Religion Thread: That's Me In the Corner...

[5mn_Major]

Re: Religion Thread: That's Me In the Corner...

Why shouldn't we? Would the girl have been in the middle of a river down in NC if not for God? Would the missionaries have been haranguing the people they annoyed by being the uninvited, imposing visitors if not for God? God's got some blood on His hands.

Couldn't be that the poor girl had a tragic accident going down a river with some friends. In the eyes of many a skeptic, there is always blame and very little contribution.

Another super cool faith based charity - Compassion International

In 1952, the Rev. Everett Swanson went to South Korea to minister to the American troops who were fighting in the Korean War. While, in Seoul, he witnessed hundreds of war orphans living and dying in the streets, abandoned by society, he vowed to find a way to help them. Starting with a single orphanage, he created a program that provided food, clothing, medical care, shelter, and education to these unwanted children. Today, with the support of 14 sponsor countries around the world, nearly 2 million babies, children, and young adults are released from economic, social, and physical poverty through Compassion International’s programs.

 

[St. Clown]

Re: Religion Thread: That's Me In the Corner...

Couldn't be that the poor girl had a tragic accident going down a river with some friends. In the eyes of many a skeptic, there is always blame and very little contribution.

Nope. She was there for a church outing, in service to His majestic glory. Her death is on God's hands. His fault.

 

[leswp1]

Re: Religion Thread: That's Me In the Corner...

Nope. She was there for a church outing, in service to His majestic glory. Her death is on God's hands. His fault.

Seems like the current culture feels that something has to be to blame for everything.

Why does fault have to be assigned to God? That seems kind of simplistic.

Playing Devil's advocate (har-har)- could you not blame the evil force (Satan) for this occurring? Is there no human contribution to what happens or is it all pre-ordained? You could argue that God gave the tools for the person to be safe but they did not use them correctly. If you want to get philosophical the possibilities for blame are endless.

 

[St. Clown]

Re: Religion Thread: That's Me In the Corner...

Seems like the current culture feels that something has to be to blame for everything.

Why does fault have to be assigned to God? That seems kind of simplistic.

Playing Devil's advocate (har-har)- could you not blame the evil force (Satan) for this occurring? Is there no human contribution to what happens or is it all pre-ordained? You could argue that God gave the tools for the person to be safe but they did not use them correctly. If you want to get philosophical the possibilities for blame are endless.

But we don't have the tools to be safe from the water-born amoeba that destroyed this girl's brain.

Look, I'm not really blaming anyone or anything. Sometimes accidents happen and nature's a harsh thing, not populated entirely with Bambi and his mom, there are also lions, tigers and bears, and much smaller, much more insidious killers out there.

It's just that God gets praised for all that goes right in a person's life, yet people never turn it around on him when someone's doing service to His cause and dies as a result, like this girl. She would likely be alive right now had she not been in North Carolina for a church retreat.

 

[Kepler]

Re: Religion Thread: That's Me In the Corner...

It's just that God gets praised for all that goes right in a person's life, yet people never turn it around on him when someone's doing service to His cause and dies as a result, like this girl. She would likely be alive right now had she not been in North Carolina for a church retreat.

We invented God to project our need for purpose and justice onto nature. Evaluating God as arbitrary or unjust would defeat the whole purpose.

God is the first superhero. As long as the fanboys don't try to hook it up to real things like legislation or education, let them be.

 

[leswp1]

Re: Religion Thread: That's Me In the Corner...

But we don't have the tools to be safe from the water-born amoeba that destroyed this girl's brain.

Look, I'm not really blaming anyone or anything. Sometimes accidents happen and nature's a harsh thing, not populated entirely with Bambi and his mom, there are also lions, tigers and bears, and much smaller, much more insidious killers out there.

It's just that God gets praised for all that goes right in a person's life, yet people never turn it around on him when someone's doing service to His cause and dies as a result, like this girl. She would likely be alive right now had she not been in North Carolina for a church retreat.

I am not too obsessed with the whole Devil/Satan thing but until quite recently no one would have thought to blame God. It would have been Satan that did evil, not God allowing it.

 

[joecct]

I am not too obsessed with the whole Devil/Satan thing but until quite recently no one would have thought to blame God. It would have been Satan that did evil, not God allowing it.

Though there is the school of thought (see Job) that the Devil exists at God's sufferance.

And it makes sense as their can be only one Supreme Being. Everyone/thing else is subservient to God.

 

[leswp1]

Re: Religion Thread: That's Me In the Corner...

Though there is the school of thought (see Job) that the Devil exists at God's sufferance.

And it makes sense as their can be only one Supreme Being. Everyone/thing else is subservient to God.

Interesting. I never viewed it that way (admittedly, I am not schooled by a particular church on this). My understanding was tha Satan/Devil was in opposition to God but that God constantly battles to stay on top. Can't say I have thought about it all that much. Mostly I focus on the good.

My Grandmother, Christian Scientist firmly believed God only created good. Any evil- sickness, bad stuff- was a direct result of not having a 'pure' mind. If you were in concert with how God instructed you to be nothing bad happened- you didn't get sick, nothing bad happened, mosquitoes didn't bite you (she could be in the worst mosquito infested area and never be bitten. No repellent, just will.)

I had a patient who was an ardent Baptist who believed in demons possessing people, floating about waiting for an opening to do evil. Basically if you let your 'Christian' guard down they swooped in and did nasty things

 

[Kepler]

Re: Religion Thread: That's Me In the Corner...

Interesting. I never viewed it that way (admittedly, I am not schooled by a particular church on this). My understanding was tha Satan/Devil was in opposition to God but that God constantly battles to stay on top.

Nope, that's Manicheanism and it's a big time heresy.

In no country did Manichæism enter more insidiously into Christian life than in Egypt. One of the governors of Alexandria under Constantine was a Manichæan, who treated the Catholic bishops with unheard-of severity. St. Athanasius says of Anthony the Hermit (330) that he forbade all intercourse with "Manichæans and other heretics".

In the Eastern Roman Empire it came to the zenith of its power about A.D. 375-400, but then rapidly declined. But in the middle of the sixth century it once more rose into prominence. The Emperor Justinian himself disputed with them; Photinus the Manichæan publicly disputed with Paul the Persian. Manichæism obtained adherents among the highest classes of society. Barsymes the Nestorian prefect of Theodora, was an avowed Manichæan. But this recrudescence of Manichæism was soon suppressed.

Soon, however, whether under the name of Paulicians, or Bogomiles, it again invaded the Byzantine Empire, after having lain hidden for a time on Musselman territory. The following are the Imperial edicts launched against Manichæism: Diocletian (Alexandria, 31 March, 296) commands the Proconsul of Africa to persecute them, he speaks of them as a sordid and impure sect recently come from Persia, which he is determined to destroy root and branch (stirpitus amputari). Its leaders and propagators must be burnt, together with their books; the rank and file beheaded, people of note condemned to the mines, and their goods confiscated. This edict remained at least nominally in force under Constantine, and Constantius. Under Julian the Apostate, Manichæism seems to have been tolerated. Valentinian I and Gratian, though tolerant of other sects, made exception of the Manichæans. Theodosius I, by an edict of 381, declared Manichæans to be without civil rights and incapable of testamentary disposition. In the following year he condemned them to death under the name of Encratites, Saccophores, and Hydroparastates. Valentinian II confiscated their goods, annulled their wills, and sent them into exile. Honorius in 405 renewed the edicts of his predecessors, and fined all governors of cities or provinces who were remiss in carrying out his orders; he invalidated all their contracts, declared them outlaws and public criminals. In 445 Valentinian III renewed the edicts of his predecessors; Anastasius condemned all Manichæans to death; Justin and Justinian decreed the death penalty, not only against Manichæans who remained obstinate in their heresy, but even against converts from Manichæism who remained in touch with their former co-religionists, or who did not at once denounce them to the magistrates. Heavy penalties were likewise decreed against all State officials who did not denounce their colleagues, if infected with Manichæism, and against all those who retained Manichæan books. It was a war of extermination and was apparently successful, within the confines of the Byzantine Empire.

The Bogomils in particular are lots of fun, and the Orthodox Christian attacks on them are where the term "buggery" comes from.

 

[leswp1]

Re: Religion Thread: That's Me In the Corner...

OK. That made my head hurt. So we are supposed to ignore all the stuff in the Bible where God triumphs over Satan (Pretty sure that stuff is in the Catholic Bible. Must assume some Doctrine statement negates that part?) and just move on. Got it.

I thought Gnosticism was the belief that what was important about Jesus was His living and the knowledge He imparted while alive, not that He was resurected. At least that is what I have read in a number of different books. Of course the Catholic definition of something is usually a bit different than the Protestant viewpoint

 

[Kepler]

Re: Religion Thread: That's Me In the Corner...

OK. That made my head hurt. So we are supposed to ignore all the stuff in the Bible where God triumphs over Satan (Pretty sure that stuff is in the Catholic Bible. Must assume some Doctrine statement negates that part?) and just move on. Got it.

I thought Gnosticism was the belief that what was important about Jesus was His living and the knowledge He imparted while alive, not that He was resurected. At least that is what I have read in a number of different books. Of course the Catholic definition of something is usually a bit different than the Protestant viewpoint

God doesn't have any problem triumphing over Satan -- it's not a fair right. Remember, Satan is just a cog in God's meat grinder -- he's the regional director of Hell and also a district manager in charge of deceiving man from the right path (because free will doesn't mean anything if the only item on the menu is the way of the Lord). The people who have to fight to triumph over Satan are you and I, with God's inspiration and the guidance of Holy Mother Church.

Donations don't hurt, either.

Gnosticism is different. I'm mostly unclear on it, and I have a feeling so are Gnostics, but it has to do with loathing the physical and believing it's a sort of trick to trap our souls in filth. This can get pretty inconvenient, like when you decide you're not going to eat and you're not going to make little Gnostics. When it springs up it tends to last only one generation for some reason...

The Albigensians were Gnostics, which is a shame because otherwise they were a hoot, and they really got the wind up the Catholic Church, so much so that the pope called down a crusade on them, which was... unusual. In fact "kill em all and let God sort em out" is a quote of one of the Catholic generals in that battle, and by battle I mean genocidal massacre.

 

[leswp1]

Re: Religion Thread: That's Me In the Corner...

God doesn't have any problem triumphing over Satan -- it's not a fair right. Remember, Satan is just a cog in God's meat grinder -- he's the regional director of Hell and also a district manager in charge of deceiving man from the right path (because free will doesn't mean anything if the only item on the menu is the way of the Lord). The people who have to fight to triumph over Satan are you and I, with God's inspiration and the guidance of Holy Mother Church.

Donations don't hurt, either.

Gnosticism is different. I'm mostly unclear on it, and I have a feeling so are Gnostics, but it has to do with loathing the physical and believing it's a sort of trick to trap our souls in filth. This can get pretty inconvenient, like when you decide you're not going to eat and you're not going to make little Gnostics. When it springs up it tends to last only one generation for some reason...

The Albigensians were Gnostics, which is a shame because otherwise they were a hoot, and they really got the wind up the Catholic Church, so much so that the pope called down a crusade on them, which was... unusual. In fact "kill em all and let God sort em out" is a quote of one of the Catholic generals in that battle, and by battle I mean genocidal massacre.

God still has to fight Satan, even if he will win. Humans might fight and mess up, letting Satan win before God comes in to fix it. Simplified but you get the point.

Any Catholics on here want to take a stab at what the current Doctrine re this is?

If you are into reading very dry but interesting religious stuff read Heresies of the Early Christian Church. They have a great description of Gnosticism.

 

[The Sicatoka]

Re: Religion Thread: That's Me In the Corner...

God still has to fight Satan, even if he will win. Humans might fight and mess up, letting Satan win before God comes in to fix it. Simplified but you get the point.

Any Catholics on here want to take a stab at what the current Doctrine re this is?

Go to the "good book". No, not that one, the Catechism of the Catholic Church:

395 The power of Satan is, nonetheless, not infinite. He is only a creature, powerful from the fact that he is pure spirit, but still a creature. He cannot prevent the building up of God's reign. Although Satan may act in the world out of hatred for God and his kingdom in Christ Jesus, and although his action may cause grave injuries - of a spiritual nature and, indirectly, even of a physical nature- to each man and to society, the action is permitted by divine providence which with strength and gentleness guides human and cosmic history. It is a great mystery that providence should permit diabolical activity, but "we know that in everything God works for good with those who love him."

 

[5mn_Major]

Re: Religion Thread: That's Me In the Corner...

It's just that God gets praised for all that goes right in a person's life, yet people never turn it around on him when someone's doing service to His cause and dies as a result, like this girl. She would likely be alive right now had she not been in North Carolina for a church retreat.

Although it isn't clear based on your first post, but let's assume for a minute you have a legitimate question. That is to say your above sentence. The following is in essence what many believe:

So for starters, God is love. That is why John says 'whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love'. And how do you know you're being shown love? By acts of kindness. This concept may sound difficult to grasp or for some far fetched. Let's take this a step further.

My parents were wonderful. They sheltered me, fed me, educated me and gave me opportunity. Sometimes I wasn't happy with them at the time and they taught me tough love lessons and I am better for it. But I can't think of anything significantly bad to say about them. On the other hand as a child, I had free will. I went out did stupid stuff like going places I shouldn't and incurred injury in the process. I don't blame my parents for that. My parents did what they could to aid me, offered advisory boundaries, and allowed me to leave the house. God wouldn't be the only to employ this approach.

 

[joecct]

God still has to fight Satan, even if he will win. Humans might fight and mess up, letting Satan win before God comes in to fix it. Simplified but you get the point.

Any Catholics on here want to take a stab at what the current Doctrine re this is?

If you are into reading very dry but interesting religious stuff read Heresies of the Early Christian Church. They have a great description of Gnosticism.

Since Satan is a fallen angel of God, he has no dominion over God. God permits Satan to tempt us (posess us, etc.). It is up to us to resist the charms of the Devil.

See Job. The Devil has to ask permission to ruin Job. In the end, Job triumphs. But there's a catch. When Job asks God why, God roars back with "BECAUSE I'M GOD!!!"

If you're really interested, google Prayer to St. Michael and the history of how the Prayer came to be. The Prayer was supressed after Mass in 1965. Holy Mother Church has been stepping on landmines since.

Currently hearing a sermon about sin and Hell is a rarity. Confession is a rarity. Now "it's all goodness and mercy" and no consequences.

 

[burd]

Re: Religion Thread: That's Me In the Corner...

Though there is the school of thought (see Job) that the Devil exists at God's sufferance.

And it makes sense as their can be only one Supreme Being. Everyone/thing else is subservient to God.

I realize the Epicurean paradox has been discussed before on this site, but it seems fitting to bring it up in this discussion:


Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?

 

[leswp1]

Re: Religion Thread: That's Me In the Corner...

...So for starters, God is love. .

My MIL died young. The priest had a very good Homily- he said people would ask how could God allow her to die young? And then he pointed out that it was us who suffered her loss. She was perfectly fine, no more suffering, gone to meet God, in a good place. So it wasn't a punishment to her at all. She was not going to miss anything. It was arresting to think of it that way.

You could ask the same question re the kid with the amoebae- if she had faith and presumably believed the ultimate success was to be with God she would be fine. It is all of us who are complaining she doesn't have to live thru the rest of human suffering called life and she is gone before we think she should have been done

 

[LynahFan]

My MIL died young. The priest had a very good Homily- he said people would ask how could God allow her to die young? And then he pointed out that it was us who suffered her loss. She was perfectly fine, no more suffering, gone to meet God, in a good place. So it wasn't a punishment to her at all. She was not going to miss anything. It was arresting to think of it that way.

You could ask the same question re the kid with the amoebae- if she had faith and presumably believed the ultimate success was to be with God she would be fine. It is all of us who are complaining she doesn't have to live thru the rest of human suffering called life and she is gone before we think she should have been done

So all good Christians should off themselves now to end their suffering?

 

[joecct]

Re: Religion Thread: That's Me In the Corner...

Islam and modern US culture

http://www.theamericanconservative.com/dreher/islam-and-the-benedict-option/

The Benedict Option explained (wiki):

Dreher is known for writing about what he calls the "Benedict Option". This is named after Benedict of Nursia, and uses a phrase from Alasdair MacIntyre's 1981 book After Virtue. It is the idea that those who want to live with traditional morality should separate themselves to some degree from mainstream society and try to live in intentional communities or other subcultures.

Not a fan as it leads to a Balkanization of society. But there are religious communities that practice their monastic order's rules in this country already. And Sea Girt on the Jersey shore followed the Methodist's rules for years. Still too many self suffucient, disengaged communites is not good.

 

[Kepler]

Re: Religion Thread: That's Me In the Corner...

Not a fan as it leads to a Balkanization of society. But there are religious communities that practice their monastic order's rules in this country already. And Sea Girt on the Jersey shore followed the Methodist's rules for years. Still too many self suffucient, disengaged communites is not good.

It actually worked great during the 19th century immigration waves. "Assimilation" really didn't get cracking until we needed a national army for WW1. Before that, insular ethnic and religious communities were all over the place.

BTW, super rec for the Alasdair MacIntyre reference. One of my personal favorite philosophers.

Though I wince in seeing him referenced in a partisan political argument. He is way more interesting than that.