Religion Thread: ...and suddenly, everyone's a theology scholar

[alfablue]

Re: Religion Thread: ...and suddenly, everyone's a theology scholar

You got a load of garbage. Its terrible that it came from Christians. I know everything you've said about yourself and I for one am totally supportive across the board.

Nobody holds the moral high ground. Nobody. And you may not believe this...but the Gospel Word itself is pretty high ground. Not individuals.

Here's the interesting thing to this post....

In one post, you try to point out that Christians are individuals, and that you are not part of the bad ones. But since these individuals condemn other people in the name of Christianity, you then take offense when people don't like being condemned like that, since it's "anti-christian".

That is the key problem.

There's SO VERY MUCH hypocritical crap that comes out of Christians, it's mind boggling. Love thy Neighbor, unless they are the wrong people. Blessed are the poor, unless they have no money, then they are on their own. I can go on, but those two things REALLY confuse people. And just because YOU don't practice that does not mean others don't as well. And they claim Christianity as their reason. Don't pretend to be offended when your fellow Christian betray your morals and are then called out for it. It's not calling out Christianity, specifically, it's calling out those who take advantage of calling themselves Christian, who are clearly not.

It's also funny that you have some atheist friends, only "some" of which are cool. Do you have the others as friends just so that you say that you have atheist friends??? Sort of like the token minority you know?

Caring for people is a human nature. Most people have it, some do not. No specific religion has a monopoly on that what so ever. Which very much says that it's NOT a religious based thing- it just is. Caring is the source of what we call moral grounds. There were Muslims out at the memorial in New York yesterday to show they care. Standing along side a plurality of other religions doing the same thing (good illustration of what New York is all about). You don't need God to care. And when people use God to demonstrate that they don't care, or that they hate- what does that really mean?

I'd like to think I'm Christian. But as time goes on, and I see as much bad as there is good in the name of Jesus Christ, it very much makes me question that.

 

[Kepler]

Re: Religion Thread: ...and suddenly, everyone's a theology scholar

tl; dr for 5mn:

<img src="https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DBcRF0eUAAMtW_X.jpg" height="500"></img>

 

[5mn_Major]

Re: Religion Thread: ...and suddenly, everyone's a theology scholar

Here's the interesting thing to this post....

In one post, you try to point out that Christians are individuals, and that you are not part of the bad ones. But since these individuals condemn other people in the name of Christianity, you then take offense when people don't like being condemned like that, since it's "anti-christian".

That is the key problem.

There's SO VERY MUCH hypocritical crap that comes out of Christians, it's mind boggling. Love thy Neighbor, unless they are the wrong people. Blessed are the poor, unless they have no money, then they are on their own. I can go on, but those two things REALLY confuse people. And just because YOU don't practice that does not mean others don't as well. And they claim Christianity as their reason.

I get it and have repeatedly agreed.

Don't pretend to be offended when your fellow Christian betray your morals and are then called out for it. It's not calling out Christianity, specifically, it's calling out those who take advantage of calling themselves Christian, who are clearly not.

You misjudge why I take offense.

Its not because Christians are being called out. I was in agreement with the first 100 anti Christian posts as they called out bad Christians. But its just daily faith bashing with that being the end goal and it doesn't slow. So there's no thread here. Just anti faith rhetoric. I'm offended because the goal is to shut down a fairly important thread...and its working.

You don't need God to care.

As I've said many times...you don't need God to care. But participating in the right activities helps.

Say you and your friends play volleyball every other week...you can be pretty good. Now say you practice every day...do you think you'd be better? I think so.

Let's test that theory. Read a Gospel passage every day for a month...and let's see if your perspective changes at all. I would bet serious money that it does.

 

[5mn_Major]

Re: Religion Thread: ...and suddenly, everyone's a theology scholar

Except the atheist card is your response to thoughtful posts that you can't refute.

Show me a post.

 

[MissThundercat]

I get it and have repeatedly agreed.



You misjudge why I take offense.

Its not because Christians are being called out. I was in agreement with the first 100 anti Christian posts as they called out bad Christians. But its just daily faith bashing with that being the end goal and it doesn't slow. So there's no thread here. Just anti faith rhetoric. I'm offended because the goal is to shut down a fairly important thread...and its working.



As I've said many times...you don't need God to care. But participating in the right activities helps.

Say you and your friends play volleyball every other week...you can be pretty good. Now say you practice every day...do you think you'd be better? I think so.

Let's test that theory. Read a Gospel passage every day for a month...and let's see if your perspective changes at all. I would bet serious money that it does.

I volunteer with cat rescue, LGBT centers, Leukemia and Lymphoma Society. I'm opening my apartment on Thanksgiving for those that don't have a place to go.

But that doesn't matter because I don't believe in any deity. Got it.

 

[alfablue]

Re: Religion Thread: ...and suddenly, everyone's a theology scholar

You misjudge why I take offense.

Its not because Christians are being called out. I was in agreement with the first 100 anti Christian posts as they called out bad Christians. But its just daily faith bashing with that being the end goal and it doesn't slow. So there's no thread here. Just anti faith rhetoric. I'm offended because the goal is to shut down a fairly important thread...and its working.

Again, when you see the faith abused OVER AND OVER AND OVER again, it makes it really easy to bash the faith. It's become far more common in public discourse that you see people attempt to hate based on faith. That happens all the freaking time. And you get offended by the fact that people who question faith because of that- it's bad?

It's entirely why I've completely turned my back on the church.

As I've said many times...you don't need God to care. But participating in the right activities helps.

Say you and your friends play volleyball every other week...you can be pretty good. Now say you practice every day...do you think you'd be better? I think so.

Let's test that theory. Read a Gospel passage every day for a month...and let's see if your perspective changes at all. I would bet serious money that it does.

Again, caring is a human nature. If you need a God to practice that, I question your ability to care. All it means is that you worry about your perception in the eyes of god, so you need to do more "good".

A far better test is for YOU to not read the gospel for a few months, and see if you care less than you do with it. If you do care less, that's a problem, and if you don't- it proves my point.

As a follow up- which bible should I read? Christian, Hindu, Buddhist, Muslim, etc? Or are you actually claiming that Christianity is the most caring religion? History pretty much debunks that.

 

[5mn_Major]

Re: Religion Thread: ...and suddenly, everyone's a theology scholar

Again, when you see the faith abused OVER AND OVER AND OVER again, it makes it really easy to bash the faith. It's become far more common in public discourse that you see people attempt to hate based on faith. That happens all the freaking time. And you get offended by the fact that people who question faith because of that- it's bad?

It's entirely why I've completely turned my back on the church.

And yes, I've heard and agreed that there are bad Christians before (probably two posts down). Running those practicing religion off a thread on religious discussion will probably limit the other points of view you might hear.

I would add one more thing...for you, why do you care what others think or say? Moral codes are personal...and has nothing to do with others.

Not addressing you but, I don't have time to be a punching bag for 10 angry people who have met bad Christians. If that makes people upset, then so be it. In the end, I am happy discussing religious topics per the thread title if your questions are sincere.

 

[leswp1]

Re: Religion Thread: ...and suddenly, everyone's a theology scholar

Here's the interesting thing to this post....

In one post, you try to point out that Christians are individuals, and that you are not part of the bad ones. But since these individuals condemn other people in the name of Christianity, you then take offense when people don't like being condemned like that, since it's "anti-christian".

That is the key problem.

There's SO VERY MUCH hypocritical crap that comes out of Christians, it's mind boggling. Love thy Neighbor, unless they are the wrong people. Blessed are the poor, unless they have no money, then they are on their own. I can go on, but those two things REALLY confuse people. And just because YOU don't practice that does not mean others don't as well. And they claim Christianity as their reason. Don't pretend to be offended when your fellow Christian betray your morals and are then called out for it. It's not calling out Christianity, specifically, it's calling out those who take advantage of calling themselves Christian, who are clearly not.

It's also funny that you have some atheist friends, only "some" of which are cool. Do you have the others as friends just so that you say that you have atheist friends??? Sort of like the token minority you know?

Caring for people is a human nature. Most people have it, some do not. No specific religion has a monopoly on that what so ever. Which very much says that it's NOT a religious based thing- it just is. Caring is the source of what we call moral grounds. There were Muslims out at the memorial in New York yesterday to show they care. Standing along side a plurality of other religions doing the same thing (good illustration of what New York is all about). You don't need God to care. And when people use God to demonstrate that they don't care, or that they hate- what does that really mean?

I'd like to think I'm Christian. But as time goes on, and I see as much bad as there is good in the name of Jesus Christ, it very much makes me question that.

Well if you see things like the above post saying calling people on poor behaviour is bashing then I can see why. If 1 or 10 or a million people do something heinous in the name of Jesus then that many times people should be calling them on it. Just because many people are misguided doesn't mean that is the identity of Christianity. It means they are trying to claim something they don't understand or adhere to. Not epeaking up to call them on it would mean tacit acceptance. Not OK.

There are some really warped views of Christianity that promote none of what Jesus taught. Jesus spent most of Matthew saying the point is not the minutia of the Law but the spirit of it. No amount of talking, confronting or suggesting people revisit the Bible is going to change the mind of someone who feels righteous in condemning people or judging them. It makes them feel better and if there are enough of them it can start to make you wonder what you are missing. IMHO they are missing the point. Jesus didn't spend the whole of the New Testament condemning people and saying they were not redeemable. He ate with and hung out with people who the rest of society didn't like, shunned, were not of the faith. He did not hang out with those who were self righteous and tried to tell everyone what what 'right'. He lectured them. I have this thing in my head where I imagine what Jesus would have to say to people who condemned those who didn't believe or didn't believe the 'correct way'. Looking at what he did in the Bible I think there would be more than a few people who would need to rethink. I can't control what others decide Jesus would think is right. I can control what I do and how I act.

 

[wolverineTrumpet]

Re: Religion Thread: ...and suddenly, everyone's a theology scholar

And yes, I've heard and agreed that there are bad Christians before (probably two posts down). Running those practicing religion off a thread on religious discussion will probably limit the other points of view you might hear.

I would add one more thing...for you, why do you care what others think or say? Moral codes are personal...and has nothing to do with others.

Not addressing you but, I don't have time to be a punching bag for 10 angry people who have met bad Christians. If that makes people upset, then so be it. In the end, I am happy discussing religious topics per the thread title if your questions are sincere.

I enjoy this thread and all the perspectives that are brought to it. I hope others don't deter you from posting.

I can understand some of the vitriol spewed toward the "holier than thou" religious set. I had a Catholic boyfriend once ask me how I could have morals without religion to guide me. It's that thinking from someone who knew me well, that is frustrating from the non-religious side of the spectrum. Having people assume we have no moral code is aggravating. The golden rule seems pretty universal. If one can have empathy, it makes for a good moral guideline. Logic, reason and the ability/desire to consider how your actions will effect the future and others is really all you need.
I sometimes wonder how one can make moral decisions if all their morality stems from rules laid out in a centuries old book. Does the Bible have guidelines for how to use social media?

 

[Kepler]

Re: Religion Thread: ...and suddenly, everyone's a theology scholar

I can understand some of the vitriol spewed toward the "holier than thou" religious set. I had a Catholic boyfriend once ask me how I could have morals without religion to guide me.

I wouldn't be annoyed by a theist asking that (unless they were shouting and thumping their magic book). It's a vibrant argument in ethics that has been going on for 2500 years in the west, and I can imagine a theist being honestly perplexed and wanting to know.

Since a large part of theist indoctrination is pounding it in that there can be no morality without God, it would be a little odd to have a believer acquaintance who wasn't curious about sources of morality and ethics outside of magic. One of the typical ways that people brought up religious break the spell is when they realize in their teens that religion doesn't correlate at all with morality in the real world. At that point most people (IMO) overreact and throw all of religion away. (Except maybe the Episcopaleans and Anglicans, who use religion as a kind of Chamber of Commerce lodge and don't bother with the moral implications at all.)

Anyway, discussing what ethics and morality really are, both in the prism of God and without that assumption, is fascinating. Kierkegaard's Fear and Trembling is a beautiful (deeply problematic) read on it.

 

[joecct]

I wouldn't be annoyed by a theist asking that (unless they were shouting and thumping their magic book). It's a vibrant argument in ethics that has been going on for 2500 years in the west, and I can imagine a theist being honestly perplexed and wanting to know.

Since a large part of theist indoctrination is pounding it in that there can be no morality without God, it would be a little odd to have a believer acquaintance who wasn't curious about sources of morality and ethics outside of magic. One of the typical ways that people brought up religious break the spell is when they realize in their teens that religion doesn't correlate at all with morality in the real world. At that point most people (IMO) overreact and throw all of religion away. (Except maybe the Episcopaleans and Anglicans, who use religion as a kind of Chamber of Commerce lodge and don't bother with the moral implications at all.)

Anyway, discussing what ethics and morality really are, both in the prism of God and without that assumption, is fascinating. Kierkegaard's Fear and Trembling is a beautiful (deeply problematic) read on it.

The Powers That Be would disagree. The feeling is that without an afterlife what incentive is there to do good? Does the morality become "what I can get away with and not get caught" because there is no fear of divine retribution??

 

[Kepler]

Re: Religion Thread: ...and suddenly, everyone's a theology scholar

The Powers That Be would disagree. The feeling is that without an afterlife what incentive is there to do good? Does the morality become "what I can get away with and not get caught" because there is no fear of divine retribution??

It sounds very much like it's the morality based on divine retribution that comes down to "what can I get away with"?

This is like Pascal's Wager. If the basis of your belief and/or your behavior is fear, that's the opposite of ethics.

But there's a simple empirical refutation: here we have a world with a billion or more people who don't believe in gods and they have the same normal distribution of good and bad behavior as theists. Clearly, there are other inspirations for morality than fear of punishment.

But if it's fear of god keeping you from murder and rape, please keep believing in god.

 

[ScoobyDoo]

Re: Religion Thread: ...and suddenly, everyone's a theology scholar

The Powers That Be would disagree. The feeling is that without an afterlife what incentive is there to do good? Does the morality become "what I can get away with and not get caught" because there is no fear of divine retribution??

How does that explain Evangelicals voting for Trump? I'll hang up and listen.

 

[5mn_Major]

Re: Religion Thread: ...and suddenly, everyone's a theology scholar

I enjoy this thread and all the perspectives that are brought to it. I hope others don't deter you from posting.

I can understand some of the vitriol spewed toward the "holier than thou" religious set. I had a Catholic boyfriend once ask me how I could have morals without religion to guide me. It's that thinking from someone who knew me well, that is frustrating from the non-religious side of the spectrum. Having people assume we have no moral code is aggravating. The golden rule seems pretty universal. If one can have empathy, it makes for a good moral guideline. Logic, reason and the ability/desire to consider how your actions will effect the future and others is really all you need.
I sometimes wonder how one can make moral decisions if all their morality stems from rules laid out in a centuries old book. Does the Bible have guidelines for how to use social media?

Thank you and I enjoy having others getting involved in discussion.

I get everything you say. I believe you'll find that the rigid kind of thinking like your boyfriend had was not consistent with the teachings of Jesus. For the purposes of himself, the Bible was written for him to better behave. The lessons of the Bible are first and foremost personal. Regarding his treatment of you, there's supposed to pretty much be love and in that context, to make you happy...and definitely not to 'throw stones'.

The golden rule is baked into society as a standard for how things should be - much of this has been a slow infusion from the day the Bible showed up in people's homes. So what about the Bible, us and today (i.e., your question about a centuries old book)?

So I'm a pretty educated guy. I have a masters and consult on strategy with executives in F500 companies. I'm saying this to show that I'm still learning and that this self awareness/morality is not simplistic stuff. We all kind of know things in many topics just from living in society. But one goes to school or trains on a sports team to get better. Even though they may believe they do, many people don't have a well developed sense of themselves or themselves as a good person. Doing some extra training/learning/thinking as with anything else helps. You don't even have to believe in God to do this stuff...just read or listen in the background. It is actually very interesting stuff.

Here's one example of Gospel type content. Its by Greg Boyd, rated one of the top 20 influential theologians alive. I don't go to his church now...but there's stuff here that aligns with what I mean. Edit: If you watch, make sure you watch one with Greg himself.

https://whchurch.org/sermon/

 

[Kepler]

Re: Religion Thread: ...and suddenly, everyone's a theology scholar

joe frequently bemoans the direction of Francis and the progressive (?) Western European religion.

Well, happily there is still a place where hardcore religion is still practiced. Africa.

 

[joecct]

How does that explain Evangelicals voting for Trump? I'll hang up and listen.

I have no idea. Why don't you call Joel Osteen and ask?

 

[joecct]

joe frequently bemoans the direction of Francis and the progressive (?) Western European religion.

Well, happily there is still a place where hardcore religion is still practiced. Africa.

Bulwarks against the extremes from Lambeth and the Vatican.

 

[Kepler]

Re: Religion Thread: ...and suddenly, everyone's a theology scholar

Lambeth

"Home to the International Maritime Organization"?

I am missing something, or the IMO is a major religious player on the d/l.

Or that was one helluva Lovecraft reference.

<img src="https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/2/23/Shadows_Over_Innsmouth_%281994_anthology_-_cover%29.jpg"></img>

 

[joecct]

"Home to the International Maritime Organization"?

I am missing something, or the IMO is a major religious player on the d/l.

Or that was one helluva Lovecraft reference.

Lambeth palace. Home of the Archbishop of Canterbury who probably consumes 1 large aspirin bottle a day dealing with the headaches in the Anglican Communion.

 

[Kepler]

Re: Religion Thread: ...and suddenly, everyone's a theology scholar

Wait, the home of the Archbishop of Canterbury isn't in... you see where I'm going with this, right?