Religion Thread: That's Me In the Corner...

[St. Clown]

Re: Religion Thread: That's Me In the Corner...

So I hear that we have an app...and atheists are building one on the fly.

So let's talk about this building on the fly. What was so wrong about Jesus teaching? Are you going to say 'nothing, its just great...I just don't believe in a guy sitting in a cloud'? Then why be a vocal atheist...who works against Jesus teaching? The principles are largely the same. People are using the same computer code as you and larger society to make decisions in their own lives. For many Christians, the Word is God (by definition). If one believes in Jesus' teaching are great and doesn't get so hung up on the big guy sitting in the cloud...then your views become so similar to that of many Christians. Then why not encourage exploration of those teachings (the Word) and possible benefits it can provide?

Peace and love are great, the Eye in the Sky creates the problem because so many of these people who attest that they're living in Jesus's light are some of the most hate filled bigots I've ever met.

You have a very distorted view of a great many Christians. It's been my experience, including far too many of my cousins fitting this bill, that Christians have a great deal of love and compassion for certain people and certain plights, but become very indignant if it's not the right set of circumstances, and those circumstances seem to change with the blowing winds at times. They also tend to be the most vocal Christians out there.

 

[unofan]

Again, I don't think one can prove faith is not reasonable.

But regardless...good...as you state, a question of reason vs. faith. So by definition, if many situations faith=positive personal outcomes that otherwise wouldn't be. Doesn't it then become 'reason vs. positive personal outcomes'?

I don't subscribe to your premise that faith inherently provides for more positive personal outcomes than realism. So no, it doesn't follow.

It may provide for different outcomes, to be sure. But different is simply that, different. They are not inherently better or worse options.

 

[5mn_Major]

Re: Religion Thread: That's Me In the Corner...

You have a very distorted view of a great many Christians. It's been my experience, including far too many of my cousins fitting this bill, that Christians have a great deal of love and compassion for certain people and certain plights, but become very indignant if it's not the right set of circumstances, and those circumstances seem to change with the blowing winds at times. They also tend to be the most vocal Christians out there.

I don't think I do. I know that many Christians are terrible human beings. To that end, I've learned that x% of every strata in every society are terrible human beings. And I have no evidence that these are truly wonderful people before Christianity...and that Jesus turns them into A holes. None. I also find it unlikely that the folks who are really looking for answers in their life...and whom could benefit from some direction...would turn into terrible people with the discovery of the Word. In this context, faith is really a tool.

 

[5mn_Major]

Re: Religion Thread: That's Me In the Corner...

I don't subscribe to your premise that faith inherently provides for more positive personal outcomes than realism. So no, it doesn't follow.

You don't subscribe that faith in any permutation has the ability to provide more positive outcomes than realism?

 

[unofan]

You don't subscribe that faith in any permutation has the ability to provide more positive outcomes than realism?

I don't subscribe that faith of any permutation will provide more positive outcomes in the aggregate across humanity as a whole.

It may well provide a positive influence for some, maybe even many, individuals. But I think faith also can lead people to go down many dark paths.

Cultists are faithful. Islamic extremists are faithful. Prosperity Gospel preachers are faithful. That doesn't mean faith has been a positive influence on them.

Hence why it should be an individual choice.

 

[FadeToBlack&Gold]

Re: Religion Thread: That's Me In the Corner...

I don't subscribe to your premise that faith inherently provides for more positive personal outcomes than realism.

This. Claiming that atheism brings nothing to the table for humans, whereas faith - living how you're told to live because a deity and/or his prophet says this is the only way - somehow does, is the kind of logic I expect from someone who has to justify his entire existence by believing in a higher power. Someone who is too unimaginative to consider the alternatives.

 

[Kepler]

Re: Religion Thread: That's Me In the Corner...

So I hear that we have an app...and atheists are building one on the fly.

So let's talk about this building on the fly. What was so wrong about Jesus teaching? Are you going to say 'nothing, its just great...I just don't believe in a guy sitting in a cloud'? Then why be a vocal atheist...who works against Jesus teaching? The principles are largely the same. People are using the same computer code as you and larger society to make decisions in their own lives. For many Christians, the Word is God (by definition). If one believes in Jesus' teaching are great and doesn't get so hung up on the big guy sitting in the cloud...then your views become so similar to that of many Christians. Then why not encourage exploration of those teachings (the Word) and possible benefits it can provide?

I won't be able to respond at length now and this deserves it, so bear with me until I have time next week.

 

[leswp1]

Re: Religion Thread: That's Me In the Corner...

Peace and love are great, the Eye in the Sky creates the problem because so many of these people who attest that they're living in Jesus's light are some of the most hate filled bigots I've ever met.

You have a very distorted view of a great many Christians. It's been my experience, including far too many of my cousins fitting this bill, that Christians have a great deal of love and compassion for certain people and certain plights, but become very indignant if it's not the right set of circumstances, and those circumstances seem to change with the blowing winds at times. They also tend to be the most vocal Christians out there.

In my experience the more obnoxious, intolerant people are more visible than those who quietly try to do the right thing. Just like I don't view the extremist Muslims as 'real' Muslims, I tend not to view obnoxious, judgemental 'Christians' as 'real' either.

This. Claiming that atheism brings nothing to the table for humans, whereas faith - living how you're told to live because a deity and/or his prophet says this is the only way - somehow does, is the kind of logic I expect from someone who has to justify his entire existence by believing in a higher power. Someone who is too unimaginative to consider the alternatives.

Maybe it is because Faith tends to have a set of beliefs or rules that are laid out where as Atheists are not an organized entity and are defined more by what they do not believe rather than what they believe. Not saying that Atheists bring nothing but more that they are stand alone vs a structured organization. (If not, then I stand corrected)

 

[FadeToBlack&Gold]

Re: Religion Thread: That's Me In the Corner...

IMO, the only requirement for being an atheist, is to not believe in any sort of power greater than the physics and natural energies of the universe. By extension, it means believing that humanity and the sciences have the ability to eventually learn what it all means, without having to resort to explanations of gods, magic, mysticism, and other, purely faith-based explanations.

 

[leswp1]

Re: Religion Thread: That's Me In the Corner...

IMO, the only requirement for being an atheist, is to not believe in any sort of power greater than the physics and natural energies of the universe. By extension, it means believing that humanity and the sciences have the ability to eventually learn what it all means, without having to resort to explanations of gods, magic, mysticism, and other, purely faith-based explanations.

but Athiests do not have a directive to do anything in particular where as most religions do

 

[joecct]

Re: Religion Thread: That's Me In the Corner...

If it harms no one, do it.
Protect the weak from the strong.

 

[state of hockey]

Re: Religion Thread: That's Me In the Corner...

Atheists can't truly have a directive. They aren't an organized entity. To be one they would have to be, well, a religion. That isn't happening. I realize religious organizations have done great things with charity. But a lot of people seem to think no atheist has. There are a lot of atheists out there that have been or are great philanthropists.

I'm an atheist, but I don't try to stop other people from believing. I just try to stop people from writing their beliefs into laws I'm then forced to follow.

 

[burd]

Re: Religion Thread: That's Me In the Corner...

I believe in the Man in the Sky and that He has many human traits. For one, He knows hockey and is tickled pink that North Dakota finally got it done this year. He stayed out of it, though, which made it even sweeter for Him.

He did have a hand in BC losing though, which, to the extent He can have guilty pleasures, was one.

 

[LynahFan]

You don't subscribe that faith in any permutation has the ability to provide more positive outcomes than realism?

I don't. I literally believe that the world would be a better place if our ancestors had never invented super-human dieties to justify the depraved disfunctions in our lizard brains. Want sexual dominance over women? No problem - they're inferior, flawed creations who can't keep their paws off an apple I just invented. Want ti own slaves? Piece of cake - the man in the sky put the imaginary mark of Cain on them and said it's ok. Sexually frustrated in this life? No worries - I'll make up a story about 72 virgins in the afterlife if you just go murder a bunch of people. And on, and on.

Religion perpetuates divisions into us vs. them, which retards human progress, period. Any anecdotes of "positive personal outcomes" are meaningless, random fluctuations superimposed over an overwhelmingly nevative bias signal.

Find me a rational atheist in favor of one of those homophobic bathroom bills, and then we can talk.

 

[5mn_Major]

Re: Religion Thread: That's Me In the Corner...

I don't. I literally believe that the world would be a better place if our ancestors had never invented super-human dieties to justify the depraved disfunctions in our lizard brains. Want sexual dominance over women? No problem - they're inferior, flawed creations who can't keep their paws off an apple I just invented. Want ti own slaves? Piece of cake - the man in the sky put the imaginary mark of Cain on them and said it's ok. Sexually frustrated in this life? No worries - I'll make up a story about 72 virgins in the afterlife if you just go murder a bunch of people. And on, and on.

Religion perpetuates divisions into us vs. them, which retards human progress, period. Any anecdotes of "positive personal outcomes" are meaningless, random fluctuations superimposed over an overwhelmingly nevative bias signal.

Find me a rational atheist in favor of one of those homophobic bathroom bills, and then we can talk.

I'm not surprised that that is your personal opinion. But the general point your trying to claim is impossible to substantiate. I'd love to hear the Jesus (i.e., God) passage that results in any of the behavior you claim. I won't either. Because Jesus, the Word, was against everything you claim that its for.

So how's the world without faith? The scientific method says 'lets test it' and technically we did. Your preferred world existed before the Bible was printed and disseminated. And it was horrible. It took faith based leaders to change it...and they did from slavery to healthcare to child labor to charity to equal representation and civil rights.

'That I am not a member of any Christian Church, is true; but I have never denied the truth of the Scriptures. I think that if anything can be proved by natural theology, it is that slavery is morally wrong.'

Abraham Lincoln

 

[LynahFan]

Re: Religion Thread: That's Me In the Corner...

You really think that the world before the Bible was fully rational, free from faith or superstition? Is that you, Alicia Silverstone?

How in the world do you think that quote supports your thesis that your personal interpretation of the Christian religion is the sine qua non of human progress, when clealy Lincoln did just fine without it?

 

[St. Clown]

Re: Religion Thread: That's Me In the Corner...

I'm not surprised that that is your personal opinion. But the general point your trying to claim is impossible to substantiate. I'd love to hear the Jesus (i.e., God) passage that results in any of the behavior you claim. I won't either. Because Jesus, the Word, was against everything you claim that its for.

So how's the world without faith? The scientific method says 'lets test it' and technically we did. Your preferred world existed before the Bible was printed and disseminated. And it was horrible. It took faith based leaders to change it...and they did from slavery to healthcare to child labor to charity to equal representation and civil rights.

'That I am not a member of any Christian Church, is true; but I have never denied the truth of the Scriptures. I think that if anything can be proved by natural theology, it is that slavery is morally wrong.'

Abraham Lincoln

The world before the Bible simply used different heavenly voices to disseminate their reasons for the rain, sun, lightning and storms. In fact, they were highly organized for the technology available to them at the time.

Besides, Lincoln shows that you can live a perfectly civilized life, and actually be THE leader to end slavery in this nation, WITHOUT use of the Bible or Jesus.

 

[5mn_Major]

Re: Religion Thread: That's Me In the Corner...

As soon as I asked you to validate your stance with any Jesus (i.e., God) passages that supported your position...the below general position faded in a hurry:

I don't. I literally believe that the world would be a better place if our ancestors had never invented super-human dieties to justify the depraved disfunctions in our lizard brains. Want sexual dominance over women? No problem - they're inferior, flawed creations who can't keep their paws off an apple I just invented. Want ti own slaves? Piece of cake - the man in the sky put the imaginary mark of Cain on them and said it's ok. Sexually frustrated in this life? No worries - I'll make up a story about 72 virgins in the afterlife if you just go murder a bunch of people. And on, and on.

Lincoln was not spiritual?

'It is my constant anxiety and prayer that I and this nation should be on the Lord's side'

Abraham Lincoln

Guys please. I find that non believers who say 'realism' is the only thing that matter seem to have frequent difficulty with facts.

 

[unofan]

Re: Religion Thread: That's Me In the Corner...

As soon as I asked you to validate your stance with any Jesus (i.e., God) passages that supported your position...the below general position faded in a hurry:

Again, since the vast majority of Christianity believes the entire Bible is the Word of God, and a substantial portion believes it is literally true, I can point to numerous passages in the Old Testament and even parts of the New Testament that would support those acts. You don't even have to go that far; the Adam and Eve origin story in Genesis has been used for millennia to justify treating women as evil temptresses.

That you believe Jesus' own words (as written by four men and re-written countless times by other men) are the end all be all of Christianity is great for you, but you're also not what most people would consider a mainstream Christian, so I wish you'd stop pretending you speak for all of Christendom. And I thought we were talking generically about faith versus realism as a whole; I didn't realize we had to tailor it to your individual beliefs.

Your preferred world existed before the Bible was printed and disseminated. And it was horrible. It took faith based leaders to change it...and they did from slavery to healthcare to child labor to charity to equal representation and civil rights.

Oh, and let's not forget this nugget. If you don't think that faith existed long before Christianity was even a gleam in the eye of the disciples' great, great, great, great grandparents or that there were faith based leaders leading the charge at various points in time, then you really need to take a history lesson. Or hell, just read the Bible and remember that Jesus was himself a Jew. And, as I've said throughout this thread, faith at those times was both a force for good and evil, so let's not pretend that Christianity is somehow unique above all other faiths in establishing morals.

 

[5mn_Major]

Re: Religion Thread: That's Me In the Corner...

Great, at least somebody's participating.

Again, since the vast majority of Christianity believes the entire Bible is the Word of God, and a substantial portion believes it is literally true, I can point to numerous passages in the Old Testament and even parts of the New Testament that would support those acts. You don't even have to go that far; the Adam and Eve origin story in Genesis has been used for millennia to justify treating women as evil temptresses.

That you believe Jesus' own words (as written by four men and re-written countless times by other men) are the end all be all of Christianity is great for you, but you're also not what most people would consider a mainstream Christian, so I wish you'd stop pretending you speak for all of Christendom. And I thought we were talking generically about faith versus realism as a whole; I didn't realize we had to tailor it to your individual beliefs.

Your position is not based in fact. Per a Gallup poll, 28% of Americans say that the Bible is literal. And only 9% believes 'that absolute moral truth exists; the Bible is totally accurate in all of the principles it teaches; Satan is considered to be a real being or force, not merely symbolic; a person cannot earn their way into Heaven by trying to be good or do good works; Jesus Christ lived a sinless life on earth; and God is the all-knowing, all-powerful creator of the world who still rules the universe today.' (Barna)

On the other hand, a CBS poll has 68% of Americans believing that Jesus is God or the son of God. Also Wikipedia, the most scrutinized definition in the world, defines Christianity as ' based on the life and teachings of Jesus Christ as presented in the New Testament.'

Looks like your position that we should put details of the Old Testament ahead of Jesus' Word doesn't hold any water.

If you don't think that faith existed long before Christianity was even a gleam in the eye of the disciples' great, great, great, great grandparents or that there were faith based leaders leading the charge at various points in time, then you really need to take a history lesson. Or hell, just read the Bible and remember that Jesus was himself a Jew. And, as I've said throughout this thread, faith at those times was both a force for good and evil, so let's not pretend that Christianity is somehow unique above all other faiths in establishing morals.

My pov was that Christianity added a large variety of benefits by itself (still haven't seen anyone refute that). I freely add that other religions add value too. If you're posing that other religions are adding lots of value too, it doesn't bode well for Lynah's position that faith has not added any value...and even yours' that Realism is always more important than Faith.

Hmm...I'm seeing faiths but not Atheism in your credit for societal progress and morality. Why's that?