Religion Thread: We Could Say a Prayer

[5mn_Major]

Re: Religion Thread: We Could Say a Prayer

Yeah. How much is going on in the boy scouts? It happens everywhere.

 

[joecct]

Re: Religion Thread: We Could Say a Prayer

Boom!

https://www.lifesitenews.com/mobile...ce=LifeSiteNews.com&__twitter_impression=true

EDIT: National Catholic Register claims to have confirmed that B16 did sanction then Cardinal McCarrick.

 

[ericredaxe]

Re: Religion Thread: We Could Say a Prayer

https://www-m.cnn.com/2018/08/28/us...-of-coverup/index.html?r=https://www.cnn.com/

At this point wouldn’t it just be better for all for the church to disband as an entity?

As a minimum they have no credibility anymore when offering opinion on morality.

 

[leswp1]

Re: Religion Thread: We Could Say a Prayer

Not a Catholic and don't really believe in the premise of Pope infallibility, needing a priest to be the middleman or Doctrine but.... I feel for those who are true spirits and are faithful. They say Power tends to corrupt and absolute power corrupts absolutely. I believe it. People who have pure motives have a hard time dealing or winning against people who lack integrity. For people who believe in the Catholic 'system' this totally messes with the foundation of their faith.

 

[joecct]

https://www-m.cnn.com/2018/08/28/us...-of-coverup/index.html?r=https://www.cnn.com/

At this point wouldn’t it just be better for all for the church to disband as an entity?

As a minimum they have no credibility anymore when offering opinion on morality.

The Church itself is without error on matters of faith and morals.

Those who abuse and/or cover up or enable abuse of kids and adults are pond scum and need to go. If that means that the number of bishops and priests is 1/3 it is what it is now and the number of dioceses and parishes are 1/3 of today's total, then so be it.

Sometimes you must pare the limbs to save the tree. This now looks like the case.

 

[St. Clown]

Re: Religion Thread: We Could Say a Prayer

Not a Catholic and don't really believe in the premise of Pope infallibility, needing a priest to be the middleman or Doctrine but.... I feel for those who are true spirits and are faithful. They say Power tends to corrupt and absolute power corrupts absolutely. I believe it. People who have pure motives have a hard time dealing or winning against people who lack integrity. For people who believe in the Catholic 'system' this totally messes with the foundation of their faith.

Infallibility of the Pope has to do with strictly Catholic doctrine. Outside of that, Catholics admit to historical Papal mistakes. I've been asking these questions of someone who majored in Catholic catechesis.

 

[leswp1]

Re: Religion Thread: We Could Say a Prayer

The Church itself is without error on matters of faith and morals.

Those who abuse and/or cover up or enable abuse of kids and adults are pond scum and need to go. If that means that the number of bishops and priests is 1/3 it is what it is now and the number of dioceses and parishes are 1/3 of today's total, then so be it.

Sometimes you must pare the limbs to save the tree. This now looks like the case.

Serious question- What is 'The Church'?
If I understand correctly the Church believes in Doctrine as guidance, not Scripture. Doctrine directly contradicts scripture in many incidences (priests celibacy vs specific instruction in Timothy where Bishops are supposed to be married).
So, it is the people who create Doctrine who define/give direction to the Church rather than Christ or Scripture as their directive overrides previous instruction from both.
The administrative/leadership creates the Doctrine= what 'The Church' is.
These are the people who are perpetrators or have harbored them.
How do you separate 'the Church' from the people who are the perpetrators when they are the ones who define what the Doctrine is?

 

[joecct]

Serious question- What is 'The Church'?
If I understand correctly the Church believes in Doctrine as guidance, not Scripture. Doctrine directly contradicts scripture in many incidences (priests celibacy vs specific instruction in Timothy where Bishops are supposed to be married).
So, it is the people who create Doctrine who define/give direction to the Church rather than Christ or Scripture as their directive overrides previous instruction from both.
The administrative/leadership creates the Doctrine= what 'The Church' is.
These are the people who are perpetrators or have harbored them.
How do you separate 'the Church' from the people who are the perpetrators when they are the ones who define what the Doctrine is?

Church Triumphant - those in heaven
Church Militant - us
Church Penitant - those not here, but not yet in heaven. We call that Purgatory. Luther tossed this 500 years ago. We kept it based on Maccabees.

On matters of theology, we defer to the theologians. On matters of morality we, the laity, can and should correct.

We are all prone to sin, from the greatest to the least. The teachers need to be held to a higher standard as they could lead those who depend and rely on them into son and error.

The clerics who abuse kids, adolescents and adults are committing a grave moral (mortal) sin. Those who cover up or look the other way are just as guilty.

Those who live an immoral life style are also sinners. I leave it up to The Boss to determine the degree.

To be forgiven, the sinner needs to confess his sin, repent and promise to sin no more and then do penance. For our clerics, the confession needs a public part as well as the repentance. Then they have to go.

 

[leswp1]

Re: Religion Thread: We Could Say a Prayer

Church Triumphant - those in heaven
Church Militant - us
Church Penitant - those not here, but not yet in heaven. We call that Purgatory. Luther tossed this 500 years ago. We kept it based on Maccabees.

On matters of theology, we defer to the theologians. On matters of morality we, the laity, can and should correct.

We are all prone to sin, from the greatest to the least. The teachers need to be held to a higher standard as they could lead those who depend and rely on them into son and error.

The clerics who abuse kids, adolescents and adults are committing a grave moral (mortal) sin. Those who cover up or look the other way are just as guilty.

Those who live an immoral life style are also sinners. I leave it up to The Boss to determine the degree.

To be forgiven, the sinner needs to confess his sin, repent and promise to sin no more and then do penance. For our clerics, the confession needs a public part as well as the repentance. Then they have to go.

Wellll, I believe he pointed out it was a convenient thing to make money.... I thought they got rid of it but maybe that was Limbo.

I guess I still don't know how the Clergy, who define what is correct, don't define the Church. They are the ones that say what is right, wrong and what is acceptable. Aren't they the ones that define what morality is?

 

[ericredaxe]

Re: Religion Thread: We Could Say a Prayer

The Church itself is without error on matters of faith and morals.

No offense intended but this comes off as a very self-righteous belief.

Those who abuse and/or cover up or enable abuse of kids and adults are pond scum and need to go. If that means that the number of bishops and priests is 1/3 it is what it is now and the number of dioceses and parishes are 1/3 of today's total, then so be it.

This seems to be fairly obvious, yet somehow seems to have eluded the church for years.

Sometimes you must pare the limbs to save the tree. This now looks like the case.

And other times it makes more sense to chop the tree down and start fresh by planting a new one. This more seems to be the case to me.

 

[joecct]

Re: Religion Thread: We Could Say a Prayer

Eric

Re point 1.

The belief comes from the Gospel of Matthew

"Thou art Peter and upon this rock I will build My Church and the gates of Hell shall not prevail against it.
Whatsoever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven and whatsoever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven."

The Church was proclaimed dead after one of the Congresses of Vienna by, I believe, an English diplomat. He was in error.

Rome has been sacked a number of times. The Church still prevails.

Holy Mother Church will be around, with a Pope, but I think it needs to be less power mad (as in secular ties) than it has been since the 4th century.

 

[5mn_Major]

Re: Religion Thread: We Could Say a Prayer

https://www-m.cnn.com/2018/08/28/us...-of-coverup/index.html?r=https://www.cnn.com/

At this point wouldn’t it just be better for all for the church to disband as an entity?

As a minimum they have no credibility anymore when offering opinion on morality.

The answer is no. The brand does create a lot of value. They should be fully reformed and a core of accountability among their members needs to be created.

 

[5mn_Major]

Re: Religion Thread: We Could Say a Prayer

How do you separate 'the Church' from the people who are the perpetrators when they are the ones who define what the Doctrine is?

The above may be the important question. Its the same as if the DNC committed a series of scandals. I believe not many of us would not walk away from the party with considering it entirely disband.

You might say...well what about a potentially corrupting influence of using doctrine vs. scripture? There really isn't anything in doctrine that supports turning a blind eye to child abuse. These priests just appear to be trying to protect the broader institution because of the good it does (and it does a stunning amount of good). Of course sweeping crimes under the carpet is a very human approach that's been thousands of times before elsewhere...but here it just has much worse implications for multiple reasons. Catholic institutions just require a rigorous overhaul, stringent moral culture reinforcement and rules based oversight by the church itself.

 

[joecct]

Re: Religion Thread: We Could Say a Prayer

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">These are the docs required to bring cookies to parties at Catholic school. Agree to become a 'mandated reporter' of anything suspicious AND do 3 hours of training. If this what the laity is required to do for cookies, perhaps answering Vigano's allegations isn't too much to ask. <a href="https://t.co/eE3LKgBpqb">pic.twitter.com/eE3LKgBpqb</a></p>— CatholicVote.org (@CatholicVote) <a href="https://twitter.com/CatholicVote/status/1034865881342455808?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">August 29, 2018</a></blockquote>
<script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

 

[The Sicatoka]

Re: Religion Thread: We Could Say a Prayer

Its the same as if the DNC committed a series of scandals.

< white flag of truce up >

"If"?
Donna Brazile and Bernie Sanders on line one for you.

 

[The Sicatoka]

Re: Religion Thread: We Could Say a Prayer

Catholic institutions just require a rigorous overhaul, stringent moral culture reinforcement and rules based oversight by the church itself.

You missed: quit trying to fix it in-house. Civil crimes mean civil authorities and civil punishments.

Rend unto Caesar ... and Caesar's calling for some of these pedo-priests that are citizens to face the civil authorities.

 

[5mn_Major]

Re: Religion Thread: We Could Say a Prayer

You missed: quit trying to fix it in-house. Civil crimes mean civil authorities and civil punishments.

Rend unto Caesar ... and Caesar's calling for some of these pedo-priests that are citizens to face the civil authorities.

That goes unsaid. The total 'reformation' shouldn't.

 

[joecct]

You missed: quit trying to fix it in-house. Civil crimes mean civil authorities and civil punishments.

Rend unto Caesar ... and Caesar's calling for some of these pedo-priests that are citizens to face the civil authorities.

"...You are a priest forever according to the Order of Melchizedek..."

They have to be stripped of Holy Orders. Only the Church can do that. It can be done from a prison cell.

The Acts of Degradation of a cardinal, bishop, priest are fascinating and horrible to read. That's where you strip him of his office(s), similar to when an officer is cashiered following a court martial.

http://wdtprs.com/blog/2018/07/history-the-rite-of-degradation-of-a-bishop/

http://wdtprs.com/blog/2018/08/the-...m-the-order-of-priesthood-wherein-fr-z-rants/

 

[leswp1]

Re: Religion Thread: We Could Say a Prayer

Eric

Re point 1.

The belief comes from the Gospel of Matthew

"Thou art Peter and upon this rock I will build My Church and the gates of Hell shall not prevail against it.
Whatsoever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven and whatsoever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven."

The Church was proclaimed dead after one of the Congresses of Vienna by, I believe, an English diplomat. He was in error.

Rome has been sacked a number of times. The Church still prevails.

Holy Mother Church will be around, with a Pope, but I think it needs to be less power mad (as in secular ties) than it has been since the 4th century.

When I was teaching Confirmation I did a lot of reading and looking into the history of the Church as a number of our kids were children of lapsed Catholics. I read the Catholic version of history (Church websites) and then the 'rest of the world's' rendition (other churches, various history sites). They aren't even close. The Catholic version cherry picks how the 'Church' developed and describes it like narrative that was very linear with only one 'True Church'. Example- the one true Pope- there were 4 popes for centuries who were acknowledged by all the sects as Popes.

'The Church' has never been one entity. It has constantly been in flux, reinventing itself, splitting, having multiple sects with different beliefs existing at one time. The entity name 'The Church' may have 'prevailed' but the actual body called the Church has not ever been one pure definition even before the reformation.

 

[joecct]

When I was teaching Confirmation I did a lot of reading and looking into the history of the Church as a number of our kids were children of lapsed Catholics. I read the Catholic version of history (Church websites) and then the 'rest of the world's' rendition (other churches, various history sites). They aren't even close. The Catholic version cherry picks how the 'Church' developed and describes it like narrative that was very linear with only one 'True Church'. Example- the one true Pope- there were 4 popes for centuries who were acknowledged by all the sects as Popes.

'The Church' has never been one entity. It has constantly been in flux, reinventing itself, splitting, having multiple sects with different beliefs existing at one time. The entity name 'The Church' may have 'prevailed' but the actual body called the Church has not ever been one pure definition even before the reformation.

There has been only one true Pope. After a Council or two we labeled the rest anti Popes. Interesting note: A tombstone reads "Here lies Baldassarre Cossa, who used to be Pope John XXIII"

In the current example, if Francis was forced to resign at "gun point", that would be a violation of Canon Law. We would end up with two popes, with Francis being the de jure Pope and the new guy the de facto Pope. One would eventually be declared the legitimate successor of St. Peter.

I pray that doesn't happen.