Religion Thread: ...and suddenly, everyone's a theology scholar

[MissThundercat]

Re: Religion Thread: ...and suddenly, everyone's a theology scholar

Duh. I bet the Pope doesn’t think the entire earth flooded and every animal that survived was on a single boat. And I’m sure he doesn’t think the earth was created in 6 days.

There was that preist Bill Maher interviewed at the Vatican that basically said the idea of hell was outdated and stupid

I agree with Sartre. Hell is other people.

 

[Kepler]

Re: Religion Thread: ...and suddenly, everyone's a theology scholar

I agree with Sartre. Hell is other people.

One of the funniest lines from the Onion.

"Sartre: Hell is other Frenchmen."

 

[burd]

Re: Religion Thread: ...and suddenly, everyone's a theology scholar

The Pope today reportedly said Hell doesn't exist. Bad souls simply "disappear".

Oh boy.

These boys were not as old as God, but they understood a few things:

"The mind is its own place and in itself,
Can make a Heaven of Hell, a Hell of Heaven."

Milton, Paradise Lost


"[T]here is nothing either good or bad, but thinking makes it so."

Wild Bill, Hamlet

 

[Kepler]

Re: Religion Thread: ...and suddenly, everyone's a theology scholar

These boys were not as old as God, but they understood a few things:

"The mind is its own place and in itself,
Can make a Heaven of Hell, a Hell of Heaven."

Milton, Paradise Lost


"[T]here is nothing either good or bad, but thinking makes it so."

Wild Bill, Hamlet

The Man Himself said it best:

“The kingdom of God never comes by watching for it. Men cannot say, 'Look, here it is', or 'there it is', for the kingdom of God is within you.” -- Luke 17:21

Get it, f-ckers? There's no magic. It's not supernatural. I dunno how anybody can get from there to Left Behind. It's not like He was being subtle. But even something that explicit still seems to have lost almost the entire Christian demo.

 

[5mn_Major]

Re: Religion Thread: ...and suddenly, everyone's a theology scholar

Happy Easter and Passover.

Today, setting church hurt aside, I wish you a good day, whether today is about Jesus or it's an excuse to eat copious amounts of chocolate.

Indeed!

Actually went to both a passover dinner (Haggadot?) and Jewish service on Saturday before hitting my usual service on Sunday. Interesting comparison of traditions.

 

[leswp1]

Re: Religion Thread: ...and suddenly, everyone's a theology scholar

The Man Himself said it best:

“The kingdom of God never comes by watching for it. Men cannot say, 'Look, here it is', or 'there it is', for the kingdom of God is within you.” -- Luke 17:21

Get it, f-ckers? There's no magic. It's not supernatural. I dunno how anybody can get from there to Left Behind. It's not like He was being subtle. But even something that explicit still seems to have lost almost the entire Christian demo.

Skip left behind- how do they go from feed the widows, love one another, we are all children of God to build a wall, everyone is going to Hell unless they forget half of what Jesus taught, judge each other, whine when any sort of social net program is proposed?

 

[5mn_Major]

Re: Religion Thread: ...and suddenly, everyone's a theology scholar

Get it, f-ckers? There's no magic. It's not supernatural. I dunno how anybody can get from there to Left Behind. It's not like He was being subtle. But even something that explicit still seems to have lost almost the entire Christian demo.

Because by definition, they're not Christians. They have allowed their faith to be trumped and as a result, do not base themselves on the life and teachings of Jesus of Nazareth. See:

Skip left behind- how do they go from feed the widows, love one another, we are all children of God to build a wall, everyone is going to Hell unless they forget half of what Jesus taught, judge each other, whine when any sort of social net program is proposed?

And although atheist apologists argue that No True Scotsman forces them to be defined as Christian...that logic construct is irrelevant and does not apply here.

 

[Kepler]

Re: Religion Thread: ...and suddenly, everyone's a theology scholar

And although atheist apologists argue that No True Scotsman forces them to be defined as Christian...that logic construct is irrelevant and does not apply here.

Logic is logic, so a well-formed "logic construct" is always relevant.

A rule of logic can be irrelevant to a fact pattern, but (1) your objection is exactly what those who are excluded in a NTS claim would say in a situation like this, and (2) you haven't given any positive argument for what constitutes a "true" Christian that is testable. The people you are excluding argue that they "base themselves on the life and teachings of Jesus of Nazareth." Loudly and ad nauseum. You are saying their sincerely held self-identification isn't enough so who then judges? And based on what, as we have established that there is literally not a single Christian on Earth who obeys every single word of the Bible?

Here is my question for you. Let's say I observe Jesus' teachings but I don't sign on for the full premium God package. I adhere to the philosophy of Jesus the man, as transcribed in the Gospels, but I do not put the Apostles' supernatural spin on Christ the Savior -- at any rate beyond the deep respect for and belief in the positive power of someone like Martin Luther King Jr. or Gandhi. What if I think Jesus is a great teacher and the Apostles were average men of their time, trapped in their traditions, and they imposed their supernatural worldview over Jesus' humanist worldview ("the kingdom of God is within you")?

Am I a Christian? Or is being a Christian a particular interpretation of Jesus' life? And if I am the guy with the bumper sticker, "I"m down with Jesus, it's his fans I have a problem with," then what collective noun am I? And in your view am I d-mned?

 

[5mn_Major]

Re: Religion Thread: ...and suddenly, everyone's a theology scholar

Logic is logic, so a well-formed "logic construct" is always relevant.

Not correct. A logic construct can well be a legitimate one...but still not be relevant to a specific discussion. Certain preconditions must exist or there is no relevance.

A rule of logic can be irrelevant to a fact pattern, but (1) your objection is exactly what those who are excluded in a NTS claim would say in a situation like this, and (2) you haven't given any positive argument for what constitutes a "true" Christian that is testable. The people you are excluding argue that they "base themselves on the life and teachings of Jesus of Nazareth." Loudly and ad nauseum. You are saying their sincerely held self-identification isn't enough so who then judges? And based on what, as we have established that there is literally not a single Christian on Earth who obeys every single word of the Bible?

Here's the underlying problem with No True Scotsman in this case. Preconditions.

The Scotsman in the original construct was assumed to have ancestry, or was born or lived in Scotland. The definition of the Scotsman is assumed to be undeniable. That does not apply here. These individuals do not meet the definition of Christians - which per wiki, webster, dictionary.com, etc. - stems from the life and teachings of Jesus of Nazareth. That instantly stops a logical construct that relies on that precondition to hold relevance to this discussion.

Say the classic argument went something like this:

Person A: "No Scotsman puts sugar on his porridge."
Person B: "But my 100% Hispanic uncle Julio - who was born in Tempe and never visited Scotland - is a Scotsman and he puts sugar on his porridge."
Person A: "Ah yes, but no true Scotsman puts sugar on his porridge."

The Christian definition not met, the precondition does not hold and NTS becomes irrelevant in this discussion.

Here is my question for you. Let's say I observe Jesus' teachings but I don't sign on for the full premium God package. I adhere to the philosophy of Jesus the man, as transcribed in the Gospels, but I do not put the Apostles' supernatural spin on Christ the Savior -- at any rate beyond the deep respect for and belief in the positive power of someone like Martin Luther King Jr. or Gandhi. What if I think Jesus is a great teacher and the Apostles were average men of their time, trapped in their traditions, and they imposed their supernatural worldview over Jesus' humanist worldview ("the kingdom of God is within you")?

Am I a Christian? Or is being a Christian a particular interpretation of Jesus' life? And if I am the guy with the bumper sticker, "I"m down with Jesus, it's his fans I have a problem with," then what collective noun am I? And in your view am I d-mned?

If someone did not sign on to the full package...there is the potential for there to be gray area. This, like much of reality, occurs on a spectrum. But much of that assumes that your behavior is to a lesser or greater extent aligned with JC and that's where your analogy runs into trouble. The observable behavior is diametrically opposed to Jesus' teachings. So the decision here is not whether someone 'makes the cut' as a Christian or not...they just aren't in the consideration set regardless of what they say.

If I say I'm a liberal, but have never voted anything but straight R tickets because of my beliefs. Would you say that I'm a liberal? Do you believe that W was the epitome of compassionate? He said he was. What about that Trump who is very 'respectful of women'?

Prove that these individuals are defined by Christian - as is tied to the major themes of Jesus' teachings - thereby meeting the precondition of NTS and we can talk.

 

[Kepler]

Re: Religion Thread: ...and suddenly, everyone's a theology scholar

But much of that assumes that your behavior is to a lesser or greater extent aligned with JC and that's where your analogy runs into trouble. The observable behavior is diametrically opposed to Jesus' teachings. So the decision here is not whether someone 'makes the cut' as a Christian or not...they just aren't in the consideration set regardless of what they say.

But what if they mean what they say?

I think I understand what you are saying, but my (rudimentary) understanding of Jesus' teachings is that he stressed not behavior, but intent -- specifically belief. If you're doing all the right things for the wrong reason, you're doing it wrong. If you are righteous -- you have invited the spirit within you -- but you continually fall short of the standard of behavior, you are still right with the Lord.

My upbringing via the Whore of Babylon stresses: "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me." / The Protestants, those weirdos who actually read the Bible, seem to really like to stress: "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves / It is the gift of God."

It reminds me a bit of this.

 

[5mn_Major]

Re: Religion Thread: ...and suddenly, everyone's a theology scholar

Good stuff. My opinion...

I think I understand what you are saying, but my (rudimentary) understanding of Jesus' teachings is that he stressed not behavior, but intent -- specifically belief. If you're doing all the right things for the wrong reason, you're doing it wrong. If you are righteous -- you have invited the spirit within you -- but you continually fall short of the standard of behavior, you are still right with the Lord.

What you say is mostly valid. Jesus set the priorities with the most important commandments 1) belief in God 2) respect others (golden rule). Now carrying that forward...

Jesus is God because of who He is. If we were asked to believe in a meaningless lightpost God, the Bible could be a lot shorter. To get to meaning, the Bible is still arguably the best teaching tool in history and relies on a total mastery of storied lessons, analogies and parables. Having said that, the #1 issue with the Bible is that its PHD level stuff...and the primary take aways are frequently misunderstood and can be easily co-opted for personal gain. So...the way to guarantee real meaning of it is to assume its pretty much a parable in its entirety. In the end, John finally gets to the point of the ultimate parable - God is love. This position is validated by Jesus' entire ministry.

So...why would Jesus call out both belief in God (love) and the golden rule (respect)? There's no better way to make love and respect 'sacred'. The stakes are raised. Can you seriously love your enemy if love is just a good idea? Not likely. How does the love concept make it through millennia? Past the extreme human power/selfishness of the dark ages? If it becomes the basis of your belief system...truly amazing things are possible - universities, hospitals, valuing individuals and addressing tragedies such as child labor, human trafficking.

My upbringing via the Whore of Babylon stresses: "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me." / The Protestants, those weirdos who actually read the Bible, seem to really like to stress: "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves / It is the gift of God."

Its a parable. God is love.

 

[FadeToBlack&Gold]

Re: Religion Thread: ...and suddenly, everyone's a theology scholar

Derp.

We can't have humanist chaplains, because they aren't as moral as...oh, wait.

 

[MissThundercat]

Re: Religion Thread: ...and suddenly, everyone's a theology scholar

Did some reading last night. The notion of pearly gates and streets of gold in heaven comes from a passage describing the New Jerusalem.

I believe heaven and hell are among us right now.

 

[5mn_Major]

Re: Religion Thread: ...and suddenly, everyone's a theology scholar

Did some reading last night. The notion of pearly gates and streets of gold in heaven comes from a passage describing the New Jerusalem.

I believe heaven and hell are among us right now.

In general, I agree. They say war is hell. And I that makes sense. Society now knows what the ten commandments are. And it knows what Jesus was about. Both the needless waging of war and the on the ground execution of war pretty much represents all of that. There could well be more other subtle manifestations as well.

 

[Kepler]

Re: Religion Thread: ...and suddenly, everyone's a theology scholar

This is all there is, so insofar as heaven and hell are real they have been with us all the way. "The kingdom of God is within you" also implies that everything is within us -- all the right paths and all the wrong paths.

 

[5mn_Major]

Re: Religion Thread: ...and suddenly, everyone's a theology scholar

"The kingdom of God is within you" also implies that everything is within us -- all the right paths and all the wrong paths.

Yeah. Lessons in the Bible provide a solid toolbox for self reflection, strength and guidance.

 

[Kepler]

Re: Religion Thread: ...and suddenly, everyone's a theology scholar

Yeah. Lessons in the Bible provide a solid toolbox for self reflection, strength and guidance.

Or whatever. There are as many ways as there are people.

 

[St. Clown]

Re: Religion Thread: ...and suddenly, everyone's a theology scholar

Yeah. Lessons in the Bible provide a solid toolbox for self reflection, strength and guidance.

Yup, the exact same schtick the Buddhists state. It's like they're all different ways of spinning and telling the same old lessons and ideals in life.

 

[Kepler]

Re: Religion Thread: ...and suddenly, everyone's a theology scholar

The problem isn't choosing a path. The problem is saying it's the only path.

I think 5mn would agree with that if you restrict the set of paths to gods. He seems to get a little wiggy when we with no gods insist we are walking our path, too. He tells me again and again how my path leads nowhere.

That is really my only gripe with 5mn. In other respects he seems like a perfectly reasonable chap. He's just ignorant as hell about atheism.

 

[Kepler]

Re: Religion Thread: ...and suddenly, everyone's a theology scholar

Yup, the exact same schtick the Buddhists state. It's like they're all different ways of spinning and telling the same old lessons and ideals in life.

I know, right?