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Religion Thread: ...and suddenly, everyone's a theology scholar

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Re: Religion Thread: ...and suddenly, everyone's a theology scholar

Kepler said:
Thank you for the answer, I found it clear and I believe I understand you.

I read it as you saying you refuse to make any moral judgments on the candidate. May I ask then how you do choose a candidate? Do you consider the moral consequences of policy or is that also something where you defer to God?

A reservation: if you can never judge a candidate how do you know if they're honest and without an assumption of honesty how do you know you'll get the policy outcomes you are aiming for?
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They all are liars and cheats to varying degrees. Whoda thunk harmless and funny and apparently a good legislator Al Franken would be a micro Trump?

Consequences of moral policy....In the end I don't really want the Government dictating a lot in the world of moral policy to me, I get that from God. I don't like abortion, but it is legal, and legality of it doesn't effect my beliefs or how I live my life, so while I am against it, that may not be a factor in who I vote for (I voted for Kerry for instance). Having an abortion is a personal choice (as is getting pregnant when you don't want to be 95% of the time) between you and God (if you are a believer). If a believer has an abortion and at some point truly repent, the sin is forgiven. Only God knows in your heart how you really feel.

I vote based on who I think will keep my sons from getting drafted into a needless war (I am essentially an isolationist, voted for Kerry), who will lower my taxes, push governmental control down from Washington to the State/local level, stop big business from running the country, lower defense spending and ensure all can live the lifestyle they want without fear. Abortion and capitol punishment aren't in the top 10.

I have no idea if candidate will actually fulfill their campaign promises....they all expound on their virtues of trust and loyalty. If they don't I will not vote for them again, that's all I can do.
 
Re: Religion Thread: ...and suddenly, everyone's a theology scholar

joecct said:
Venial Sin v Mortal Sin. One does not get you on the down elevator. An unconfessed Mortal Sin is an express elevator to Hell.

However, we all face the Individual (Particular) Judgment at the moment of death. There we stand naked before Christ and our life is laid bare. Those who are deemed worthy are advanced to Heaven/Purgatory. The truly evil are sent to Hell.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Particular_judgment
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The Bible says nothing about types of sins and Purgatory, that is why I left Catholicism, among other reasons. Here's what the WELS says about sin:

Since God created us to love him perfectly, and to love our neighbor as himself, any failure to love in heart, word, or action is the equivalent of shattering the whole law of God. James tells us that in the second chapter of his epistle, “For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it” (2:10). Every one of my sins is lawless rebellion against the God who created me to be a perfect reflection of his love in this world. Every failure to live in love is a ****able rejection of his purpose for our lives. In that sense all sin is equally evil. It is all equal evidence that we have a nature within us that is exactly the opposite of what God created us to be.

But for the believer in Christ, there’s more to the story. Because we stand forgiven and holy in God’s sight through the perfect life, death, and resurrection of his Son, every sin does not instantly make an unbeliever out of us. As we live in repentance that runs each day from the evil of our sin to the cross of our Savior, we find that “the blood of Jesus Christ, his Son, purifies us from all sin” (1 John 1:7). Through faith in Christ we stand in God’s grace (Romans 5:1-2).
 
Re: Religion Thread: ...and suddenly, everyone's a theology scholar

Timothy A said:
They all are liars and cheats to varying degrees. Whoda thunk harmless and funny and apparently a good legislator Al Franken would be a micro Trump?

Consequences of moral policy....In the end I don't really want the Government dictating a lot in the world of moral policy to me, I get that from God. I don't like abortion, but it is legal, and legality of it doesn't effect my beliefs or how I live my life, so while I am against it, that may not be a factor in who I vote for (I voted for Kerry for instance). Having an abortion is a personal choice (as is getting pregnant when you don't want to be 95% of the time) between you and God (if you are a believer). If a believer has an abortion and at some point truly repent, the sin is forgiven. Only God knows in your heart how you really feel.

I vote based on who I think will keep my sons from getting drafted into a needless war (I am essentially an isolationist, voted for Kerry), who will lower my taxes, push governmental control down from Washington to the State/local level, stop big business from running the country, lower defense spending and ensure all can live the lifestyle they want without fear. Abortion and capitol punishment aren't in the top 10.

I have no idea if candidate will actually fulfill their campaign promises....they all expound on their virtues of trust and loyalty. If they don't I will not vote for them again, that's all I can do.
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I think a lot of people will stop at the microtrump comment, but that all seems fairly reasonable. Might not agree with all of it, but it’s reasonable.

Whether or not Trump was the correct choice based on your comments is another thing.
 
Re: Religion Thread: ...and suddenly, everyone's a theology scholar

Timothy A said:
Consequences of moral policy....In the end I don't really want the Government dictating a lot in the world of moral policy to me, I get that from God.
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That's not what I mean. All policy has moral consequences. Kicking people off health insurance means children will die. Restricting or not renewing CHIP means children will be malnourished. Changing the tax code to increase inequality will mean millions of children never having the chance to flourish.

These are real world outcomes that come out of policy choices. If the government doesn't correct the inequalities caused by a capitalist economy then you are making a moral choice to leave people behind. And I think it's a fairly universal religious tenet to help the weak against the strong.
 
Re: Religion Thread: ...and suddenly, everyone's a theology scholar

Kepler said:
That's not what I mean. All policy has moral consequences. Kicking people off health insurance means children will die. Restricting or not renewing CHIP means children will be malnourished. Changing the tax code to increase inequality will mean millions of children never having the chance to flourish.

These are real world outcomes that come out of policy choices. If the government doesn't correct the inequalities caused by a capitalist economy then you are making a moral choice to leave people behind. And I think it's a fairly universal religious tenet to help the weak against the strong.
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No form of government has ever not left people behind economically. The question is what form of government minimizes the problem. Communism is supposed to be that ideal solution for leaving no one behind, but it's never worked because humans are flawed. Capitalism has a good chance to fix the problem by taxing the crap out of the rich, which I am on favor of, to give to the poor through social services, but then giving to the poor long term can de-motivate them to try and improve their situation on their own and the rich want to preserve their wealth. Christianity is a great vehicle to help close the gap because yes if we follow the tenant of love our neighbor as ourselves we'd be sharing everything with everyone in a selfless Christian utopia. I do believe by far that Communism (looked at in terms of economics only) executed perfectly is the ideal solution. But again the human condition is flawed, dominated by ego, too selfish and not selfless enough to make any of these ideas work.
 
Been thinking about something. Certain Christians are setting themselves up as bastions of morality and paragons of virtue.

Doesn't the Bible say a few things about that?

"Our righteousness is as filthy rags..."

"All have sinned and fallen short..."

"Take the log out of your own eye before removing the speck..."
 
Re: Religion Thread: ...and suddenly, everyone's a theology scholar

Is any crime unpardonable?

Bernard Cardinal Law has died at 86. The folks around Boston are consigning him to the Pit.

As a shepherd charged with protecting his flock, he let the wolves amongst the sheep and failed his duty.

He has faced his Particular Judgment before Christ. An unrepentant person will face the ire of The Almighty.

However any sinner can be saved. I hope that the Cardinal sometime in the past decade or so realized the magnitude of his and his staff's sins and begged forgiveness before a confessor and God.

Perhaps there will be much time in Purgatory where he will meet the souls of the abused. Eventually, though, his sins will be purged and he will enter the Kingdom.
 
Re: Religion Thread: ...and suddenly, everyone's a theology scholar

joecct said:
He has faced his Particular Judgment before Christ. An unrepentant person will face the ire of The Almighty.

However any sinner can be saved. I hope that the Cardinal sometime in the past decade or so realized the magnitude of his and his staff's sins and begged forgiveness before a confessor and God.

Perhaps there will be much time in Purgatory where he will meet the souls of the abused. Eventually, though, his sins will be purged and he will enter the Kingdom.
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That, or he is just dead.
 
Re: Religion Thread: ...and suddenly, everyone's a theology scholar

Timothy A said:
leswp1 said:
Timothy A said:
Everyone is a sinner. Some sins are very public and some are private, but all sin is equal in God's eyes. God does forgive our sins with the caveat of repentance (of course the caveat to forgiveness is faith). Repentance means trying your level best to alter your behavior not do that sin again. Sometimes that is easy, sometimes that is very hard. If Trump is still doing the same things he did 40 years ago, is he repentant? Probably not, but we cannot judge a person's repentance from what we outwardly see. Repentance is an inward battle that sometimes the positive result is public. We should love and support each other with the battle against our public flaws and pray to help each other beat the private flaws. I think a perception that is all too common is that Christians are so pure and perfect and that ****es people off. Nothing can be further from the truth. A true Christian examines themselves, knows they are very flawed, and use's God's grace and forgives through Jesus Christ, repents and humbly serves others as a way of thanking God. So look at us as a flawed humans who is trying their best to not keep stumbling on those same rocks every day. Sometimes I succeed, sometimes I fail, but I'm never going to stop fighting it. Thanks for the question (that I'm not sure I totally answered) and the opportunity to express my Faith.
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Have been too busy to reply til now. Thanks for the answer. I get that people are forgiven if they repent. I believe that too. God is abounding in steadfast love. He can forgive anything if there is repentance. But, as a human being, not being God, I don't think I am required to tolerate behaviour that is reprehensible and repeated. I can believe in forgiveness but that doesn't mean I should put myself in the path of having it done to me again. Example- a guy beats his wife. He is repentant. All is good with God. His wife forgives him. He does this repetitively. She can forgive him but that doesn't mean she should return herself to danger because God or she has forgiven him. To do so is not taking care of the body God gave her. I look at repeat offenders such as tRump the same way. He has repeatedly shown he is willing to lie openly (and brag about it), be unscrupulous, vindictive, prey on women and anyone weaker than he is. He may be repentant (by definition a sociopath does not feel the need for repentance but that is another discussion) but why would one put him in a place he can do further harm no matter how much he says he repents?

So- maybe I missed it but how do you reconcile his many faults and willingness to brag about them and repeat them without saying he repents- with your faith? I am pretty sure he has repeatedly said he can do what he wants and hasn't said he repents. Early on the song was he did but I dn't think I ever heard he actually uttered those words. I think the Fundie Right put those words in his mouth by saying he did.

Timothy A said:
They all are liars and cheats to varying degrees. Whoda thunk harmless and funny and apparently a good legislator Al Franken would be a micro Trump?

Consequences of moral policy....In the end I don't really want the Government dictating a lot in the world of moral policy to me, I get that from God. I don't like abortion, but it is legal, and legality of it doesn't effect my beliefs or how I live my life, so while I am against it, that may not be a factor in who I vote for (I voted for Kerry for instance). Having an abortion is a personal choice (as is getting pregnant when you don't want to be 95% of the time) between you and God (if you are a believer). If a believer has an abortion and at some point truly repent, the sin is forgiven. Only God knows in your heart how you really feel.

I vote based on who I think will keep my sons from getting drafted into a needless war (I am essentially an isolationist, voted for Kerry), who will lower my taxes, push governmental control down from Washington to the State/local level, stop big business from running the country, lower defense spending and ensure all can live the lifestyle they want without fear. Abortion and capitol punishment aren't in the top 10.

I have no idea if candidate will actually fulfill their campaign promises....they all expound on their virtues of trust and loyalty. If they don't I will not vote for them again, that's all I can do.
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Missed the mark on this one. TO avoid war one must have the skill of diplomacy. I don't see this at all. I have a son as well. I never, ever, thought of him in those terms until tRump was elected. Now I think of that a lot. I would be the first to tell my son to leave the country rather than answer a draft from the sociopath. THe Prez doesn't heed the military who try to advise him and surrounds himself with a Cabinet including those who are not respected in the military. This includes those who have served and reached high rank. If you ask around the people he tagged have been labeled as loose cannons.
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Re: Religion Thread: ...and suddenly, everyone's a theology scholar

That's why my mom voted for Bush in 2004 - because he said we'd have an "all-volunteer" military, and Kerry wouldn't say that. :rolleyes:

If there's a Purgatory, then that's where Cardinal Law will be spending the next several centuries having his soul cleansed.

Like burd, I'm betting he's just dead though.
 
Kepler said:
Sanders would have won. He was just as anti-establishment as Dump and he didn't have any of Hillary's baggage.

As for "rigged," it depends what you mean. The nomination was certainly tilted but it's not clear to me that Sanders would have won if it was completely unbiased. It's just too hard to say. A huge number of Democratic voters could see nothing but FIRST WOMAN PRESIDENT and they were going to carry that banner come hell or high water. Also, a large number of Democrats have lived their whole lives under the Identity Regime and don't have the stomach or even the desire for a real fight for economic justice. While this may not have been the intention of the 1% it has certainly been a blessing for them.
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Sadly, we’ll have a woman president before we have a Jew.
 
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