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Religion Thread: That's Me In the Corner...

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Re: Religion Thread: That's Me In the Corner...

Question for atheists: were you raised an atheist, or, like me, did you have a "this is bull sh-t" moment?

Growing up, my mother was very serious about her Catholic faith, and her teachings were handed down to each of my four older brothers. They were raised in the Church, and attended Mass at least twice per week, sometimes more. When I was young (youngest of the five boys), my mom had a falling out with the local diocese and parish (I'm not even certain that the right term for the Catholic hierarchy) over how donations were to be given. My mom always made cash donations, as was the common practice in the Pittsburgh area throughout her younger years, and was never questioned in all the other churches she attended as my father's job had them hopping across the nation until our time here in MN. With all that said, because of her little schism with the Church, she stopped attended, my younger brothers all got their desperately sought after reprieve from attended, and I never was introduced into the Church in any sort of proper manner. She still tried to impress upon me the whole concept of God, Jesus and the Holy Trinity, but I was skeptical from the start. Ultimately I decided that no god willing to allow the atrocities in the world that I'd seen to that point, just to play out some game or plan, was worthy of worship, or he was simply no god at all.

You know, now that I think about it, maybe this goes further back. There is one moment from my junior HS year that still sticks out in my mind. During Lenten confession, I told Fr. Strasz that I was questioning God's existence. He told me that wasn't necessarily a sin, and explained, but I can't remember exactly what he said, other than it wasn't the standard, "Get behind me Satan!" response.

I liked him. He could be a harda55, but was very smart. Looking back, other than his lack of tolerance for bullsheet - he famously made our entire Catholic Morality class re-write our term papers after we collectively failed to meet his academic research/source citing standards (Turabian/Chicago format, BTW ;)) - I can't figure out how he ended up a Catholic priest. He should've been a college prof.

I work with a guy who is finishing up his PhD in Religion, focusing on some esoteric thing or another. Smart man, loves to dive into the nitty-gritty details, and has 100% faith in God. What he's doing here, I'm not entirely sure other than he needs to pay his bills and PhD courses ain't cheap.
 
Re: Religion Thread: That's Me In the Corner...

Question for atheists: were you raised an atheist, or, like me, did you have a "this is bull sh-t" moment?

I was raised in a very Catholic household (my father was a convert and my mother taught CCD for decades), but my parents were both intelligent and educated so I was raised to think for myself. It was assumed I would be a Catholic believer. The intellectual arguments for a supreme being (proof from design, the ontological proof, the teleological argument, Cartesian method, the Kantian workaround) and then the dogmatic arguments for why Christianity was the true religion (C. S. Lewis apologetica, Chesterton's debates with Russell) would impress me with their rigor and subtlety, and it would just "make sense" to me as it did to them. My father was much more an intellectual seeker of faith in the tradition of say Etienne Gilson; my mother had a strong emotional association of faith with family from her childhood in a deeply religious, riotously ethnic steel town where Czechs, Poles, Slovaks, Jews, and Rus would play together all week and then go to an old country language service Sunday and pray for the souls of all the other congregations who, sadly, were bound to go to hell because they had the liturgy wrong.

From the earliest I can remember I dismissed miracles and supernatural aspects of religion as either a deliberate con job by a priest class or pre-scientific theorizing and superstition. That I guess is the closest I had to a "this is B.S." moment in becoming an atheist. But that only knocks out the fundies and the other mental small fry. It wasn't until I was in my early teens and started having philosophical discussions with other kids that the sheer improbability of a creator vs the random effects of nature non-personified and not aware of our existence became, for me, obvious. That took out the pseudo-intellectual arguments purporting to "prove" a God "must" exist.

By late teens I was enough aware of both the wide array of faiths over the world and the history of how religions come to be (each of them essentially repeats the creation story of either Mormonism or the cargo cult) to consider religion just part of the "local color" of each civilization, with the unfortunate feature that morons will kill for it.

My two siblings actually turned out quite differently. My older hippy brother is non-observant but does believe that there's some sort of karmic balance pervading the fabric of the universe -- this is not allegorical to him but at some level "real." My sister wound up Catholic, but very much a comfort believer -- she uses ritual and, I suppose, faith, as a spare tire rather than a steering wheel. In my experience the vast majority of the religious fall into this category. Religion is a security blanket for them. They don't think too deeply about it and it is "real" in the Jamesian pragmatic sense: it works.

There were no real blow-ups or heated arguments in my family about religion. My parents were content in their faith, which they viewed as a mix of truth and metaphor, and also content to see us find our own way. They are my Platonic ideal of positive, healthy believers. They gave me the cognitive tools and encouraged me to use them, and they didn't pitch a fit when my path was different from theirs.
 
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Re: Religion Thread: That's Me In the Corner...

my mom had a falling out with the local diocese and parish (I'm not even certain that the right term for the Catholic hierarchy)

From largest to smallest: Pontificate --> Patriarchate --> Bishopric --> Diocese --> Parish.

The priest runs the parish. It's local and everybody knows each other, and the priest spends his time as an all-around spiritual handyman: leads the mass, hears confessions, administers communion and other sacraments, and collects donations. It's gossip central.

A bishop runs the diocese and mostly handles finance: grip and grin with local pols and rich donors, project planning for church construction or refurbishment, happy face appearances for charities and anything that gives good PR.

Bishoprics are, AFAIK, just AAA ball to the Diocesan AA ball. Archbishops and other "extraordinary" (an actual term of art) bishops set up shop here. They are bigger fish and, generally speaking, mo money mo problems.

The Patriarchates are the Executive VP slots and handle global issues of marketing, public relations, money laundering, and covering up pedophilia. They and the Vatican mahogany (Lebanon cedar?) row types have the general mien, reputation, and activities of mafiosi or lobbyists.

And the Pope runs the show.
 
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Re: Religion Thread: That's Me In the Corner...

Both my parents were raised by parents deeply involved in the church. My Dad is not a real talker about it. He never had much to say other than he wasn't the slightest interested in being involved in the church of his parents (rebellion). My Mum was the one who dealt with the God stuff. We went to the Unitarian Church. She was very interested in the one being concept and comparative religion. She also had no interest in the church of her childhood. At 86 she still has not gotten past needing to prove she can do what ever her mother didn't like. Her mother was religious so the church, any church, is a cult (extremely reacitve- my kid likes church- he is going to be a pastor and is completely brainwashed). :rolleyes:

I always believed in God but didn't belong to a church. I brought myself and got myself baptized when I was just starting work as an NP. Joined an ELCA Lutheran Church. Liked that it was open, encouraged dialogue and thought. Have never been able to blindly believe, still have questions but unlike Kep I have a bunch of things I can't explain without using God.

Maybe I am using God like a security blanket but it works for me and I can't figure out how I can deny something that seems to keep proving itself.
 
Re: Religion Thread: That's Me In the Corner...

North Dakota Blue Laws won't be repealed yet because Sunday mornings are for Jesus and family, apparently.

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friend...tizens-should-use-that-time-to-go-to-worship/

Old Fart said:
"Spending time with your wife, your husband — making him breakfast, bringing it to him in bed and then after that go take your kids for a walk,” state Rep. Bernie Santrom said when he denounced a bill that would end the state’s half-day ban on Sunday alcohol sales. His Republican colleague agreed, arguing that he cannot afford his wife having another full day of spending.

“I don’t know about you but my wife has no problem spending everything I earn in six and a half days. And I don’t think it hurts at all to have a half day off,” state Rep. Vernon Laning said.

I LOL'ed at this point.

I'm not necessarily opposed to blue laws - if you can't wait until noon one day of the week to buy liquor, then you have a serious problem - but using misogyny and Christianity as your reason is just silly.
 
Re: Religion Thread: That's Me In the Corner...

I LOL'ed at this point.

I'm not necessarily opposed to blue laws - if you can't wait until noon one day of the week to buy liquor, then you have a serious problem - but using misogyny and Christianity as your reason is just silly.

I hate Sunday being a regular day- workers in retail end up with no time off, forced to work in hol season, etc but tha reasoning lost me. More likely for theones who are in financial duress that is the only time to get chores done
 
Re: Religion Thread: That's Me In the Corner...

Maybe I am using God like a security blanket but it works for me and I can't figure out how I can deny something that seems to keep proving itself.

for practical people, being effective in life can be a lot more reasonable than being ineffective but "right."


from a long-term biological perspective, anything that helps you pass on your genes to the next generation is the only thing that "matters." Whatever else its perceived drawbacks, organized religions certainly "work" on that score. Emphasis not only on stable families but also on stable communities.

Sure there are associated drawbacks; there are very few things that are not good in some ways, bad in other ways.
 
Re: Religion Thread: That's Me In the Corner...

from a long-term biological perspective, anything that helps you pass on your genes to the next generation is the only thing that "matters." Whatever else its perceived drawbacks, organized religions certainly "work" on that score.

Organized religion has been around for about 5000 years, hardly an evolutionary timeframe.

I applaud the honesty in splitting off religion from reason, however. Emotional responses are a large part of human behavior, particularly primitive human behavior, and the attempt to retrofit them to rational standards has always been a literal rationalization.
 
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Re: Religion Thread: That's Me In the Corner...

Dear Christians...

When your churches are locked by the government, when you can't wear your crosses/Jesus T-shirts in public, when your churches get burned by Islamic militants, when you are being jailed and summarily executed by the government just for being Christian, and all your Bibles are burned in THIS country...

Only then can you whine about your religious freedom being taken away from you.

Because I still have yet to see how LGBT getting married or transgendered using the bathroom that corresponds to their gender identity... how that persecutes you. Let's face it: "religious freedom" is just a lousy excuse for you to be homophobic, transphobic bigots that use your religion as a reason to hate others.
 
Re: Religion Thread: That's Me In the Corner...

Was in Williamsburg this weekend and some numbnuts standing in the Market Square preaching some foolish nonsense about transgenders needing to get over themselves because they would have to live with the burden and ask God to help them be normal. Some guy, holding a baby, was arguing back with a very thick German accent. He was very logical. Thought the itinerant preacher was going to have a coronary. Man was he obnoxious. I wanted to ask him why he wasn't preaching about caring for your neighbor, feed the hungry, care for the widows and children? Jesus harped on those things. If you want to be a Christian spreading the word then talk about what Jesus cared about more. SHeesh. Wart on the backside of 'free speech'
 
Re: Religion Thread: That's Me In the Corner...

In all honesty I have rarely read a more concise, cogent and consistent criticism of scriptural fundamentalism than this.
 
Re: Religion Thread: That's Me In the Corner...

I like it that the timing of Easter is still linked to events in nature. There are intimations of something primeval about it, the whole idea of re-birth in the spring after the desolation of winter (in temperate and cooler climes, at least).

In theory, Easter might occur as early as March 22 or as late as April 25, depending upon whether the full moon is the day after or the day before the vernal equinox, and what day of the week that is.
 
Re: Religion Thread: That's Me In the Corner...

I like it that the timing of Easter is still linked to events in nature. There are intimations of something primeval about it, the whole idea of re-birth in the spring after the desolation of winter (in temperate and cooler climes, at least).

In theory, Easter might occur as early as March 22 or as late as April 25, depending upon whether the full moon is the day after or the day before the vernal equinox, and what day of the week that is.

Yeah, it's called co-opting Pagan rituals as a method of Christian conversion.
 
Re: Religion Thread: That's Me In the Corner...

I like it that the timing of Easter is still linked to events in nature. There are intimations of something primeval about it, the whole idea of re-birth in the spring after the desolation of winter (in temperate and cooler climes, at least).

In theory, Easter might occur as early as March 22 or as late as April 25, depending upon whether the full moon is the day after or the day before the vernal equinox, and what day of the week that is.

Yeah, it's called co-opting Pagan rituals as a method of Christian conversion.

There's also the near-coincidence of Christmas and the winter solstice.
 
Re: Religion Thread: That's Me In the Corner...

There's also the near-coincidence of Christmas and the winter solstice.

Again, it's not coincidence, it's co-opting. The Christian church moved Christmas to December 25 to act as the conversion carrot before turning to the stick. The Pagans all over Europe had their solstice rituals. The Romans were big on their Saturnalia parties (solstice booze fests), which is all Christmas was until 300 years ago, give or take a 100 years.
 
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