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Religion Thread: That's Me In the Corner...

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Re: Religion Thread: That's Me In the Corner...

I am the very model of a modern ultramontanist
I’ve been congratulated as an excellent dialogist
I have degrees from all the best colleges of theology
I do not know quite what it means but I reject ontology
I understand the finer points both nuanced and theoretical
and when I go on twitter Ross Douthat calls me heretical
I’ve many sage remarks to make on what I call the Christ event
and just how many tragic deaths forbidden condoms could prevent

I much prefer to shun the works of any scholar scholastic
I find the very concept of forgiveness rather elastic
in short, as such an erudite and excellent dialogist
I am the very model of a modern ultramontanist


I’ve listed all the ways the church might deepen its humility
I send my kids to Jesuit factories of gentility
I’ve quoted bits of Newman and I’ve memorized my Bernardin
and when it comes right down to it I couldn’t name a mortal sin

I keep my Rahner library in an embossed ciborium
I purchase all my pinafores at a fair trade emporium
I sing a new church into life with quite a catchy guitar hook
And whistle all the airs from that infernal Haugen hymnal book


Then I can write decrials of a medieval mentality
and open letters calling for civil collegiality
In short as such an erudite and excellent dialogist
I am the very model of a modern ultramontanist


In fact, when I learn what’s meant by “abbot” and “episcopal”
When I have clearly understood why Mass precludes a disco ball
When I distinguish easily dissent from sensus fidei
And when I know the diff’rence twixt a rose window and rosary
When I can sing the Salve like a dutiful Gregorian
When I know all my heresies, Arian and Nestorian
In short when I have exercised my understanding to the full
A better ultramontanist never bestrode a papal bull


For though my theologic bent is bounded by this century
I’m of a temperament so fearless, plucky and adventur-y
You must admit that as an erudite elite dialogist
I am the very model of a modern ultramontanist

-Clare Coffey
First Things 4/20/16
 
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Re: Religion Thread: That's Me In the Corner...

That has me literally laughing out loud. Spectacular.
 
Re: Religion Thread: That's Me In the Corner...

Timothy A said:
placing all belief in the inspired recorded Word of God and not human traditions and human opinions.
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If a guy could just cull the human traditions and opinions from the Inspired recorded Word of God he'd be in business.
 
Re: Religion Thread: That's Me In the Corner...

burd said:
If a guy could just cull the human opinions from the Inspired recorded Word of God he'd be in business.
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2 Peter

1:16 For we did not follow cleverly devised stories when we told you about the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ in power, but we were eyewitnesses of his majesty. 17 He received honor and glory from God the Father when the voice came to him from the Majestic Glory, saying, “This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased.” 18 We ourselves heard this voice that came from heaven when we were with him on the sacred mountain.

19 We also have the prophetic message as something completely reliable, and you will do well to pay attention to it, as to a light shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts. 20 Above all, you must understand that no prophecy of Scripture came about by the prophet’s own interpretation of things. 21 For prophecy never had its origin in the human will, but prophets, though human, spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit.
 
Re: Religion Thread: That's Me In the Corner...

They're gonna be so horked off when they find out that the voice from heaven was really just Bob at the other end of a ventilation shaft.
 
Timothy A said:
2 Peter

1:16 For we did not follow cleverly devised stories when we told you about the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ in power, but we were eyewitnesses of his majesty. 17 He received honor and glory from God the Father when the voice came to him from the Majestic Glory, saying, “This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased.” 18 We ourselves heard this voice that came from heaven when we were with him on the sacred mountain.

19 We also have the prophetic message as something completely reliable, and you will do well to pay attention to it, as to a light shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts. 20 Above all, you must understand that no prophecy of Scripture came about by the prophet’s own interpretation of things. 21 For prophecy never had its origin in the human will, but prophets, though human, spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit.
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No offense, but citing the source to prove the veracity of the source is not exactly going to convert anyone over. I understand you believe the Bible is the literal Word of God, but that's like saying just because someone took an oath to tell the truth on the witness stand, clearly they are telling the truth.

Real life doesn't work that way.
 
Re: Religion Thread: That's Me In the Corner...

unofan said:
No offense, but citing the source to prove the veracity of the source is not exactly going to convert anyone over. I understand you believe the Bible is the literal Word of God, but that's like saying just because someone took an oath to tell the truth on the witness stand, clearly they are telling the truth.

Real life doesn't work that way.
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What is "real" life? No matter your methodology or your metaphysics, you're going to have some stuff that's outside its scope. How are you gonna deal with that?

A belief is not a reason. That is, in fact, the whole point of a belief system. There are certain things which are inherently non-reasonable. At that point, beliefs take over. My belief, for example, is that things which are non-reasonable quite literally have no reason nor purpose nor explanation. They're the way they are because that's the way the cookie crumbled in this dimension of this brane of this universe on this particular Monday. Is it a miracle that I just generated 5842304359? Nope -- there is no reason, it was all chance. There are some things that aren't chance, the length and char set which I input (the laws of physics and causality), but the sequence itself is non-reasonable. If 5842304359 happens to be self-aware, like you or me, it's probably not going to be happy with that answer and insist that being here means something thunk us up and put us here. That essence precedes existence.

Get used to disappointment. Existence precede essence. Essence is a cover story we make up afterwards to get some closure so we can stop worrying and feed the chickens. Early post-monkey proto-people who didn't use that circuit breaker got so wrapped up contemplating the zen of non-reason they didn't see the tiger wait, tiger? TIGER?! WHERE?!! RIGHT BEHI--
 
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Kepler said:
What is "real" life? No matter your methodology or your metaphysics, you're going to have some stuff that's outside its scope. How are you gonna deal with that?

A belief is not a reason. That is, in fact, the whole point of a belief system. There are certain things which are inherently non-reasonable. At that point, beliefs take over. My belief, for example, is that things which are non-reasonable quite literally have no reason nor purpose nor explanation. They're the way they are because that's the way the cookie crumbled in this dimension of this brane of this universe on this particular Monday. Is it a miracle that I just generated 5842304359? Nope -- there is no reason, it was all chance. There are some things that aren't chance, the length and char set which I input (the laws of physics and causality), but the sequence itself is non-reasonable. If 5842304359 happens to be self-aware, like you or me, it's probably not going to be happy with that answer and insist that being here means something thunk us up and put us here. That essence precedes existence.

Get used to disappointment. Existence precede essence. Essence is a cover story we make up afterwards to get some closure so we can stop worrying and feed the chickens. Early post-monkey proto-people who didn't use that circuit breaker got so wrapped up contemplating the zen of non-reason they didn't see the tiger wait, tiger? TIGER?! WHERE?!! RIGHT BEHI--
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Oh please. :rolleyes:

You know exactly what I meant, and you don't need to go philosophical to understand the basic point that you can't cite the source as proof that the source is correct.

Frankly, I don't get why that line from the Bible is even there. If you have Faith, you're going to believe anyway. If you don't, that line isn't going to sway anyone.
 
Re: Religion Thread: That's Me In the Corner...

unofan said:
Oh please. :rolleyes:

You know exactly what I meant, and you don't need to go philosophical to understand the basic point that you can't cite the source as proof that the source is correct.

Frankly, I don't get why that line from the Bible is even there. If you have Faith, you're going to believe anyway. If you don't, that line isn't going to sway anyone.
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I wasn't lawyering the point, I was making it. It took me a long time to understand how people of faith are thinking when they use scripture to justify scripture. From their POV they are not being illogical, they're just not playing our reindeer games any more. They don't have to test the statement's truth because the statement is the truth table.

Frankly I would rather they justify their faith by terminating it back into their faith because all the abuses of logic they have committed trying to justify the supernatural without appealing to the supernatural have been a lot worse. Even Thomas lost patience with them (before doing almost as bad a job of his own).

The line's there because it's an enabling clause, and it also stakes out the territory for that scripture. How do you know the Bible's right? Cuz the Bible says so. But other holy books say they're right, how do you know they're wrong? Cuz they're not in the Bible. But how do you know that distinction's the test? One guess.

If I think I'm in love then I am in love. It's a category error to say that's circular logic -- rather, it's definitional. God is the love that claims itself to be universal. Self-reference isn't the problem; scope is.
 
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Re: Religion Thread: That's Me In the Corner...

joecct said:
Sage words from Msgr Pope

http://blog.adw.org/2011/10/five-hard-truths-that-will-set-you-free-2/
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I think those are among the five most important realizations about life. Though none of his points require the God hypothesis.

Much of the misreading of atheists by people of faith is they assume that without faith one or more of those axioms falls. We might understand one another better if we accepted that whatever story we've come up with the explain things, naturalistic or supernaturalistic, we are at heart all dealing with the same set of issues. Much like Democrats and Republicans, the metaphysics is just an accident of birth and influences -- our hardware and software all encounter the same intractable conditions.

I would alter them slightly:

1. Life is hard.
2. Your life is not primarily about you.
3. Nobody is in control.
4. Nothing is that important.
5. You are going to die.
 
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Re: Religion Thread: That's Me In the Corner...

unofan said:
No offense, but citing the source to prove the veracity of the source is not exactly going to convert anyone over.
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I just site the source in case anyone is compelled to look deeper into the context. Plus I was a history major in college, I'm used to siting my sources. I highly doubt I will convert anyone in this site (holding out hope for Kelper ;)), it's more of an exercise to push me deeper into my Faith.
 
Re: Religion Thread: That's Me In the Corner...

unofan said:
Frankly, I don't get why that line from the Bible is even there. If you have Faith, you're going to believe anyway. If you don't, that line isn't going to sway anyone.
Click to expand...

What line are you referring to?
 
Re: Religion Thread: That's Me In the Corner...

Timothy A said:
What line are you referring to?
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He's talking about the guy yelling down from the ceiling vents telling those people that God is real and that bearded guy in the corner is His child born of non-consensual sex.
 
Re: Religion Thread: That's Me In the Corner...

Timothy A said:
I just site the source in case anyone is compelled to look deeper into the context. Plus I was a history major in college, I'm used to siting my sources. I highly doubt I will convert anyone in this site (holding out hope for Kelper ;)), it's more of an exercise to push me deeper into my Faith.
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I'll give the Bible this: you can't understand anything in western literature or art from 400-1900 without knowing your Bible stories. I wish I was at least minimally competent at Biblical literacy.

I took this Bible Test and got only 61%: http://www.quizrocket.com/online-bible-quiz
 
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Re: Religion Thread: That's Me In the Corner...

joecct said:
Fiat voluntas tua.

She consented.
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Yup.

Then said Mary unto the angel, How shall this be, seeing I know not a man?

And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.

And, behold, thy cousin Elisabeth, she hath also conceived a son in her old age: and this is the sixth month with her, who was called barren.

For with God nothing shall be impossible.

And Mary said, Behold the handmaid of the Lord; be it unto me according to thy word. And the angel departed from her.
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