RFK Assassination: witness tells CNN 2 shooters

[solovsfett]

once again the wound is re-opened, re-examined, dissected. and once again I have the feeling that the single-shooter story as put forward by authorities as the truth behind 1, if not all 3 murders of RFK, MLK, JFK, is false, if not an outright intentional fabrication.

http://www.cnn.com/2012/04/28/justice/california-rfk-second-gun/index.html?hpt=hp_t2

at this rate I don't think we'll ever know what happened in 68x2 or 63. depressing really.

 

[FlagDUDE08]

Re: RFK Assassination: witness tells CNN 2 shooters

There was a columnist in 1965 who knew. She was murdered by the government, and it was made to look like a suicide. RIP Dorothy Kilgallen.

 

[Old Pio]

Re: RFK Assassination: witness tells CNN 2 shooters

once again the wound is re-opened, re-examined, dissected. and once again I have the feeling that the single-shooter story as put forward by authorities as the truth behind 1, if not all 3 murders of RFK, MLK, JFK, is false, if not an outright intentional fabrication.

http://www.cnn.com/2012/04/28/justice/california-rfk-second-gun/index.html?hpt=hp_t2

at this rate I don't think we'll ever know what happened in 68x2 or 63. depressing really.

Why did I know before I ever opened your post that this was a William Pepper production? He has evidently moved on from his claims that Army Rangers killed Dr.King and is now promoting this fairy tail. Why do you instinctively give credence to what some old lady says she saw and did over 40 years ago? Is there any offer of proof? Any at all? Or are we just supposed to give her the benefit of the doubt, relying on our paranoia that "unknown anti-Kennedy" forces were responsible?

William Pepper cannot be believed. He is a lying, irresponsible, publicity seeking scoundrel, whose many versions of famous events have all proven to be untrue. Sam Donalson put Pepper and a member of the group he'd said shot Dr. King together. And the ex-Ranger looked like he was about to beat Pepper to death. Told him he wouldn't shake hands with him. The guy was very angry. And why not? This pipsqueak had accused him of being an active participant in a murder.

The heart of Pepper's Dr. King theory is that evil forces sent a Ranger hit team to Memhis to take out Dr. King and they fired the fatal shot from ground level across the street. Now compare that with the picture we've all seen of Dr. King lying mortally wounded on the balconey, and several of his associates all pointing to a shooting point higher than ground level. Did they all get it wrong? The shot didn't come from across the street, from a higher point, it came from right in front? Really?

The night of Bobby's shooting, one of the most famous audio tapes of the event had an unknown reporter yelling to Rosie Grier (paraphrasing): "Get the gun. Get the gun, Rosie. Break his thumb if you have to. We don't want another Oswald." A whole roomful of people saw Sirhan shoot RFK. And they didn't see another gunman. Over the years we've had the usual post hoc ergo propor hoc logic: the "woman in the polka dot dress" and all the rest. But nothing approaching the sort of evidence we'd need to change the verdict of history.

As to JFK, IMO a rookie prosecutor could have convicted Owald. He was there. He was shooting (there were ear witnesses to his shooting directly below him on the 5th floor). Every bullet recovered matched Oswald's to the exclusion of any other rifle in the world. Oswald was the only depository employee who took off after the shooting. He told the guy who gave him a ride to work that morning that he had curtain rods (for his furnished room which had curtain rods) in a long package wrapped in brown paper. After the shooting, cops found no curtain rods, they did, however find the rifle and the brown paper. And Oswald had tried a previous unsuccessful assassination on the right wing nut General Walker.

Interesting side story: Robert McNeill of NBC (later of McNeill/Lehrer) was in Dallas that day and rushed into the depository looking for a pay phone. He asked some guy where they were. The guy pointed and headed on out the door. It was Oswald.

 

[solovsfett]

Re: RFK Assassination: witness tells CNN 2 shooters

There was a columnist in 1965 who knew. She was murdered by the government, and it was made to look like a suicide. RIP Dorothy Kilgallen.

I read about that and it scared the **** out of me to be honest. I wish she had recorded notes. IIRC she was bragging the weekend of her murder that she had news that was going to blow up the jfk case

 

[Old Pio]

Re: RFK Assassination: witness tells CNN 2 shooters

There was a columnist in 1965 who knew. She was murdered by the government, and it was made to look like a suicide. RIP Dorothy Kilgallen.

She knew in '65 who was responsible for killing Bobby in '68? Or are you referring to JFK? Either way Dorthy Kilgallen (who was a regular on "What's My Line") was only periferally involved. She died of a combination of booze and sleeping pills. She does, however, remain prominently on that list of people "killed" after the JFK assassination. And conspiracy theorists continue to scare themselves sleepless by telling and retelling that fairy tail.

And why didn't this "conspiracy," which killed dozens of people, some of whom had absolutely nothing to do with JFK, kill Mark Lane?

 

[solovsfett]

Re: RFK Assassination: witness tells CNN 2 shooters

Why did I know before I ever opened your post that this was a William Pepper production? He has evidently moved on from his claims that Army Rangers killed Dr.King and is now promoting this fairy tail. Why do you instinctively give credence to what some old lady says she saw and did over 40 years ago? Is there any offer of proof? Any at all? Or are we just supposed to give her the benefit of the doubt, relying on our paranoia that "unknown anti-Kennedy" forces were responsible?

William Pepper cannot be believed. He is a lying, publicity seeking scoundrel, whose many versions of famous events have all proven to be untrue. Sam Donalson put Pepper and a member of the group he'd said shot Dr. King together. And the ex-Ranger looked like he was about to beat Pepper to death. Told him he wouldn't shake hands with him. The guy was very angry. And why not? This pipsqueak had accused him of being an active participant in a murder.

The night of Bobby's shooting, one of the most famous audio tapes of the event had an unknown reporter yelling to Rosie Grier (paraphrasing): "Get the gun. Get the gun, Rosie. Break his thumb if you have to. We don't want another Oswald." A whole roomful of people saw Sirhan shoot RFK. And they didn't see another gunman. Over the years we've had the usual post hoc ergo propor hoc logic: the "woman in the polka dot dress" and all the rest. But nothing approaching the sort of evidence we'd need to change the verdict of history.

As to JFK, IMO a rookie prosecutor could have convicted Owald. He was there. He was shooting (there were ear witnesses to his shooting directly below him on the 5th floor). Every bullet recovered matched Oswald's to the exclusion of any other rifle in the world. Oswald was the only depository employee who took off after the shooting. He told the guy who gave him a ride to work that morning that he had curtain rods (for his furnished room which had curtain rods) in a long package wrapped in brown paper. After the shooting, cops found no curtain rods, they did, however find the rifle. And Oswald had tried a previous unsuccessful assassination on the right wing nut General Walker.

Interesting side story: Robert McNeill of NBC (later of McNeill/Lehrer) was in Dallas that day and rushed into the depository looking for a pay phone. He asked some guy where they were. The guy pointed and headed on out the door. It was Oswald.

I'm far from an expert, years ago I read a few books and left it at that in regard to all 3 of these. so I know only what my teachers told me which is what gov't told us over the years, and then what some of the books put forth which was a much different picture. what I come back to is this, there's nothing to gain by a 68-year old woman coming forward now except a. ridicule or b. maybe, just maybe she can help forward and spotlight information we didn't/don't have

if you want my .02 I feel there was more going on to the jfk than just oswald but we're never going to know exactly what and who. I just simply don't believe this guy did this by himself. I don't believe he killed the cop (certainly don't believe that based on the evidence) and I don't believe he was going to the movie theater for anything other than to meet someone.

re: general walker I don't think I've read anywhere from anyone that Oswald had anything to do w/that. in fact, what I read said there were no suspects...again that was years ago I read all this, early 90's so...

but the rfk one is becoming more interesting to me as there is real activity there now...

 

[solovsfett]

Re: RFK Assassination: witness tells CNN 2 shooters

She knew in '65 who was responsible for killing Bobby in '68? Or are you referring to JFK? Either way Dorthy Kilgallen (who was a regular on "What's My Line") was only periferally involved. She died of a combination of booze and sleeping pills. She does, however, remain prominently on that list of people "killed" after the JFK assassination. And conspiracy theorists continue to scare themselves sleepless by telling and retelling that fairy tail.

that one was jfk. I may have to re-open whatever book I read her story in.

 

[Old Pio]

Re: RFK Assassination: witness tells CNN 2 shooters

that one was jfk. I may have to re-open whatever book I read her story in.

She's definitely on the list of people "killed" by the JFK conspiracy, all right. But even assuming she made the statement about "blowing up the JFK case," why would you believe her, absent any evidence? She may have been drunk. Or showing off. Or referring to something unrelated to who "actually" killed the president.

William Manchester (author of "American Caesar" and "The Arms of Krupp") wrote the first history of JFK's death. It was called "Death of a President." And the Kennedy's gave him access to make sure he told the story right. He has said (paraphrasing): In the Holocaust you had a rough balance--greatest crime, greatest criminals. But in the killing of President Kennedy it doesn't seem to balance. The life of this president as against "this wretched waif, Owald." Greater weight is needed to balance the loss of a president. A conspiracy would do nicely.

I've mentioned before that Jackie Cooper Jr was a roommate of mine for a while at DU. Coop was utterly convinced it was a conspiracy, and that LBJ was responsible. I haven't talked to him in decades. Wonder if he still blames LBJ or if he's found other villains?

 

[FlagDUDE08]

Re: RFK Assassination: witness tells CNN 2 shooters

I read about that and it scared the **** out of me to be honest. I wish she had recorded notes. IIRC she was bragging the weekend of her murder that she had news that was going to blow up the jfk case

She did have notes. They were destroyed.

 

[Old Pio]

Re: RFK Assassination: witness tells CNN 2 shooters

I'm far from an expert, years ago I read a few books and left it at that in regard to all 3 of these. so I know only what my teachers told me which is what gov't told us over the years, and then what some of the books put forth which was a much different picture. what I come back to is this, there's nothing to gain by a 68-year old woman coming forward now except a. ridicule or b. maybe, just maybe she can help forward and spotlight information we didn't/don't have

if you want my .02 I feel there was more going on to the jfk than just oswald but we're never going to know exactly what and who. I just simply don't believe this guy did this by himself. I don't believe he killed the cop (certainly don't believe that based on the evidence) and I don't believe he was going to the movie theater for anything other than to meet someone.

re: general walker I don't think I've read anywhere from anyone that Oswald had anything to do w/that. in fact, what I read said there were no suspects...again that was years ago I read all this, early 90's so...

but the rfk one is becoming more interesting to me as there is real activity there now...

No offense intended, but has your reading included any book that supports the official version of what happend in Dallas? Or have you limited yourself only to conspiracy books? There are two very good books I'd recommend: "Case Closed," by Gerald Posner and "Reclaiming History" by Vince Bugliosi.

What people get when they come forward decades later is attention, free meals, hotel rooms, plane rides, TV interviews and support from the conspiracy theorists. For many years after the assassination, Jean Hill (who was prominently featured in Oliver Stone's work of fiction) used to pass out business cards identifying herself as "the witness closest to the shooting." And until the day she died, she was an honored guest at conspiracy conventions. She was standing next to her friend, Mary Mooreman, who took the famous polaroid in which people with extremely vivid imaginations claim to see "badge man."

In the Hisotry Channel series "The Men Who Killed Kennedy," (which concluded it was Corsican drug dealers!) a guy by the name of Gordon Arnold came forward claiming to have been on the grassy knoll, in his Army uniform, and a shot passed directly over this head. Trouble is, none of the countless photos of the grassy knoll that day show anybody in an Army uniform. The standards of proof for people who offer these kinds of claims are non-existant. But they always receive a warm reception in some quarters (see previous paragraph)

The inference of subjective motivation from objective result is the dark heart of any conspiracy theory. I would just respectfully suggest broadening your horizons a bit to include opposing views. IMO, this latest Pepper side show amounts to nothing and will result in nothing.

 

[Old Pio]

Re: RFK Assassination: witness tells CNN 2 shooters

She did have notes. They were destroyed.

Notes of what? If they were destroyed, how do we know what they contained?

 

[goldy_331]

Re: RFK Assassination: witness tells CNN 2 shooters

So is mookie posting as solovsfett now?

Did mookie get another chain e-mail?

 

[FlagDUDE08]

Re: RFK Assassination: witness tells CNN 2 shooters

Notes of what? If they were destroyed, how do we know what they contained?

After the number of times she went to Texas, do you really think she had it all memorised? I mean, she was a very brilliant woman, but given she also did newspaper reporting with "The Voice of Broadway", I would think she'd write it down.

Also, everyone forgets that Oswald was NOT charged with killing Kennedy, but rather another officer. How is it, all of a sudden, that he becomes the fall guy?

 

[Old Pio]

Re: RFK Assassination: witness tells CNN 2 shooters

After the number of times she went to Texas, do you really think she had it all memorised? I mean, she was a very brilliant woman, but given she also did newspaper reporting with "The Voice of Broadway", I would think she'd write it down.

Also, everyone forgets that Oswald was NOT charged with killing Kennedy, but rather another officer. How is it, all of a sudden, that he becomes the fall guy?

By "it" I assume you're referring to alleged, never proven, suggestions that she had some secret knowledge of the assassination. Given that she was a well known drunk, if she had "proof" she probably would have written it down. However, it's not possible to know what was in notes that were destroyed, is it? And anything else about what she did or didn't "know" about the assassination is just speculation and hearsay.

As to charging of Oswald, I suspect they would have gotten around to it eventually. Federal/state issues to resolve. Charging him with killing Officer Tippitt was sufficient to hold him without bail.

 

[solovsfett]

Re: RFK Assassination: witness tells CNN 2 shooters

No offense intended, but has your reading included any book that supports the official version of what happend in Dallas? Or have you limited yourself only to conspiracy books? There are two very good books I'd recommend: "Case Closed," by Gerald Posner and "Reclaiming History" by Vince Bugliosi.

What people get when they come forward decades later is attention, free meals, hotel rooms, plane rides, TV interviews and support from the conspiracy theorists. For many years after the assassination, Jean Hill (who was prominently featured in Oliver Stone's work of fiction) used to pass out business cards identifying herself as "the witness closest to the shooting." And until the day she died, she was an honored guest at conspiracy conventions. She was standing next to her friend, Mary Mooreman, who took the famous polaroid in which people with extremely vivid imaginations claim to see "badge man."

In the Hisotry Channel series "The Men Who Killed Kennedy," (which concluded it was Corsican drug dealers!) a guy by the name of Gordon Arnold came forward claiming to have been on the grassy knoll, in his Army uniform, and a shot passed directly over this head. Trouble is, none of the countless photos of the grassy knoll that day show anybody in an Army uniform. The standards of proof for people who offer these kinds of claims are non-existant. But they always receive a warm reception in some quarters (see previous paragraph)

The inference of subjective motivation from objective result is the dark heart of any conspiracy theory. I would just respectfully suggest broadening your horizons a bit to include opposing views. IMO, this latest Pepper side show amounts to nothing and will result in nothing.

I've read Posner. the thing is on both sides there isn't any questioning whatsoever of their own theories, and I DO call Posner a theorist as much as Mark Lane. Posner was on the hunt to destroy conspiracy theories and his book came out immediately after the movie to try and debunk Lane, and Gordon (over whoever the guy was that published the book w/all the pictures). there was a lot of money made on both sides of this, and I'm sure there still will be

like I said, I don't believe in a particular story or theory here except that a 2nd shooter in rfk is sounding compelling given the acoustic evidence, and I believe that the "official stories" are missing some pretty significant facts.

there never was a full investigation as to who killed tippet, nor why those bullets didn't match LHO's gun

anyway, that's tangential, my point is holy **** another person comes forward saying there was more than 1 shooter in one of the JFK/RFK/MLK shootings.

what she has to gain by this (I cannot fathom what she'd gain actually) seems insignificant to the wave of stories that will now come out against her

 

[Old Pio]

Re: RFK Assassination: witness tells CNN 2 shooters

I've read Posner. the thing is on both sides there isn't any questioning whatsoever of their own theories, and I DO call Posner a theorist as much as Mark Lane. Posner was on the hunt to destroy conspiracy theories and his book came out immediately after the movie to try and debunk Lane, and Gordon (over whoever the guy was that published the book w/all the pictures). there was a lot of money made on both sides of this, and I'm sure there still will be

like I said, I don't believe in a particular story or theory here except that a 2nd shooter in rfk is sounding compelling given the acoustic evidence, and I believe that the "official stories" are missing some pretty significant facts.

there never was a full investigation as to who killed tippet, nor why those bullets didn't match LHO's gun

anyway, that's tangential, my point is holy **** another person comes forward saying there was more than 1 shooter in one of the JFK/RFK/MLK shootings.

what she has to gain by this (I cannot fathom what she'd gain actually) seems insignificant to the wave of stories that will now come out against her

Again, with no intent to offend, belief in these conspiracies has taken on the contours of religion: belief without proof. And I make it a practice never to argue with anybody about religion. Collectively, you and the rest of the "true believers" may be right. I wasn't there in Dallas or LA or Memphis. And I didn't see what happened with my own two eyes. But I do believe the consensus of history correctly puts the blame on Oswald and Sirhan and Ray. Is it possible there are other explanations? Sure. I just don't think Mark Lane and William Pepper are going to provide them. They are among the least reputable people in the country.

 

[solovsfett]

Re: RFK Assassination: witness tells CNN 2 shooters

Again, with no intent to offend, belief in these conspiracies has taken on the contours of religion: belief without proof. And I make it a practice never to argue with anybody about religion. Collectively, you and the rest of the "true believers" may be right. I wasn't there in Dallas or LA or Memphis. And I didn't see what happened with my own two eyes. But I do believe the consensus of history correctly puts the blame on Oswald and Sirhan and Ray. Is it possible there are other explanations? Sure. I just don't think Mark Lane and William Pepper are going to provide them. They are among the most disreputable people in the country.

I agree mostly. I don't buy Posner or Stone, I just think there is more out there based on what both sides have presented. basically if it's a case closed why respond (posner), as for Stone and the guys he followed, well, clearly most of their theories have been debunked over time.

unfortunately we didn't have citizen journalism like we do today that would have made any other aspects to these stories (if any) immediate and front-page news.

 

[Old Pio]

Re: RFK Assassination: witness tells CNN 2 shooters

I agree mostly. I don't buy Posner or Stone, I just think there is more out there based on what both sides have presented. basically if it's a case closed why respond (posner), as for Stone and the guys he followed, well, clearly most of their theories have been debunked over time.

unfortunately we didn't have citizen journalism like we do today that would have made any other aspects to these stories (if any) immediate and front-page news.

Speaking of "JFK," it's one of my favorite films, despite its numerous lies and distortions. You may be too young to remember JFK's favorite comedian, Mort Sahl. When the film came out, Sahl cracked: "I've got good news and bad news. The good news is they're going to make the definitive move about WWII. The bad news is, Kevin Costner's gonna play Hitler."

The hero of the movie, Jim Garrison, was completely in the pocket of the NO mob, headed by Carlos Marcelo. In two terms as DA he brought not a single organized crime prosecution. Not one.

Incidentally, Garrison was followed as DA of Orleans Parish by Harry Connick, whose son had other career plans.

 

[solovsfett]

Re: RFK Assassination: witness tells CNN 2 shooters

Speaking of "JFK," it's one of my favorite films, despite its numerous lies and distortions. You may be too young to remember JFK's favorite comediaian, Mort Sahl. When the film came out, Sahl cracked: "I've got good news and bad news. The good news is they're going to make the definitive move about WWII. The bad news is, Kevin Costner's gonna play Hitler."

The hero of the movie, Jim Garrison, was completely in the pocket of the NO mob, headed by Carlos Marcelo. In two terms as DA he brought not a single organized crime prosecution. Not one.

I love that movie for a couple of reasons: 1. the acting. Joe Pesci is absolutely over-the-top. Matthau is ok, but Lemon is great. the overt politics in the movie get a little grating but its Stone so that's unavoidable. 2. despite focusing on Jim Garrison's flights of fancy I'm glad it got masses of people to think about history and how it's presented good or bad. is what we read really the whole story?, type of thing, regardless of who's presenting.

it's IMPOSSIBLE to believe Marcelo wasn't investigated for any of dozens of activities by Garrison. I mean not one solitary investigation into Carlo by Garrison at any point in time. some day it'd be nice if *that* story would come out in detail as well.

 

[Old Pio]

Re: RFK Assassination: witness tells CNN 2 shooters

I love that movie for a couple of reasons: 1. the acting. Joe Pesci is absolutely over-the-top. Matthau is ok, but Lemon is great. the overt politics in the movie get a little grating but its Stone so that's unavoidable. 2. despite focusing on Jim Garrison's flights of fancy I'm glad it got masses of people to think about history and how it's presented good or bad. is what we read really the whole story?, type of thing, regardless of who's presenting.

it's IMPOSSIBLE to believe Marcelo wasn't investigated for any of dozens of activities by Garrison. I mean not one solitary investigation into Carlo by Garrison at any point in time. some day it'd be nice if *that* story would come out in detail as well.

I learned that factoid from a panel discussion about the movie and Garrison involving local NO experts, one of whom was a long time crime reporter for the Times Picayune. Louisiana and particularly NO was as corrupt and under mob domination as any city in the country, including Chicago. Garrison's JFK investigation (for which he solicited donations from the public!) was one of the worst miscarriages of justice, ever. He had nothing on Clay Shaw except vicious gossip from people like Perry Russo. Maybe Garrison had it in for Shaw because he was gay. But even in those days, that was hardly newsflash material in the Quarter.

Here's the problem with "JFK" as I see it: Millions of young Americans will rely on it as their "primary source" for the assassination. Some of them might have been encouraged to do some additional reading. Some of them, like you, might even be inclined to read something that supports the "official" version. However, I fear most of 'em just moved on to other things. The movie is their "history" and their "truth."

Yeah, Pesci was great: "Don't you get it? The shooters don't even know." Asner was also outstanding: "Somebody's been going through my files."