rvd5star69
hockey
Re: RPI Hockey 2014-2015 Part II: Dedicated to Rich Curadi
Go with same lineups again hopefully
Go with same lineups again hopefully
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RPI Hockey 2014-2015 Part II: Dedicated to Rich Curadi
- Thread starter Ralph Baer
- Start date
Re: RPI Hockey 2014-2015 Part II: Dedicated to Rich Curadi
Thanks for the list. This is of course the simplest way to look at this but there are other factors as i mentioned that need to be accounted for such as actually knowing the total minutes of PP versus minutes SH and subtracting out calls at the end of the game that are just paper penalty calls. So we are a net -58 in penalty calls with the nearest competitor Princeton at -20 and no one else even close. I fully understand those who feel this is all explained by lack of discipline. I am not so sure that can possibly be the complete etiology as the difference is so striking.
Thanks for the list. This is of course the simplest way to look at this but there are other factors as i mentioned that need to be accounted for such as actually knowing the total minutes of PP versus minutes SH and subtracting out calls at the end of the game that are just paper penalty calls. So we are a net -58 in penalty calls with the nearest competitor Princeton at -20 and no one else even close. I fully understand those who feel this is all explained by lack of discipline. I am not so sure that can possibly be the complete etiology as the difference is so striking.
Re: RPI Hockey 2014-2015 Part II: Dedicated to Rich Curadi
Maybe FlagDude finally got to the refs!
Maybe FlagDude finally got to the refs!
FlagDUDE08
Banned
Re: RPI Hockey 2014-2015 Part II: Dedicated to Rich Curadi
The reason I've been providing conference game statistics is because it puts the teams on an equal footing. We had more games than any other team this year, so it makes sense that we'd have more minutes. Calculating the difference, it's 89 minutes in 17 NC games (playoff games are considered NC). The outlier Mayor's Cup had 31 PIM, and game 2 of the CCT series had 27, which accounts for 58 of that.
This is why looking at averages is important.
The reason I've been providing conference game statistics is because it puts the teams on an equal footing. We had more games than any other team this year, so it makes sense that we'd have more minutes. Calculating the difference, it's 89 minutes in 17 NC games (playoff games are considered NC). The outlier Mayor's Cup had 31 PIM, and game 2 of the CCT series had 27, which accounts for 58 of that.
This is why looking at averages is important.
FlagDUDE08
Banned
Re: RPI Hockey 2014-2015 Part II: Dedicated to Rich Curadi
We've made plenty of stupid plays that deserve calls, more often than becoming acquainted with Greg Louganis impersonators. When you look back at some of the games, such as the ones where we play Union and they seem to take zero penalties, there really isn't much that you can call them on. Not every ref call is BS. That's not to say we don't get called for making a noise on the glass, or a butterfinger dropping his stick, or a player conveniently losing his edge, but I'd venture a guess that at least 85% of our PIM were good calls.
Maybe FlagDude finally got to the refs!
We've made plenty of stupid plays that deserve calls, more often than becoming acquainted with Greg Louganis impersonators. When you look back at some of the games, such as the ones where we play Union and they seem to take zero penalties, there really isn't much that you can call them on. Not every ref call is BS. That's not to say we don't get called for making a noise on the glass, or a butterfinger dropping his stick, or a player conveniently losing his edge, but I'd venture a guess that at least 85% of our PIM were good calls.
Re: RPI Hockey 2014-2015 Part II: Dedicated to Rich Curadi
Hmm.... the left column adds to 1,404 and the right column to1,435. Upon first glance, wouldn't you expect the sum of PP to equal the sum of SH??
What would be an interesting addendum to this discussion would be whether other team have the same average penalties called against them when they play us compared to when they play anyone else. The average the left column is 117 with a standard deviation of 21, which might indicate that other teams may be getting called about the same when they play us compared to when they play anyone else.
On the other hand, the average of the right column is 120, with a standard deviation of 22. We are more than two standard deviations above the average!
That is really a lot. -58 for us, the next most is -20 for Princeton.
Union's 170 minutes on PP is an even greater anomaly.
Hmm.... the left column adds to 1,404 and the right column to1,435. Upon first glance, wouldn't you expect the sum of PP to equal the sum of SH??
What would be an interesting addendum to this discussion would be whether other team have the same average penalties called against them when they play us compared to when they play anyone else. The average the left column is 117 with a standard deviation of 21, which might indicate that other teams may be getting called about the same when they play us compared to when they play anyone else.
On the other hand, the average of the right column is 120, with a standard deviation of 22. We are more than two standard deviations above the average!
That is really a lot. -58 for us, the next most is -20 for Princeton.Union's 170 minutes on PP is an even greater anomaly.
Re: RPI Hockey 2014-2015 Part II: Dedicated to Rich Curadi
I'd like to add some drivel to the PP discussion if I may...
Puck possession drives some of this. Since RPI is bad at face-offs, we spend a larger percentage of time trying to get the puck rather than trying to keep it. As we all know, players with the puck draw penalties and players without it tend to commit them. So there's some ammo for your face-off fixation Doc.
Secondly, reputation starts to come into play. Living in Boston, I cannot tell you how frustrating it is to be a Bruins fan and see the level of non-calls that we get vs. the opponents. Yes, I realize I'm a fan and there are likely others out there who will disagree with me (especially if you are a Canadian's fan), but I like to think I can be pretty sober in my analysis of replays. Part of this is embellishment - in both a positive and negative way. Brad Marchand has developed a rep for being a rat and an embellisher. Embellishing is really frowned upon by Boston management - which has at times put Brad at odds with Bruins management in the past. He has cleaned up that part of his game somewhat - but it's too late. He has the rep across the league and it will not be easy to shake it (if ever). As a result, he needs to get absolutely mugged in order to get a call. And of course his rat reputation remains. The net effect is maddening. There have been a number of occasions this year where Marchand got a penalty for something and later had the exact same thing happen to him at the other end... with no call. Drives Julien crazy... makes him complain... which makes the refs think he rides them too much.. making them they are less likely to call things in the future.
Lucic falls into this same category but only in that he has a rep for playing rough (not diving). He fights through things that other forwards in the league don't so doesn't draw penalties. When he hits someone and it is borderline, refs rarely look the other way.
Take a look at the Bruins PP stats and you'll see a case similar to RPI. They just don't get calls. In Boston's case, since they win face offs and control the puck, it's more likely reputation that is behind some of it. And foot speed might play into it as well. For RPI, it's probably a lack of puck possession and maybe reputation. All it takes are a couple of meat heads (Wood and Devito) and a coach that the refs don't like (this is speculation of course). And I'll throw foot speed in there for RPI too - not on O but on D. The good thing about our D is that they are big. The bad thing about them is that they are big. Big brings strength - but not always speed. The game is all about speed these days.
I'd like to add some drivel to the PP discussion if I may...
Puck possession drives some of this. Since RPI is bad at face-offs, we spend a larger percentage of time trying to get the puck rather than trying to keep it. As we all know, players with the puck draw penalties and players without it tend to commit them. So there's some ammo for your face-off fixation Doc.
Secondly, reputation starts to come into play. Living in Boston, I cannot tell you how frustrating it is to be a Bruins fan and see the level of non-calls that we get vs. the opponents. Yes, I realize I'm a fan and there are likely others out there who will disagree with me (especially if you are a Canadian's fan), but I like to think I can be pretty sober in my analysis of replays. Part of this is embellishment - in both a positive and negative way. Brad Marchand has developed a rep for being a rat and an embellisher. Embellishing is really frowned upon by Boston management - which has at times put Brad at odds with Bruins management in the past. He has cleaned up that part of his game somewhat - but it's too late. He has the rep across the league and it will not be easy to shake it (if ever). As a result, he needs to get absolutely mugged in order to get a call. And of course his rat reputation remains. The net effect is maddening. There have been a number of occasions this year where Marchand got a penalty for something and later had the exact same thing happen to him at the other end... with no call. Drives Julien crazy... makes him complain... which makes the refs think he rides them too much.. making them they are less likely to call things in the future.
Lucic falls into this same category but only in that he has a rep for playing rough (not diving). He fights through things that other forwards in the league don't so doesn't draw penalties. When he hits someone and it is borderline, refs rarely look the other way.
Take a look at the Bruins PP stats and you'll see a case similar to RPI. They just don't get calls. In Boston's case, since they win face offs and control the puck, it's more likely reputation that is behind some of it. And foot speed might play into it as well. For RPI, it's probably a lack of puck possession and maybe reputation. All it takes are a couple of meat heads (Wood and Devito) and a coach that the refs don't like (this is speculation of course). And I'll throw foot speed in there for RPI too - not on O but on D. The good thing about our D is that they are big. The bad thing about them is that they are big. Big brings strength - but not always speed. The game is all about speed these days.
Ralph Baer
Let's Go 'Tute!
Re: RPI Hockey 2014-2015 Part II: Dedicated to Rich Curadi
That's overall, not conference stats. Thus, there is no reason to expect them to balance.
Hmm.... the left column adds to 1,404 and the right column to1,435. Upon first glance, wouldn't you expect the sum of PP to equal the sum of SH??
What would be an interesting addendum to this discussion would be whether other team have the same average penalties called against them when they play us compared to when they play anyone else. The average the left column is 117 with a standard deviation of 21, which might indicate that other teams may be getting called about the same when they play us compared to when they play anyone else.
On the other hand, the average of the right column is 120, with a standard deviation of 22. We are more than two standard deviations above the average!
Union's 170 minutes on PP is an even greater anomaly.
That's overall, not conference stats. Thus, there is no reason to expect them to balance.
ServinisScores
I'm an Implant Engineer
ServinisScores
I'm an Implant Engineer
Re: RPI Hockey 2014-2015 Part II: Dedicated to Rich Curadi
Personally, I think this is as complex as you need to be. It's a random sport, played by grown kids, which is reactionary, not strategic, Looking any deeper doesn't add value for me.. jmhusker has a great analysis which lends itself to this. We've said all year, their discipline, puck possession, and offensive creativity stinks. This data bears that out.
Personally, I think this is as complex as you need to be. It's a random sport, played by grown kids, which is reactionary, not strategic, Looking any deeper doesn't add value for me.. jmhusker has a great analysis which lends itself to this. We've said all year, their discipline, puck possession, and offensive creativity stinks. This data bears that out.
ServinisScores
I'm an Implant Engineer
Re: RPI Hockey 2014-2015 Part II: Dedicated to Rich Curadi
these aren't minutes, these are PP/SH opportunities. Some may last for 5 seconds, a few for 5 minutes....
Hmm.... the left column adds to 1,404 and the right column to1,435. Upon first glance, wouldn't you expect the sum of PP to equal the sum of SH??
What would be an interesting addendum to this discussion would be whether other team have the same average penalties called against them when they play us compared to when they play anyone else. The average the left column is 117 with a standard deviation of 21, which might indicate that other teams may be getting called about the same when they play us compared to when they play anyone else.
On the other hand, the average of the right column is 120, with a standard deviation of 22. We are more than two standard deviations above the average!
Union's 170 minutes on PP is an even greater anomaly.
these aren't minutes, these are PP/SH opportunities. Some may last for 5 seconds, a few for 5 minutes....
Ralph Baer
Let's Go 'Tute!
Re: RPI Hockey 2014-2015 Part II: Dedicated to Rich Curadi
I guess that it is all Gerry Beauclair's fault.
FlagDUDE08
Banned
Re: RPI Hockey 2014-2015 Part II: Dedicated to Rich Curadi
No, because this particular person is taking overall statistics, as opposed to conference statistics. Non-conference opponents are included.
Hmm.... the left column adds to 1,404 and the right column to1,435. Upon first glance, wouldn't you expect the sum of PP to equal the sum of SH??
What would be an interesting addendum to this discussion would be whether other team have the same average penalties called against them when they play us compared to when they play anyone else. The average the left column is 117 with a standard deviation of 21, which might indicate that other teams may be getting called about the same when they play us compared to when they play anyone else.
On the other hand, the average of the right column is 120, with a standard deviation of 22. We are more than two standard deviations above the average!
Union's 170 minutes on PP is an even greater anomaly.
No, because this particular person is taking overall statistics, as opposed to conference statistics. Non-conference opponents are included.
FlagDUDE08
Banned
Re: RPI Hockey 2014-2015 Part II: Dedicated to Rich Curadi
Here are the conference stats, this is number of special teams opportunities, NOT PIM:
Here are the conference stats, this is number of special teams opportunities, NOT PIM:
Code:
Team PP(Rk) PK(Rk)
BRN 68(10) 67(2)
CCT 67(11) 75(T5)
COL 84(2) 80(9)
COR 79(T4) 78(T7)
DAR 76(7) 78(T7)
HAR 79(T4) 73(4)
PRN 75(8) 83(10)
QU 79(T4) 75(T5)
RPI 54(12) 87(12)
SLU 82(3) 86(11)
UC 97(1) 68(3)
YAL 71(9) 61(1)Ralph Baer
Let's Go 'Tute!
Re: RPI Hockey 2014-2015 Part II: Dedicated to Rich Curadi
And they both add up to 911. What a coincidence!
And they both add up to 911. What a coincidence!
Re: RPI Hockey 2014-2015 Part II: Dedicated to Rich Curadi
Now this data tells a very different story. Princeton, RPI, SLU have roughly the same number of penalty kills, and so we are not nearly such an outlier during conference play on taking penalties (more than one standard deviation but less than two standard deviations, same as the other two).
However, we are really an extreme outlier when it comes to power play opportunities. We are the only team more than two standard deviations below the median when it comes to power play opportunities during conference play, the team with the second-least opportunities is within one standard deviation of the median. This is very striking.
For conference play only, we are not really too much of an outlier on how much we are penalized; we are very much an outlier on how little our opponents are penalized.
Given that they win something like 60%+ of faceoffs and also maintain more possession, it might indicate that we actually are doing a fairly decent job of avoiding penalties during conference play, given the disparity in possession that shows up in how infrequently opponents are penalized.
The data is probably not available to normalize penalties for / against relative to time of possession against / for.
Now this data tells a very different story. Princeton, RPI, SLU have roughly the same number of penalty kills, and so we are not nearly such an outlier during conference play on taking penalties (more than one standard deviation but less than two standard deviations, same as the other two).
However, we are really an extreme outlier when it comes to power play opportunities. We are the only team more than two standard deviations below the median when it comes to power play opportunities during conference play, the team with the second-least opportunities is within one standard deviation of the median. This is very striking.
For conference play only, we are not really too much of an outlier on how much we are penalized; we are very much an outlier on how little our opponents are penalized.
Given that they win something like 60%+ of faceoffs and also maintain more possession, it might indicate that we actually are doing a fairly decent job of avoiding penalties during conference play, given the disparity in possession that shows up in how infrequently opponents are penalized.
The data is probably not available to normalize penalties for / against relative to time of possession against / for.
Re: RPI Hockey 2014-2015 Part II: Dedicated to Rich Curadi
Of course, this topic would not be complete without my take. As always I applaud my colleague and good friend DrD on his willingness and steadfastness in taking on the "officiating" in the ECAC. Go back and take a look at the Cornell/Colgate weekend at home where we played our best weekend IMO and took the play to those guys (puck possession) and we still got the screw on calls. A fish rots from the top and the problem is Paul Stewart. It is not a conspiracy theory to say that there is bias. It has been proven by the following http://www.troyrecord.com/general-n...-warranted-ecac-needs-more-consistency-on-ice Some will look for explanation and call me a conspiracy theorist. As you know I faced down the league office on many occasions, they actually sent a reporter out to discredit me http://www.dailygazette.com/weblogs/schott/2010/nov/22/college-hockey-slap-schotts-2010-11-week-7/
We get the screw whatever metrics you look at. Thank you DrD for having the courage to take this head on. My luv to Jenny. That is all.
Of course, this topic would not be complete without my take. As always I applaud my colleague and good friend DrD on his willingness and steadfastness in taking on the "officiating" in the ECAC. Go back and take a look at the Cornell/Colgate weekend at home where we played our best weekend IMO and took the play to those guys (puck possession) and we still got the screw on calls. A fish rots from the top and the problem is Paul Stewart. It is not a conspiracy theory to say that there is bias. It has been proven by the following http://www.troyrecord.com/general-n...-warranted-ecac-needs-more-consistency-on-ice Some will look for explanation and call me a conspiracy theorist. As you know I faced down the league office on many occasions, they actually sent a reporter out to discredit me http://www.dailygazette.com/weblogs/schott/2010/nov/22/college-hockey-slap-schotts-2010-11-week-7/
We get the screw whatever metrics you look at. Thank you DrD for having the courage to take this head on. My luv to Jenny. That is all.
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