What's new
By:
USCHO Fan Forum

This is a sample guest message. Register a free account today to become a member! Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members through your own private inbox!

  • The USCHO Fan Forum has migrated to a new plaform, xenForo. Most of the function of the forum should work in familiar ways. Please note that you can switch between light and dark modes by clicking on the gear icon in the upper right of the main menu bar. We are hoping that this new platform will prove to be faster and more reliable. Please feel free to explore its features.

Religion Thread: That's Me In the Corner...

Status
Not open for further replies.
Re: Religion Thread: That's Me In the Corner...

St. Clown said:
Again, it's not coincidence, it's co-opting. The Christian church moved Christmas to December 25 to act as the conversion carrot before turning to the stick. The Pagans all over Europe had their solstice rituals. The Romans were big on their Saturnalia parties (solstice booze fests), which is all Christmas was until 300 years ago, give or take a 100 years.
Click to expand...

Which is why I fall over laughing when the fundies on my news feed say "the pagans stole Christmas!"
 
Re: Religion Thread: That's Me In the Corner...

St. Clown said:
Again, it's not coincidence, it's co-opting. The Christian church moved Christmas to December 25 to act as the conversion carrot before turning to the stick. The Pagans all over Europe had their solstice rituals. The Romans were big on their Saturnalia parties (solstice booze fests), which is all Christmas was until 300 years ago, give or take a 100 years.
Click to expand...

Most (all?) of Christianity is a reworking of ageless agrarian myths, so you really had pagan solstice ceremonies (which are universal) co-opted by a faith which itself was pagan, dressed up with Neoplatonic philosophy by erudite Hellenstic Greeks embarrassed about the grubby eastern mystery cult origins. The whole rivalry between Christianity and paganism is a hoot* since it's really just Grain God 2.0 fighting with Grain God 1.0.

* Or would be, if not for all the murder and rapine by Christians during the process of "civilizing" the pagans.

Religion is mythology with an armory.
 
Last edited:
FreshFish said:
I like it that the timing of Easter is still linked to events in nature. There are intimations of something primeval about it, the whole idea of re-birth in the spring after the desolation of winter (in temperate and cooler climes, at least).

In theory, Easter might occur as early as March 22 or as late as April 25, depending upon whether the full moon is the day after or the day before the vernal equinox, and what day of the week that is.
Click to expand...

You know it's tied to Passover as Christ was executed the day after the Seder. It always begins on the 15th day of Nisan, which varies around the Gregorian Calendar.

Interestingly, the calculation of Easter varies between the Western and Eastern churches. Here's an explanation of why.

https://www.infoplease.com/calendar-holidays/major-holidays/tale-two-easters
 
Kepler said:
The Bundy Ranch of the Catholic Church.

I guess it's not Cafeteria Catholicism when conservatives do it? :confused: :p

What do you think of this site / piece? This wonderful story could come right out of Don Camillo.
Click to expand...

I am not a fan of how the Norvus Ordo was implemented. The music stinks, the altar boys are not an integral part of the Mass the way we were in 1965 or before and the rituals that made Catholicism Catholicism went poof!

On the other hand, Justice Scalia's funeral Mass was an example of how the NO should be celebrated.

I like the Extraordinary Form. I am also think the Anglican Ordnariate is supurb.

I don't think the good Dom Camillo would have liked how the NO was implemented either.
 
Re: Religion Thread: That's Me In the Corner...

joecct said:
I am not a fan of how the Norvus Ordo was implemented. The music stinks, the altar boys are not an integral part of the Mass the way we were in 1965 or before and the rituals that made Catholicism Catholicism went poof!

On the other hand, Justice Scalia's funeral Mass was an example of how the NO should be celebrated.

I like the Extraordinary Form. I am also think the Anglican Ordnariate is supurb.

I don't think the good Dom Camillo would have liked how the NO was implemented either.
Click to expand...

Camillo wouldn't have cared if it didn't affect the faithful's quality of life, nor would the guy on the cross he talks to. Much of Christ's admonition of Camillo in the stories is telling him to get over church politics and Do Good.

Now as we've discussed before, I am all for the Catholic Church going all the way back to Trent and giving them the true olde tyme religion. When they make me Pope Gregory XIX (under me all the anti-popes get reinstated and counted -- we can't just rename buildings out of JP2flake political correctness), I'm taking the job seriously and taking the church back to 1580 before the rot had set in. I love the hard core glam music and baroque art and believe they should lay it on thick and Counter Reformation.

But another of my True Religion Reforms will be to remind people that the whole idea of dogma is individual believers don't get to a la carte the liturgy to their whim. To paraphrase Cardinal Parcells, the real religion is what Holy Mother Church says it is. This is just as true when the novelty pulled-out-of-the-schismatic-buttocks styles itself "originalist" as when it is "progressive." After all, the single most dramatic advocate for a return to primitivism in Catholic history was Martin Luther -- remind me again how Catholic conservatives view him? ;)
 
Last edited:
Kepler said:
Camillo wouldn't have cared if it didn't affect the faithful's quality of life, nor would the guy on the cross he talks to. Much of Christ's admonition of Camillo in the stories is telling him to get over church politics and Do Good.

Now as we've discussed before, I am all for the Catholic Church going all the way back to Trent and giving them the true olde tyme religion. When they make me Pope Gregory XIX (under me all the anti-popes get reinstated and counted -- we can't just rename buildings out of JP2flake political correctness), I'm taking the job seriously and taking the church back to 1580 before the rot had set in. I love the hard core glam music and baroque art and believe they should lay it on thick and Counter Reformation.

But another of my True Religion Reforms will be to remind people that the whole idea of dogma is individual believers don't get to a la carte the liturgy to their whim. To paraphrase Cardinal Parcells, the real religion is what Holy Mother Church says it is. This is just as true when the novelty pulled-out-of-the-schismatic-buttocks styles itself "originalist" as when it is "progressive." After all, the single most dramatic advocate for a return to primitivism in Catholic history was Martin Luther -- remind me again how Catholic conservatives view him? ;)
Click to expand...

Piepkorn viewed Lutheranism as the reform branch of the Catholic Church.

Fascinating fellow, Arthur Piepkorn.
 
Re: Religion Thread: That's Me In the Corner...

joecct said:
Piepkorn viewed Lutheranism as the reform branch of the Catholic Church.

Fascinating fellow, Arthur Piepkorn.
Click to expand...

Which is funny, because I used to know a few Lutherans who felt that modern Lutheranism was just Catholicism Lite.
 
Re: Religion Thread: That's Me In the Corner...

Kep and I are having a friendly conversation in the Fark thread over The Blessed Virgin Mary.

We both agree she existed. I believe he believes in the Liberty Valence motto of printing the legend.

I contend that too much has happened in the intervening 2000 years to debunk Her reality and exalted status as the Mother of God.

And, May begins the 100th anniversary of the Apparitions at Fatima, Portugal.
 
Re: Religion Thread: That's Me In the Corner...

joecct said:
I contend that too much has happened in the intervening 2000 years to debunk Her reality and exalted status as the Mother of God.
Click to expand...

Siddhartha's been going strong for 2500 years. I see your Virgin and raise you a Buddha (and yes, he'd have hated it, but Jesus would probably have hated the converse so that's a wash).

I think Marianism is awesome and has done more to counter the misogyny of the (incredibly neurotic) Christian fathers than anything else. I am all for the story. But please, please keep in mind it's a story. That in and of itself does not mean it isn't important. Law is "just a story," but I think you'd agree it's pretty important.

Even if the baby pictures come out great you shouldn't give them more care than you do the actual baby.
 
Re: Religion Thread: That's Me In the Corner...

Kepler said:
Siddhartha's been going strong for 2500 years. I see your Virgin and raise you a Buddha (and yes, he'd have hated it, but Jesus would probably have hated the converse so that's a wash).

I think Marianism is awesome and has done more to counter the misogyny of the (incredibly neurotic) Christian fathers than anything else. I am all for the story. But please, please keep in mind it's a story. That in and of itself does not mean it isn't important. Law is "just a story," but I think you'd agree it's pretty important.

Even if the baby pictures come out great you shouldn't give them more care than you do the actual baby.
Click to expand...

At one point I saw or read something that related the advent of Mary in the Church as related to the sidelining of a Byzantine Royal- Sister to the king I believe. She venerated Mary and amplified her story in an attempt to re-insert women into the Church. Have read a bunch of stuff on the development of the church not generated by Church historians and it is fascinating to track the various elements that were introduced- celibacy for priests, praying to Saints, communion rules, the Mass, needing a Priest to intervene and give absolution, etc. All very different from what I understand Jesus to be saying.

I have asked a number of people and have not gotten an answer I can understand. How does the Catholic Church explain praying to various Saints (Mary included) and sidelining God? I wonder how they ever got this past the first group they told it was necessary. The Commandment- thou shall have no other Gods before me would seem to say pray to GOD, not pray to others.
 
Re: Religion Thread: That's Me In the Corner...

leswp1 said:
I have asked a number of people and have not gotten an answer I can understand. How does the Catholic Church explain praying to various Saints (Mary included) and sidelining God? I wonder how they ever got this past the first group they told it was necessary. The Commandment- thou shall have no other Gods before me would seem to say pray to GOD, not pray to others.
Click to expand...

You are asking for intercession with God from the saint. God is the only one with the power, but you're sucking up to one of his homies to get some help. My understanding (in a very much not dogma-approved way) is that while you are addressing the prayer to the saint it's more of a manner of addressing the envelop, "psst, pass this on to the big guy the next time you see him, eh?"

Anyway, it's not at all having multiple deities. The deity is still unitary and universal, in God. Even when you talk about the sanctity of the saints, all the godhood is just a reflection of God.

tl,; dr: A saint is a moon, deity is illumination. So while the moon "shines," that is by the reflected light of the sun, the one true source of light.

joe, how'd I do?
 
Re: Religion Thread: That's Me In the Corner...

But why, if God is all powerful, forgiving and loves all His children, would there be a for a middle-man to intercede? That is what I don't get. Would love to know the reason for the thought process that initially started to separate the supplicant from a direct relationship with God. God is smart enough to get it for Himself. All the say a prayer to Saint X, publish that it was successful stuff. This isn't what Jesus was saying so I know it is a Dogma/doctrine thingy. DId they initially have the priest say it for them? Off to Google to see if I can find the answer
 
Re: Religion Thread: That's Me In the Corner...

leswp1 said:
But why, if God is all powerful, forgiving and loves all His children, would there be a for a middle-man to intercede? That is what I don't get. Would love to know the reason for the thought process that initially started to separate the supplicant from a direct relationship with God. God is smart enough to get it for Himself. All the say a prayer to Saint X, publish that it was successful stuff. This isn't what Jesus was saying so I know it is a Dogma/doctrine thingy. DId they initially have the priest say it for them? Off to Google to see if I can find the answer
Click to expand...

How else do you build a kingdom for God on Earth if not by creating people who are chosen by God to leave His flock... to tithe their pay to His bank account?
 
Re: Religion Thread: That's Me In the Corner...

http://rightreason.org/2015/when-did-christians-first-pray-to-the-saints/ This guy asked the question but didn't really answer me
http://www.desiringgod.org/interviews/why-do-catholics-pray-to-mary
https://www.gotquestions.org/prayer-saints-Mary.html and http://ewtn.com/faith/teachings/maryc4.htm Pick and chose which one of the quotes is right.

and how can you go wrong with the BBC? http://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/religions/christianity/history/virginmary_1.shtml

So interesting to read different viewpoints assuming they are right (all sides).
 
Re: Religion Thread: That's Me In the Corner...

Timmy: Mom, does God ever change his mind?
Mom: No, Timmy, God is very wise and has a plan for everybody.
Timmy: Doesn't that make praying pointless then?
Mom:...
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top