino when he gets a point the teams record is 5-3 and when Ott records a point the teams record is 2-0. One can make/ interpret stats in any way that they want to satisfy the direction that they may or may not want to lead a discussion

 

[FlagDUDE08]

Re: RPI Hockey 2018 - 2019: 28 Guys Skate onto a Rink ...

The previous poster stated and I'm paraphrasing that Hayhurst was carrying the team because he was involved in more than 50% of the teams offense. More goes into the offense than the points or +/-. Same can be said with the defensive aspects of the game. I'm not suggesting that Hayhurst is a reason for poor defensive play but one could say that since he has a +/- that's a negative and he's involved in so much of the teams offense that he's a cause of concern for his defensive play. With out the offensive scoring he potential could or would have the worst +/- on the team. Long winded but my point being he's not carrying the team on his shoulders, no one player is at this juncture of the season. Is he an integral part, absolutely. According to team stats, when he gets a point the teams record is 7-6. Polino when he gets a point the teams record is 5-3 and when Ott records a point the teams record is 2-0. One can make/ interpret stats in any way that they want to satisfy the direction that they may or may not want to lead a discussion

When I look at the first half of the season, in the question of if Hayhurst was carrying the team, I refer you to Coach Smith's postgame presser after the first Union game.

Looks like Polino's finally getting the message of "It's time to step up" after a year and a half. He certainly had a sophomore slump if I've seen one (albeit not quite as bad as Reilly, but at least it didn't take WR another half year to step up). Sure, the scoring is a lot more spread out now that Gornall and Zieky are getting their licks, and Wiffen's getting back in the thick of it, so it makes it a little easier on the others that we aren't completely depending on them, but it's a good lesson for the frosh and those sophomores currently in a slump: Step up and contribute. You don't have to be a hero, but you can certainly strengthen the team as a whole.

In speaking of Ott, what the heck happened there? Injury? Sophomore slump?

 

[jmhusker]

Re: RPI Hockey 2018 - 2019: 28 Guys Skate onto a Rink ...

The previous poster stated and I'm paraphrasing that Hayhurst was carrying the team because he was involved in more than 50% of the teams offense. More goes into the offense than the points or +/-. Same can be said with the defensive aspects of the game. I'm not suggesting that Hayhurst is a reason for poor defensive play but one could say that since he has a +/- that's a negative and he's involved in so much of the teams offense that he's a cause of concern for his defensive play. With out the offensive scoring he potential could or would have the worst +/- on the team. Long winded but my point being he's not carrying the team on his shoulders, no one player is at this juncture of the season. Is he an integral part, absolutely. According to team stats, when he gets a point the teams record is 7-6. Polino when he gets a point the teams record is 5-3 and when Ott records a point the teams record is 2-0. One can make/ interpret stats in any way that they want to satisfy the direction that they may or may not want to lead a discussion

Hmmm... If I look at the team stats fpr +/- I get a grand total of -110 for the team. Given there are usually 18 (or is it 19 now?) for each game, the average player on the team would be about -6. Since Hayhurst is only -1, he is already doing much better than average. On top of that, I would assume he is on the ice almost every time they go for the extra attacker at the end of the game and as a result takes a hit for empty net goals against. My conclusion is that he is actually doing pretty well. If the average player on the team were doing equally well then the team would have a goal differential that is 18 higher which certainly would translate into a few more wins.

But... it's +/- ... a pretty noisy stat to try to draw conclusions from unless the number is extremely high (Bobby Orr) or extremely low (Ovechkin in his lazier years). For Hayhurst I'd say it says little other than he is performing above average for his team.

 

[Noresmen]

Hmmm... If I look at the team stats fpr +/- I get a grand total of -110 for the team. Given there are usually 18 (or is it 19 now?) for each game, the average player on the team would be about -6. Since Hayhurst is only -1, he is already doing much better than average. On top of that, I would assume he is on the ice almost every time they go for the extra attacker at the end of the game and as a result takes a hit for empty net goals against. My conclusion is that he is actually doing pretty well. If the average player on the team were doing equally well then the team would have a goal differential that is 18 higher which certainly would translate into a few more wins.

But... it's +/- ... a pretty noisy stat to try to draw conclusions from unless the number is extremely high (Bobby Orr) or extremely low (Ovechkin in his lazier years). For Hayhurst I'd say it says little other than he is performing above average for his team.

You missed my point .... so no reason to elaborate. Suffice it to say Hayhurst is an important member of the team.

 

[Noresmen]

When I look at the first half of the season, in the question of if Hayhurst was carrying the team, I refer you to Coach Smith's postgame presser after the first Union game.

Looks like Polino's finally getting the message of "It's time to step up" after a year and a half. He certainly had a sophomore slump if I've seen one (albeit not quite as bad as Reilly, but at least it didn't take WR another half year to step up). Sure, the scoring is a lot more spread out now that Gornall and Zieky are getting their licks, and Wiffen's getting back in the thick of it, so it makes it a little easier on the others that we aren't completely depending on them, but it's a good lesson for the frosh and those sophomores currently in a slump: Step up and contribute. You don't have to be a hero, but you can certainly strengthen the team as a whole.

In speaking of Ott, what the heck happened there? Injury? Sophomore slump?

I’m not sure having the same number of points in your sophomore year as your freshmen year is considered a slump. A sophomore slump is what Jerry is going through. Do you expect year over year improvement yes. Last years sophomores had to adjust to a new coach and different approach as did last years juniors. Would their production been greater if there wasn’t a coaching change, we will never know. Wiffen is now on a role which he is better suited for, he was never a center. Appert and Smith has him in that role. Now Smith has him in a role that is better for him and the team.

 

[Ralph Baer]

Re: RPI Hockey 2018 - 2019: 28 Guys Skate onto a Rink ...

When I look at the first half of the season, in the question of if Hayhurst was carrying the team, I refer you to Coach Smith's postgame presser after the first Union game.

Looks like Polino's finally getting the message of "It's time to step up" after a year and a half. He certainly had a sophomore slump if I've seen one (albeit not quite as bad as Reilly, but at least it didn't take WR another half year to step up). Sure, the scoring is a lot more spread out now that Gornall and Zieky are getting their licks, and Wiffen's getting back in the thick of it, so it makes it a little easier on the others that we aren't completely depending on them, but it's a good lesson for the frosh and those sophomores currently in a slump: Step up and contribute. You don't have to be a hero, but you can certainly strengthen the team as a whole.

In speaking of Ott, what the heck happened there? Injury? Sophomore slump?

Jerry has apparently had the bigger sophomore slump.

 

[FlagDUDE08]

Re: RPI Hockey 2018 - 2019: 28 Guys Skate onto a Rink ...

Jerry has apparently had the bigger sophomore slump.

Very much the truth. Marshall's on a bit of one as well. The key is figuring out what causes that, and what do you do to stop it?

 

[Ralph Baer]

Re: RPI Hockey 2018 - 2019: 28 Guys Skate onto a Rink ...

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Great work on the offensive blue line with Coach <a href="https://twitter.com/Lysyj11?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">@Lysyj11</a> Player development is an everyday thing <a href="https://twitter.com/RPI_Hockey?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">@RPI_Hockey</a> <a href="https://t.co/amVeJy95ta">pic.twitter.com/amVeJy95ta</a></p>— Coach Dave Smith (@RPI_HockeyCoach) <a href="https://twitter.com/RPI_HockeyCoach/status/1087730966808928257?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">January 22, 2019</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

 

[jmhusker]

Re: RPI Hockey 2018 - 2019: 28 Guys Skate onto a Rink ...

Very much the truth. Marshall's on a bit of one as well. The key is figuring out what causes that, and what do you do to stop it?

Transfer?

 

[jmhusker]

Re: RPI Hockey 2018 - 2019: 28 Guys Skate onto a Rink ...

You missed my point .... so no reason to elaborate. Suffice it to say Hayhurst is an important member of the team.

I don't think I missed it... just focusing on the difficulty trying to use the stats you chose to make your argument as a convincing story for why he isn't carrying the team. Taylor Hall won the Hart last season for NJ and one reason for it was the high % of his teams goals he was involved in. This is the argument the original poster was making it seems. Hall was +14 for the year. Decent number... not earth shattering. He is -6 this season and NJ is struggling. Is it the player or the team?

All of that aside, being involved in a high % of your teams goals doesn't matter so much when your team has trouble scoring much at all. Hockey is such a team sport... you won't win MVP unless you have decent teammates or the undying love of the Canadian press (see McJesus, Connor).

 

[engineerhockeyfan]

Re: RPI Hockey 2018 - 2019: 28 Guys Skate onto a Rink ...

I don't think I missed it... just focusing on the difficulty trying to use the stats you chose to make your argument as a convincing story for why he isn't carrying the team. Taylor Hall won the Hart last season for NJ and one reason for it was the high % of his teams goals he was involved in. This is the argument the original poster was making it seems. Hall was +14 for the year. Decent number... not earth shattering. He is -6 this season and NJ is struggling. Is it the player or the team?

All of that aside, being involved in a high % of your teams goals doesn't matter so much when your team has trouble scoring much at all. Hockey is such a team sport... you won't win MVP unless you have decent teammates or the undying love of the Canadian press (see McJesus, Connor).

I'm not sure I understand this debate.
Hayhurst has been singled out more than once by coach Smith as the player who is playing with intensity and playing the right way in his system.
I don't know if that means he is carrying the team, but it does mean that Smith would like the rest of the team to play the way he does.
He is the best player on this team right now, but I am not sure that that translates to carrying a team. JMO

 

[jmhusker]

Re: RPI Hockey 2018 - 2019: 28 Guys Skate onto a Rink ...

I'm not sure I understand this debate.
Hayhurst has been singled out more than once by coach Smith as the player who is playing with intensity and playing the right way in his system.
I don't know if that means he is carrying the team, but it does mean that Smith would like the rest of the team to play the way he does.
He is the best player on this team right now, but I am not sure that that translates to carrying a team. JMO

Hockey STATS are indicators but not proof. That's all I'm saying.

Love Hayhurst's game. Back in the 90's and early 00's there was always one player who drove possession for RPI. Juneau, Richardson, Healey, Murley, Cavosie. These guys were puck carriers and play makers. Hayhurst reminds me a little bit of those guys with his style of play and ability to control the puck. Clearly he is not as good as Juneau and may not be as good as some of the others. But he does give you then sense that when the puck is on his stick there is a possibility of something good happening. Other than the Pirri/D'Amigo year it's been a while since we had this type of a threat. We need to find the kid that will assume his role after next season.

 

[Ralph Baer]

Re: RPI Hockey 2018 - 2019: 28 Guys Skate onto a Rink ...

Hockey STATS are indicators but not proof. That's all I'm saying.

Love Hayhurst's game. Back in the 90's and early 00's there was always one player who drove possession for RPI. Juneau, Richardson, Healey, Murley, Cavosie. These guys were puck carriers and play makers. Hayhurst reminds me a little bit of those guys with his style of play and ability to control the puck. Clearly he is not as good as Juneau and may not be as good as some of the others. But he does give you then sense that when the puck is on his stick there is a possibility of something good happening. Other than the Pirri/D'Amigo year it's been a while since we had this type of a threat. We need to find the kid that will assume his role after next season.

"The Wolfman" Gunnarwolfe Fontaine, assuming we don't lose him, which has become a problem these days. John Beaton is also a possibility, but he seems to be more of a power forward.

 

[jmhusker]

Re: RPI Hockey 2018 - 2019: 28 Guys Skate onto a Rink ...

"The Wolfman" Gunnarwolfe Fontaine, assuming we don't lose him, which has become a problem these days. John Beaton is also a possibility, but he seems to be more of a power forward.

That sounds like a good combo Ralph. And based on some of the skill videos that the coach is posting, I can see more kids being convinced that heading to RPI is a good option. Hopefully they both show up and stay a couple of years.

 

[Ralph Baer]

Re: RPI Hockey 2018 - 2019: 28 Guys Skate onto a Rink ...

That sounds like a good combo Ralph. And based on some of the skill videos that the coach is posting, I can see more kids being convinced that heading to RPI is a good option. Hopefully they both show up and stay a couple of years.

I would be concerned with Beaton leaving early. I think that Fontaine is too small to get any high-level pro interest. But I could be wrong.

I think that the class projected to enter in 2020 is quite good, on paper the best in a while.

 

[jmhusker]

Re: RPI Hockey 2018 - 2019: 28 Guys Skate onto a Rink ...

I would be concerned with Beaton leaving early. I think that Fontaine is too small to get any high-level pro interest. But I could be wrong.

I think that the class projected to enter in 2020 is quite good, on paper the best in a while.

Small and fast is in these days Ralph! You are the trend. I'm not very tall myself but I could definitely play in today's NHL is I were 30 years younger and a lot better at hockey.

 

[Ralph Baer]

Re: RPI Hockey 2018 - 2019: 28 Guys Skate onto a Rink ...

Small and fast is in these days Ralph! You are the trend. I'm not very tall myself but I could definitely play in today's NHL is I were 30 years younger and a lot better at hockey.

I am short and slow, and I can't skate.
You could be correct about GF, of course, but size still helps.

 

[Ralph Baer]

Re: RPI Hockey 2018 - 2019: 28 Guys Skate onto a Rink ...

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Our very own Todd Burgess snipes his way to <a href="https://t.co/lMCVrEfXrD">https://t.co/lMCVrEfXrD</a></p>— RPI Men's Hockey (@RPI_Hockey) <a href="https://twitter.com/RPI_Hockey/status/1088181971535257601?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">January 23, 2019</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>