RPI Hockey 2017 - 2018: A Wealth of Notions

[Ralph Baer]

Re: RPI Hockey 2017 - 2018: A Wealth of Notions

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Both <a href="https://twitter.com/RPI_Hockey?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">@RPI_Hockey</a> and <a href="https://twitter.com/RPI_WHockey?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">@RPI_WHockey</a> are both away this weekend (TU CENTER ON SATURDAY!) were still working to give them perfect practice ice <a href="https://t.co/W11cfZy3jg">pic.twitter.com/W11cfZy3jg</a></p>— RPI Zamboni Crew (@RPIZamboniCrew) <a href="https://twitter.com/RPIZamboniCrew/status/956219480841117698?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">January 24, 2018</a></blockquote>
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[cmmarkham]

Re: RPI Hockey 2017 - 2018: A Wealth of Notions

Our favorite poster's take on the roster situation: http://rpihockey.net/blog/?p=648

Thanks, FD. Please feel free to quote or link to anything you see from me anywhere. I'm always planning to post here more but I feel like I have obligations elsewhere first.

That blog post about all the roster changes was pretty bland, I know, but I don't feel free to be too outspoken. There are lots of rumors floating around about dissatisfaction behind the scenes, but I'd be more surprised if that wasn't the case with a team that's in 11th place. Rumors are just rumors.

I'm kind of surprised, actually, that our little poll asking fans' opinions on so many roster changes is so far pretty evenly divided between those who think it's really good and those who think it's really bad. We RPI fans are passionate - just not about the same things!

 

[FlagDUDE08]

Re: RPI Hockey 2017 - 2018: A Wealth of Notions

Thanks, FD. Please feel free to quote or link to anything you see from me anywhere. I'm always planning to post here more but I feel like I have obligations elsewhere first.

That blog post about all the roster changes was pretty bland, I know, but I don't feel free to be too outspoken. There are lots of rumors floating around about dissatisfaction behind the scenes, but I'd be more surprised if that wasn't the case with a team that's in 11th place. Rumors are just rumors.

I'm kind of surprised, actually, that our little poll asking fans' opinions on so many roster changes is so far pretty evenly divided between those who think it's really good and those who think it's really bad. We RPI fans are passionate - just not about the same things!

Given the Bills went through quite a roster overhaul under the new coach, and look where that got them, that says a lot about my feelings on the roster changes. When things just aren't working, especially with the culture of the team, you have to make a change.

 

[Wicked Slappaahs]

Re: RPI Hockey 2017 - 2018: A Wealth of Notions

Last year's team had 6 conference wins. SIX. Any returning player who hadn't connected the dots after SA was canned , and still hadn't gotten Smith's VERY clear message that the outhouse WOULD be getting kicked over deserves whatever consequences are dished out.

Playing D1 sports is a privilege not a right. At this level, results matter for all involved --including the players.

I was a vocal critic of York's departure -didn't like it, but it is what it is. I have no idea whether Smith's methods will be successful, but he **** sure deserves the time to get a full roster of his kids in here to run his show, so we can all find out.

That's a four + year window - not a dish served to the impatient.

 

[FlagDUDE08]

Re: RPI Hockey 2017 - 2018: A Wealth of Notions

Last year's team had 6 conference wins. SIX. Any returning player who hadn't connected the dots after SA was canned , and still hadn't gotten Smith's VERY clear message that the outhouse WOULD be getting kicked over deserves whatever consequences are dished out.

Playing D1 sports is a privilege not a right. At this level, results matter for all involved --including the players.

I was a vocal critic of York's departure -didn't like it, but it is what it is. I have no idea whether Smith's methods will be successful, but he **** sure deserves the time to get a full roster of his kids in here to run his show, so we can all find out.

That's a four + year window - not a dish served to the impatient.

Bingo. His contract is five years. And I believe we've really only seen one or two actual coaching mistakes in the four months of play, which is going to happen in a new league with different scenarios he probably didn't have at Canisius. The rest looked like the same choking we've seen in the past few years. You can only coach playing under control so much, and our kids have to figure out a way to concentrate and stay loose, because this tensing is just making us leave a lot of points on the table, and I dare say even vs. the #1 team in the nation.

 

[Noresmen]

Re: RPI Hockey 2017 - 2018: A Wealth of Notions

Flagdude and Wicked Slappahs I think you’d better take a look at this team and this coach again. York was not a major loss to this team. He produced a few points. He was the worst PK player on the team. Over 75% of the opponents PP were scored while he was on the ice. Those are real numbers.

Coaching mistakes ... there have been a lot. No bigger than the demise of the power play. At the end of last year under Nolan Grahams direction the PP was ranked 9th in the country and 1st in the ECAC. This year we are 54th in the nation and 10th in the conference. What’s changed? We only lost Bourbanis so it’s not the personel. Well Graham doesn’t run the PP and the scheme we run (1-3-1) doesn’t work.

How about constant line juggling. Every 2-3 games most of not all of the lines are different. How can you have scoring when players can’t build chemistry. This team is 57th in the country in goals per game at 2.15. Can’t win many game when you barely score 2 per game.

Why do we give up home ice advantage and let the other coach dictate the line matchups?

Where is the puck possession offense? Where is the passing game?

You can talk all you want about Smith brining inhis players but a good coach coaches the players he has. Look at Jim Montgomery at Denver. He didn’t make wholesale changes. He adapted to the players he had and produced a winning team. Listen to what he had to say about coaching styles and finding what the players are all about and making a system that works for them and not making the players fit into a system that isn’t there style.

Teams can have multiple identities based on personnel. That’s coaching.

Do our players need to be better? Yes they do but it’s the coaching staffs responsibility to put the players he has into a position to succeed.

 

[lugnut92]

Re: RPI Hockey 2017 - 2018: A Wealth of Notions

York was not a major loss to this team. He produced a few points. He was the worst PK player on the team. Over 75% of the opponents PP were scored while he was on the ice.

I'm not trying to ignore everything else you say here, but how does this stack up in comparison with the rest of our forwards? What percentage of our PK time was he playing?

 

[FlagDUDE08]

Re: RPI Hockey 2017 - 2018: A Wealth of Notions

Flagdude and Wicked Slappahs I think you’d better take a look at this team and this coach again. York was not a major loss to this team. He produced a few points. He was the worst PK player on the team. Over 75% of the opponents PP were scored while he was on the ice. Those are real numbers.

Coaching mistakes ... there have been a lot. No bigger than the demise of the power play. At the end of last year under Nolan Grahams direction the PP was ranked 9th in the country and 1st in the ECAC. This year we are 54th in the nation and 10th in the conference. What’s changed? We only lost Bourbanis so it’s not the personel. Well Graham doesn’t run the PP and the scheme we run (1-3-1) doesn’t work.

How about constant line juggling. Every 2-3 games most of not all of the lines are different. How can you have scoring when players can’t build chemistry. This team is 57th in the country in goals per game at 2.15. Can’t win many game when you barely score 2 per game.

Why do we give up home ice advantage and let the other coach dictate the line matchups?

Where is the puck possession offense? Where is the passing game?

You can talk all you want about Smith brining inhis players but a good coach coaches the players he has. Look at Jim Montgomery at Denver. He didn’t make wholesale changes. He adapted to the players he had and produced a winning team. Listen to what he had to say about coaching styles and finding what the players are all about and making a system that works for them and not making the players fit into a system that isn’t there style.

Teams can have multiple identities based on personnel. That’s coaching.

Do our players need to be better? Yes they do but it’s the coaching staffs responsibility to put the players he has into a position to succeed.

Monty has proved himself to be a great coach. Especially considering what he did with Dubuque, and then turns around and does the same thing with Denver. He's practically in a class of his own, and it's really tough to beat him in coaching comparisons, so I'll just leave it at that.

Regarding the power play, you're using a benchmark of last year at 1 for 5. We started out in the beginning of the season around 1 for 6. Now we're under 1 for 7, which is still respectable. especially if you remember the atrocities of 07-08 and 08-09. There's a certain player I've pointed out a number of times that is a contributing factor, but I will ask you this: What better do we have with the cards in our hand? Either way, I'd be more concerned with the atrocious PK, which is nearing 3 for 4.

With the line juggling, you could make the argument that it doesn't seem like they get things started, but remember that we're only seeing games. I'm sure they try these combinations in practice all the time. Either it's going to click right away, it's not going to click at all, or you might see potential and let it develop. With the juggles, either #2, or a lack of development from #3, is happening. And it's going to be tough to get chemistry in college anyway, because a quarter of the lineup is different every year, and you only have 34 games to get it right. However, like the previous paragraph, there are plenty of other reasons why we don't have many goals per game, and SOG can tell you a bit about where I'm going with that.

Regarding the possession and passing, we've had problems with that for years, and that's part of what seems to be an "all star" culture. We've been saying it for years under Appert, and Smith's finally actually calling it out: We gotta play for the name on the front, not the name on the back. There's only so much team cohesion you can do as a coach, and the players have to be able to execute as a cohesive team.

Finally, we're just going to have to agree to disagree on York. I saw him do a lot of the little things we've been looking for on the offensive end, which is so desperately needed. You want to focus the areas of his game that needed improvement on the other end. Maybe there was disagreement regarding being a two-way player, which is what you have to do at this level. Either way, he's not wearing the RPI uniform, so there's not much of a reason to contemplate what might have been.

 

[cmmarkham]

Re: RPI Hockey 2017 - 2018: A Wealth of Notions

I guess my take on rapid roster turnover is biased a bit toward the player and player-parent perspective. Believe me, I understand the fan perspective too - as I've said before, longtime RPI fans know what RPI hockey is supposed to be and this ain't it. I am mightily tired of losing, and especially of making long and expensive road trips to see frustrating losses.

But while WS is right that playing D1 hockey is a privilege, committing to a college hockey program is also a big life-decision for these boys and their families, one that affects more than just their hockey careers, and one that can be very hard to undo. With all due respect to FlagDude, NCAA sports are different from pro sports in major ways, not the least of which is how much it affects an athlete's life to be cut from, or choose to leave, a college team.

You can say, well, they should get their act together and do what they need to do, then. You can say they deserve the consequences if they don't perform. If you guys have knowledge that there are players who need an attitude adjustment, who don't feel the need to put in the effort or heed advice, and who deserve the consequences, I won't argue with you. I certainly don't know everything and you guys certainly seem to have inside info at times. I'll just say that I'm not confident that it's always that simple. Especially when the team is still losing and you're the guy on the sidelines.

And here's my big concern. I have heard from hockey parents over and over again that "hockey is a small world." Parents talk to other parents, players talk to other players and their friends. If there's a perception that players are treated unfairly in a given program, if parents feel they can't count on their son being able to play out his career at a given school, it unquestionably will affect players' willingness to commit. Reed Kipp came to RPI because Kirk McDonald's parents recommended it. Seth Klerer chose RPI because he heard good things from Oren Eizenman's family. I'm sure the opposite is true too.

I know of two different players whose parents were so unhappy with their experience at RPI under Seth Appert that they told me, "No one will ever hear anything but negative things about RPI hockey from us and, believe me, parents listen to that kind of thing."

I'm not saying no player should be cut or reduced to a bit player, but when the numbers get too high and include the current coach's own recruits, I worry about how that's perceived by prospective recruits.

Just my thoughts (and now you see why I can't post here more often - it's a major undertaking for me!).

 

[cmmarkham]

Re: RPI Hockey 2017 - 2018: A Wealth of Notions

...We've been saying it for years under Appert, and Smith's finally actually calling it out: We gotta play for the name on the front, not the name on the back. There's only so much team cohesion you can do as a coach, and the players have to be able to execute as a cohesive team..

Can I ask in what way you mean Smith is finally calling it out? If you mean in words, especially to the press, well, Appert was great with words and I think he used some of those same ones. If you mean with actions - what actions? Do you think they're a more cohesive team under Smith? I mean this as an honest question, not trying to call you out. (I miss a lot. )

 

[Wicked Slappaahs]

Flagdude and Wicked Slappahs I think you’d better take a look at this team and this coach again. York was not a major loss to this team. He produced a few points. He was the worst PK player on the team. Over 75% of the opponents PP were scored while he was on the ice. Those are real numbers.

Coaching mistakes ... there have been a lot. No bigger than the demise of the power play. At the end of last year under Nolan Grahams direction the PP was ranked 9th in the country and 1st in the ECAC. This year we are 54th in the nation and 10th in the conference. What’s changed? We only lost Bourbanis so it’s not the personel. Well Graham doesn’t run the PP and the scheme we run (1-3-1) doesn’t work.

How about constant line juggling. Every 2-3 games most of not all of the lines are different. How can you have scoring when players can’t build chemistry. This team is 57th in the country in goals per game at 2.15. Can’t win many game when you barely score 2 per game.

Why do we give up home ice advantage and let the other coach dictate the line matchups?

Where is the puck possession offense? Where is the passing game?

You can talk all you want about Smith brining inhis players but a good coach coaches the players he has. Look at Jim Montgomery at Denver. He didn’t make wholesale changes. He adapted to the players he had and produced a winning team. Listen to what he had to say about coaching styles and finding what the players are all about and making a system that works for them and not making the players fit into a system that isn’t there style.

Teams can have multiple identities based on personnel. That’s coaching.

Do our players need to be better? Yes they do but it’s the coaching staffs responsibility to put the players he has into a position to succeed.

When a team consistently, chronically , annually struggles to score goals you can bet your *** there's gonna be line changes --LOTS OF THEM. That's true at any level. To do nothing would be malpractice.

Which brings me back to your mention of Coach Graham - now with his second HC as the forwards coach ...is he not the co-owner of the "no scoring" crown ?? Or is it all the head coach's fault??

My central point remains -- until Smith fully implements his program with his players, anything resembling performance conclusions are wasted breathe.

 

[Noresmen]

Re: RPI Hockey 2017 - 2018: A Wealth of Notions

When a team consistently, chronically , annually struggles to score goals you can bet your *** there's gonna be line changes --LOTS OF THEM. That's true at any level. To do nothing would be malpractice.

Which brings me back to your mention of Coach Graham - now with his second HC as the forwards coach ...is he not the co-owner of the "no scoring" crown ?? Or is it all the head coach's fault??

My central point remains -- until Smith fully implements his program with his players, anything resembling performance conclusions are wasted breathe.

Graham has no input on this team what so ever. Smith runs the forwards and the power play. Jewel runs the defense, and when Jewel is out on the road Graham runs the defense during games. The players don't get a chance to play together long enough to see if they can score goals. And as far as practice goes, they don't practice line work so they don't have an opportunity to gain confidence in their line play in practice soooo they need time in games. This was no different under SA.

 

[FlagDUDE08]

Re: RPI Hockey 2017 - 2018: A Wealth of Notions

Can I ask in what way you mean Smith is finally calling it out? If you mean in words, especially to the press, well, Appert was great with words and I think he used some of those same ones. If you mean with actions - what actions? Do you think they're a more cohesive team under Smith? I mean this as an honest question, not trying to call you out. (I miss a lot. )

It's perfectly fine. My use of "call it out" certainly was in reference to words. Sure, we've heard words for a long time, but I don't recall Appert ever calling out team play. With him, it was always "process", "the Engineer way", and certain individual efforts. It didn't feel like a team at all. Work as a team, emerge as an individual. Once you start forcing your own mark and try to stand out, you just look selfish, and don't benefit the team. This is why I believe we need a culture change within the team, and if it takes bringing in a whole new crew, that's what it takes.

 

[FlagDUDE08]

Re: RPI Hockey 2017 - 2018: A Wealth of Notions

Graham has no input on this team what so ever. Smith runs the forwards and the power play. Jewel runs the defense, and when Jewel is out on the road Graham runs the defense during games. The players don't get a chance to play together long enough to see if they can score goals. And as far as practice goes, they don't practice line work so they don't have an opportunity to gain confidence in their line play in practice soooo they need time in games. This was no different under SA.

Unless you're there at closed practices, or have a direct line with specific players (which I highly doubt they'd give up that sort of info), all your talk about what goes on in practice is just empty words.

 

[Noresmen]

Unless you're there at closed practices, or have a direct line with specific players (which I highly doubt they'd give up that sort of info), all your talk about what goes on in practice is just empty words.

It’s not empty words .... and my source is as good as it can be

 

[Noresmen]

It's perfectly fine. My use of "call it out" certainly was in reference to words. Sure, we've heard words for a long time, but I don't recall Appert ever calling out team play. With him, it was always "process", "the Engineer way", and certain individual efforts. It didn't feel like a team at all. Work as a team, emerge as an individual. Once you start forcing your own mark and try to stand out, you just look selfish, and don't benefit the team. This is why I believe we need a culture change within the team, and if it takes bringing in a whole new crew, that's what it takes.

As for bringing in a whole new crew it’s not as easy as you think. The NCAA has rules to protest the players against Just being swept out the door. The 20-21 season is when this program will have a team of Just Smith recruits

 

[Ralph Baer]

Re: RPI Hockey 2017 - 2018: A Wealth of Notions

As for bringing in a whole new crew it’s not as easy as you think. The NCAA has rules to protest the players against Just being swept out the door. The 20-21 season is when this program will have a team of Just Smith recruits

The freshmen which include SA recruits may still be here. Also we have some recruits scheduled for the next couple of years who are still SA recruits.

 

[FlagDUDE08]

Re: RPI Hockey 2017 - 2018: A Wealth of Notions

I guess my take on rapid roster turnover is biased a bit toward the player and player-parent perspective. Believe me, I understand the fan perspective too - as I've said before, longtime RPI fans know what RPI hockey is supposed to be and this ain't it. I am mightily tired of losing, and especially of making long and expensive road trips to see frustrating losses.

But while WS is right that playing D1 hockey is a privilege, committing to a college hockey program is also a big life-decision for these boys and their families, one that affects more than just their hockey careers, and one that can be very hard to undo. With all due respect to FlagDude, NCAA sports are different from pro sports in major ways, not the least of which is how much it affects an athlete's life to be cut from, or choose to leave, a college team.

You can say, well, they should get their act together and do what they need to do, then. You can say they deserve the consequences if they don't perform. If you guys have knowledge that there are players who need an attitude adjustment, who don't feel the need to put in the effort or heed advice, and who deserve the consequences, I won't argue with you. I certainly don't know everything and you guys certainly seem to have inside info at times. I'll just say that I'm not confident that it's always that simple. Especially when the team is still losing and you're the guy on the sidelines.

And here's my big concern. I have heard from hockey parents over and over again that "hockey is a small world." Parents talk to other parents, players talk to other players and their friends. If there's a perception that players are treated unfairly in a given program, if parents feel they can't count on their son being able to play out his career at a given school, it unquestionably will affect players' willingness to commit. Reed Kipp came to RPI because Kirk McDonald's parents recommended it. Seth Klerer chose RPI because he heard good things from Oren Eizenman's family. I'm sure the opposite is true too.

I know of two different players whose parents were so unhappy with their experience at RPI under Seth Appert that they told me, "No one will ever hear anything but negative things about RPI hockey from us and, believe me, parents listen to that kind of thing."

I'm not saying no player should be cut or reduced to a bit player, but when the numbers get too high and include the current coach's own recruits, I worry about how that's perceived by prospective recruits.

Just my thoughts (and now you see why I can't post here more often - it's a major undertaking for me!).

Oh, I have no doubt that NCAA is different from Major Junior, where the 100% consideration is your game. However, we can have higher expectations at higher levels for these players, and most are very akin to what you've already posted. I fully agree there were a few players that were treated terribly at RPI. And on the other side of the coin, there are players that could use pine pony time based on their play but don't get it, whether it's because of favoritism, there's no other option, or something else. Consistency is the biggest ask here.

 

[Red Cloud]

Re: RPI Hockey 2017 - 2018: A Wealth of Notions

That's a four + year window - not a dish served to the impatient.

Hi. You must be new here.

 

[hab]

Re: RPI Hockey 2017 - 2018: A Wealth of Notions

Anybody here know whether video will be available online for either the men's or women's Mayors Cup games on Saturday?