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Religion Thread: That's Me In the Corner...

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Re: Religion Thread: That's Me In the Corner...

Kepler said:
I think those are among the five most important realizations about life. Though none of his points require the God hypothesis.

Much of the misreading of atheists by people of faith is they assume that without faith one or more of those axioms falls. We might understand one another better if we accepted that whatever story we've come up with the explain things, naturalistic or supernaturalistic, we are at heart all dealing with the same set of issues. Much like Democrats and Republicans, the metaphysics is just an accident of birth and influences -- our hardware and software all encounter the same intractable conditions.

I would alter them slightly:

1. Life is hard.
2. Your life is not primarily about you.
3. Nobody is in control.
4. Nothing is that important.
5. You are going to die.
Click to expand...

There are many clichés associated with cancer survival, but as on who survived when the prospects were a little dim, I can say it has a grounding, calming effect. I think that feeling comes in part from being reminded of the conditions you cite. Not an awakening or an epiphany--just an increased awareness of basic concepts one already understands to be true.
 
Re: Religion Thread: That's Me In the Corner...

88%. Not bad considering I haven't opened a Bible in about 20 years.
 
Re: Religion Thread: That's Me In the Corner...

I came across an interesting article recently that suggests that the question "does God exist?" is nonsensical from a practical standpoint.

Rather, the better question is, "can belief in a Deity give a selective advantage to the believer?"

which in turn helps reinforce something I always suspected: whether belief in a Deity is the right thing for you personally, or not, does not necessarily apply to anyone else.

I don't really care whether you believe in a Deity or not, nor do I care much which organized form of religion, if any, you adhere to. If it works for you, that's great; I wouldn't expect what works for me would necessarily work for you or not, and the converse also is applicable.

I think it is this element that makes (that subset of) atheists who denigrate others' belief in religion so annoying. Why would it bother you so much what someone else believes is right for them? You can't even offer them salvation as an inducement to adopt your worldview!
 
Re: Religion Thread: That's Me In the Corner...

FreshFish said:
I came across an interesting article recently that suggests that the question "does God exist?" is nonsensical from a practical standpoint.

Rather, the better question is, "can belief in a Deity give a selective advantage to the believer?"

which in turn helps reinforce something I always suspected: whether belief in a Deity is the right thing for you personally, or not, does not necessarily apply to anyone else.

I don't really care whether you believe in a Deity or not, nor do I care much which organized form of religion, if any, you adhere to. If it works for you, that's great; I wouldn't expect what works for me would necessarily work for you or not, and the converse also is applicable.

I think it is this element that makes (that subset of) atheists who denigrate others' belief in religion so annoying. Why would it bother you so much what someone else believes is right for them? You can't even offer them salvation as an inducement to adopt your worldview!
Click to expand...

Well said.

In fact, I would extend that point to the benefits of the average non believer evaluating the role faith might play for themselves. As in...if anyone is truly interested in the welfare of others, wouldn't that person want and encourage a non believer to evaluate faith to see if it can truly improve their life? If so, then why do atheists spend so much energy trying to discourage others from the potential of improving their lives? In the end, where are atheist priorities?
 
5mn_Major said:
Well said.

In fact, I would extend that point to the benefits of the average non believer evaluating the role faith might play for themselves. As in...if anyone is truly interested in the welfare of others, wouldn't that person want and encourage a non believer to evaluate faith to see if it can truly improve their life? If so, then why do atheists spend so much energy trying to discourage others from the potential of improving their lives? In the end, where are atheist priorities?
Click to expand...

Please tell me you didn't just argue that "religious people trying to convert others are awesome because they're helpful, but atheists trying to get people to see things their way are just selfish *****s."

Please tell me I misinterpreted your logic.
 
Re: Religion Thread: That's Me In the Corner...

5mn_Major said:
In fact, I would extend that point to the benefits of the average non believer evaluating the role faith might play for themselves. As in...if anyone is truly interested in the welfare of others, wouldn't that person want and encourage a non believer to evaluate faith to see if it can truly improve their life? If so, then why do atheists spend so much energy trying to discourage others from the potential of improving their lives? In the end, where are atheist priorities?
Click to expand...

One guess would be: truth.

But there are a few things wrong with your question. First off, you greatly overestimate the amount of energy 99% of atheists spend in discouraging people from their faith. We do say things like, "there is no God," but that's simply an empirical observation. Are people of faith "discouraging atheists" with the endless litany of references to supernaturalism in their daily lives? No, they're just speaking from their worldview. As are we.

Secondly, magical thinking is a notoriously bad way of trying to make sense of the world. Even granting that it offer solace in times of tremendous suffering, perhaps those times of suffering wouldn't happen quite so much if they started taking rational rather than supernatural approaches to life? It is worth considering, anyway.

Finally, I can only speak from personal experience, but non believers learn very young that they live in a world where people take their superstitions very seriously, and it is Very Bad Form to challenge anything to do with faith. The threat of violence by the mob against the "other" is always there, so we learn to let the kids believe in Santa and leave them alone. If you contrast the torrent of religious imagery with the trickle of atheist imagery, you might realize the tremendous difference in power and pressure. However the very ubiquity of religious symbology makes it fade into the background for most believers. Contemporaries didn't notice that Amos and Andy was racist because that's just the way blacks were portrayed. Likewise, believers have very little inkling of what it is to be an atheist and essentially be surrounded by irrational, potentially dangerous, sleep walkers. Trust me: we have no interest in waking you up. :)
 
Re: Religion Thread: That's Me In the Corner...

unofan said:
Please tell me you didn't just argue that "religious people trying to convert others are awesome because they're helpful, but atheists trying to get people to see things their way are just selfish *****s."

Please tell me I misinterpreted your logic.
Click to expand...

That's how I read it too. Because all atheists are selfish, like my buddy who organized the charity hockey tournament that we played last weekend. Or my other buddy who organizes a different charity to help the U of MN's heart disease program. All of us are selfish prigs without any sort of empathy for our common man.
 
Re: Religion Thread: That's Me In the Corner...

St. Clown said:
That's how I read it too. Because all atheists are selfish, like my buddy who organized the charity hockey tournament that we played last weekend. Or my other buddy who organizes a different charity to help the U of MN's heart disease program. All of us are selfish prigs without any sort of empathy for our common man.
Click to expand...

Degree of religiosity is independent of how good or bad a person is. For every person of faith who uses that philosophy to do good there's another who hides behind it to justify evil. Likewise, levelheadedness when it comes to viewing superstition is no guarantee of being a good person.

This makes perfect sense because religiosity (or its lack) is autobiographical, not rational. Star-bellied Sneeches take their stars from their parents or pastors -- they have nothing to do with being an ethical person.
 
Re: Religion Thread: That's Me In the Corner...

unofan said:
Please tell me you didn't just argue that "religious people trying to convert others are awesome because they're helpful, but atheists trying to get people to see things their way are just selfish *****s."

Please tell me I misinterpreted your logic.
Click to expand...

Yes, you did. Faith does bring something to the table for many...atheism needs to do the same (Kep has advanced something on that) if it wants to be a viable path.

Learning is typically good...soul searching is also. Don't you agree?

I would encourage someone to evaluate both faith based and non faith based paths if it can help them (hoping for better outcomes is part of the golden rule). Maybe I'm wrong, but atheists do spend a lot of energy trying to make sure people don't do this type of soul searching.

Don't walk away...tell me if I'm wrong.
 
Re: Religion Thread: That's Me In the Corner...

5mn_Major said:
Maybe I'm wrong, but atheists do spend a lot of energy trying to make sure people don't do this type of soul searching.
Click to expand...

You are wrong. Atheists are probably far more given to that type of self-scrutiny. With religion most believers check the box marked "what is it to be a good person?" pass Go, and collect $200 and eternal life. Without a check box, atheists have to craft and live our own philosophy and in so doing have to continually face foundational questions of good and bad, right and wrong.

Religious people are using an app. Atheists are building an app. Religious people are taught how to be a good person from one perspective. Atheists explore what goodness is.

Now, nothing prevents religious people from thinking outside the box and educating themselves on other perspectives, and teasing out the differences and commonalities. But that is not required to live a good life under their system. It's extra effort which many (most?) are not interested in. Atheists can't get out of it -- we start with a clean sheet and have to write our story ourselves.
 
Re: Religion Thread: That's Me In the Corner...

Kepler said:
One guess would be: truth.

But there are a few things wrong with your question. First off, you greatly overestimate the amount of energy 99% of atheists spend in discouraging people from their faith. We do say things like, "there is no God," but that's simply an empirical observation. Are people of faith "discouraging atheists" with the endless litany of references to supernaturalism in their daily lives? No, they're just speaking from their worldview. As are we.

Secondly, magical thinking is a notoriously bad way of trying to make sense of the world. Even granting that it offer solace in times of tremendous suffering, perhaps those times of suffering wouldn't happen quite so much if they started taking rational rather than supernatural approaches to life? It is worth considering, anyway.

Finally, I can only speak from personal experience, but non believers learn very young that they live in a world where people take their superstitions very seriously, and it is Very Bad Form to challenge anything to do with faith. The threat of violence by the mob against the "other" is always there, so we learn to let the kids believe in Santa and leave them alone. If you contrast the torrent of religious imagery with the trickle of atheist imagery, you might realize the tremendous difference in power and pressure. However the very ubiquity of religious symbology makes it fade into the background for most believers. Contemporaries didn't notice that Amos and Andy was racist because that's just the way blacks were portrayed. Likewise, believers have very little inkling of what it is to be an atheist and essentially be surrounded by irrational, potentially dangerous, sleep walkers. Trust me: we have no interest in waking you up. :)
Click to expand...

Forgive me if I focus on Christianity here for a mn. I don't know if there's anything wrong with the question. So what does a Christian want for others? What does an atheist want for others? Is that the central question? Maybe not for an atheist, but its definitely up there for a Christian.

Let's say best case scenario for atheists, that God doesn't exist...which of course can't be proven either. Based on what you're saying, atheists put realism>positive personal outcomes. There's nothing wrong with that...even with that best case atheist scenario, realism>positive personal outcomes is just a different point of view. Christians who would flip those due to the golden rule.
 
5mn_Major said:
Yes, you did. Faith does bring something to the table for many...atheism needs to do the same (Kep has advanced something on that) if it wants to be a viable path.

Learning is typically good...soul searching is also. Don't you agree?

I would encourage someone to evaluate both faith based and non faith based paths if it can help them (hoping for better outcomes is part of the golden rule). Maybe I'm wrong, but atheists do spend a lot of energy trying to make sure people don't do this type of soul searching.

Don't walk away...tell me if I'm wrong.
Click to expand...

I guess I get confused because you and fishy argue that "evangelical atheists," for lack of a better term, are annoying but don't acknowledge or at least seem to give a pass to missionaries or evangelical religious people who do the exact same thing, just from a religious perspective.

I'm all for encouraging people to evaluate all their options, but I don't see how, logically, religious proselytizing is any better than the atheist alternative. They're both done by annoying busy bodies, in my mind. Just different sides of the same coin.
 
5mn_Major said:
Forgive me if I focus on Christianity here for a mn. I don't know if there's anything wrong with the question. So what does a Christian want for others? What does an atheist want for others? Is that the central question? Maybe not for an atheist, but its definitely up there for a Christian.

Let's say best case scenario for atheists, that God doesn't exist...which of course can't be proven either. Based on what you're saying, atheists put realism>positive personal outcomes. There's nothing wrong with that...even with that best case atheist scenario, realism>positive personal outcomes is just a different point of view. Christians who would flip those due to the golden rule.
Click to expand...

You're mixing apples and giraffes again.

The non-religious don't compare realism to positive personal outcomes.

The comparison is reason (or realism, or empirical thinking) vs. faith.

Positive personal outcomes can be and generally are desired by people of any, all, or no faiths. The difference is in how you get there.
 
Re: Religion Thread: That's Me In the Corner...

Kepler said:
You are wrong. Atheists are probably far more given to that type of self-scrutiny. With religion most believers check the box marked "what is it to be a good person?" pass Go, and collect $200 and eternal life. Without a check box, atheists have to craft and live our own philosophy and in so doing have to continually face foundational questions of good and bad, right and wrong.

Religious people are using an app. Atheists are building an app. Religious people are taught how to be a good person from one perspective. Atheists explore what goodness is.

Now, nothing prevents religious people from thinking outside the box and educating themselves on other perspectives, and teasing out the differences and commonalities. But that is not required to live a good life under their system. It's extra effort which many (most?) are not interested in. Atheists can't get out of it -- we start with a clean sheet and have to write our story ourselves.
Click to expand...

So I hear that we have an app...and atheists are building one on the fly.

So let's talk about this building on the fly. What was so wrong about Jesus teaching? Are you going to say 'nothing, its just great...I just don't believe in a guy sitting in a cloud'? Then why be a vocal atheist...who works against Jesus teaching? The principles are largely the same. People are using the same computer code as you and larger society to make decisions in their own lives. For many Christians, the Word is God (by definition). If one believes in Jesus' teaching are great and doesn't get so hung up on the big guy sitting in the cloud...then your views become so similar to that of many Christians. Then why not encourage exploration of those teachings (the Word) and possible benefits it can provide?
 
Re: Religion Thread: That's Me In the Corner...

unofan said:
You're mixing apples and giraffes again.

The non-religious don't compare realism to positive personal outcomes.

The comparison is reason (or realism, or empirical thinking) vs. faith.

Positive personal outcomes can be and generally are desired by people of any, all, or no faiths. The difference is in how you get there.
Click to expand...

Again, I don't think one can prove faith is not reasonable.

But regardless...good...as you state, a question of reason vs. faith. So by definition, if many situations faith=positive personal outcomes that otherwise wouldn't be. Doesn't it then become 'reason vs. positive personal outcomes'?
 
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