What's new
USCHO Fan Forum

This is a sample guest message. Register a free account today to become a member! Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members through your own private inbox!

  • The USCHO Fan Forum has migrated to a new plaform, xenForo. Most of the function of the forum should work in familiar ways. Please note that you can switch between light and dark modes by clicking on the gear icon in the upper right of the main menu bar. We are hoping that this new platform will prove to be faster and more reliable. Please feel free to explore its features.

Regional Attendance

Re: Regional Attendance

I... kind of like this, actually.



two words. :mad:

My biggest complaint would be that sure, the conference tourney winner could could be awarded a home game, but I'm not sure the worst autobid should automatically be above the other 2 home teams...
 
Re: Regional Attendance

My biggest complaint would be that sure, the conference tourney winner could could be awarded a home game, but I'm not sure the worst autobid should automatically be above the other 2 home teams...

Sort of like the NBA did from 2007-2015: the division winners were guaranteed only home-court (a top-4 seed), but could get a lower seed in the top 4 if a second-place team had a better record. You'd seed the 6 conference champs and the 2 at-large home-teams by Pairwise for the top 8 seeds, then the bottom 8 seeds also by Pairwise.

This year would have ended up:

#16 Duluth @ #1 Quinnipiac
#9 BC @ #8 RIT

#13 Yale @ #4 Providence
#12 BU @ #5 Michigan

#15 Notre Dame @ #2 St. Cloud
#10 Denver @ #7 Ferris

#14 Harvard @ #3 North Dakota
#11 Lowell @ #6 Northeastern

You probably swap Lowell and Denver in this scenario to avoid the intra-conference matchup. I rather like this bracket TBH!
 
Re: Regional Attendance

Problem with that proposal is the conference tournaments aren't equal. Considerably tougher to slog through multiple rounds of the HE tournament, for instance, than winning two games in the B1G.
I would give the conferences the freedom to award their autobid in any rational manner. I'd also let each conference structure their tournament in any way they wish.

If Hockey East wants to contract its conference tournament to six teams and have a single elimination event in order to equalize the difficulty, they'd get no quarrel from me.

Because the conferences are basically free to do this now, I wouldn't expect major changes. But one of the conferences could surprise us with a clever plan to give themselves an edge. If so, more power to them.

I... kind of like this, actually.
Well, thank you.:)

two words. :mad:
Easy now; I could have said Chiefs.;) In any event, it's fixed.

My biggest complaint would be that sure, the conference tourney winner could could be awarded a home game, but I'm not sure the worst autobid should automatically be above the other 2 home teams...
This is exactly the kind of tweak I'm open to. If you want to guarantee the top two teams in the Pairwise the top two seeds in the tournament, you'll get no quarrel from me. Give the 6 autobids teams seeds #3 through #8. All of my important objectives are met. In particular, each conference is still guaranteed the chance to host one of the Round of 16 games. Notice that for 2016, this wouldn't have changed a thing. Quinnipiac and St. Cloud were the Top 2 either way.

Now maybe you're saying you'd want 2016 North Dakota at #3 and 2016 Providence at #4. Then the other four autobid teams would be in the #5 - #8 slots. That might be more complicated than it's worth, but I think we could come up with decision rules that would get us there. As long as you're not messing with the home ice assignments, seeding tweaks are probably a friendly amendment.
 
Re: Regional Attendance

Sort of like the NBA did from 2007-2015: the division winners were guaranteed only home-court (a top-4 seed), but could get a lower seed in the top 4 if a second-place team had a better record. You'd seed the 6 conference champs and the 2 at-large home-teams by Pairwise for the top 8 seeds, then the bottom 8 seeds also by Pairwise.

This year would have ended up:

#16 Duluth @ #1 Quinnipiac
#9 BC @ #8 RIT

#13 Yale @ #4 Providence
#12 BU @ #5 Michigan

#15 Notre Dame @ #2 St. Cloud
#10 Denver @ #7 Ferris

#14 Harvard @ #3 North Dakota
#11 Lowell @ #6 Northeastern

You probably swap Lowell and Denver in this scenario to avoid the intra-conference matchup. I rather like this bracket TBH!
I would be absolutely fine with this bracket. In fact, I like it better than my first try!
 
Re: Regional Attendance

It also suggests a compromise. Keep the tournament one and done in deference to the underdogs. Compromise just enough on neutral ice to stage events with a minimally acceptable fan experience. Give a little, get a little.

That would be fair enough, but what incentive do the underdogs have to compromise, if they're already happy with the status quo?

If a man came up to you on the street and said "Give me $100", and you said "No", would it be a fair compromise for him to then request $50? That's halfway in-between, right?


Powers &8^]
 
Re: Regional Attendance

That would be fair enough, but what incentive do the underdogs have to compromise, if they're already happy with the status quo?

If a man came up to you on the street and said "Give me $100", and you said "No", would it be a fair compromise for him to then request $50? That's halfway in-between, right?
This zeros in on the issue, that's for sure. My question to you is, are we a community? Or not?

If battle lines have been drawn, and one sees things as strictly us vs. them -- then of course there's no incentive. In contrast, if one cares about college hockey as a whole, and wants it to be the best it can be, creating a playoff structure that works for all is its own reward.

All 60 teams have voluntarily joined the NCAA. I believe all but the new ASU program have joined one of the 6 conferences. Every member has a responsibility to maintain and strengthen their organizations, as well as enjoying the privileges. OK, dropping out is an option. But if you stay, you need to be a "good teammate," IMHO.

In sharp contrast, there's no direct connection between your pedestrian and the panhandler. But maybe there's a generalized obligation toward one's fellow man, and therefore the panhandler should be assisted?

Well, I wouldn't pretend to impose that obligation on anyone. There any number of reasons why giving to a panhandler might actually be the wrong thing to do. To mention just one: In most cases, letting established social services assist panhandlers is a better situation for all concerned. Viewed in that way, giving $50 is a mistake, not a compromise.

Let's go back to the Lucia Eligibility Proposal for a moment. His end run tactic was almost universally condemned by USCHO Posters. But let's take another look. You seem to be saying that there's no obligation to treat conference mates or other NCAA schools with fairness. Getting your way is all that counts.

So what do you think? Were all of us who criticized Lucia wrong to do so? If he's actually found a way to beat the system, is the only reasonable response a tip of the hat?
 
Re: Regional Attendance

In sharp contrast, there's no direct connection between your pedestrian and the panhandler. But maybe there's a generalized obligation toward one's fellow man, and therefore the panhandler should be assisted?

I appreciate your thoughtfulness.

I should point out that I didn't say the man was a panhandler. Maybe he is. Maybe he's a thief. Maybe he's rich and just wants to see how much money he can get from you. Maybe he's your brother and he needs money.

My analogy was only supposed to cover the nature of compromise, not to reflect the relationship between the two parties.

Remember, my question was, "what incentive do the underdogs have to compromise?" If you're saying that the compromise would be better for college hockey *as a whole*, then that would qualify as an incentive. But only if all parties agree that the compromise actually would make things better for college hockey as a whole. And that's precisely what we're debating. Some people would prefer the playing field to be as level as possible once we reach the national tournament. Others think an entertaining atmosphere is paramount. How can we resolve that dichotomy?

But I think a corollary question remains unanswered: if we're asking the "have-nots" to give something up (the leveler playing field afforded by neutral sites) in the name of compromise, what are we asking the "haves" to give up in exchange?


Powers &8^]
 
Re: Regional Attendance

How exactly are the "have nots" giving something up by having the games at nuetral sites?

I think the idea is that if there were theoretical tournament games hosted by top seeds (whether 4 regionals hosted by the top 4 seeds, or the top 8 seeds hosting the bottom 8 in the first round, or whatever), your traditional AHA conference champion autobid, etc. (the "have-nots") are never going to be in the top 8 in Pairwise (much less the top 4) and therefore the AHA teams will never get a chance to host. Whereas with the current system of fully neutral sites, they're on the same footing as the North Dakotas and BCs in that everyone has to at the very least play in a different building.
 
Re: Regional Attendance

I think the idea is that if there were theoretical tournament games hosted by top seeds (whether 4 regionals hosted by the top 4 seeds, or the top 8 seeds hosting the bottom 8 in the first round, or whatever), your traditional AHA conference champion autobid, etc. (the "have-nots") are never going to be in the top 8 in Pairwise (much less the top 4) and therefore the AHA teams will never get a chance to host. Whereas with the current system of fully neutral sites, they're on the same footing as the North Dakotas and BCs in that everyone has to at the very least play in a different building.
One of the things that no one ever seems to talk about, though, is what exactly is the goal of the preliminary rounds of the tournament?

There was a good discussion of it again this year pertaining to the basketball tournament. Is it better to put in some small school from a no-name conference, or do you put in a Michigan or Syracuse or someone from a power conference that actually has a chance to go on a run and win some games.

In the hockey tournament, if our "goal" is to "give everyone an equal chance" to win the tournament, then I can see why people want to have the tournament in quiet, emotionless boring neutral stadiums.

But if our goal is to actually determine the best team, to give the four best teams a chance to get to the Frozen Four and then battle it out for the title, then I don't care that the AHA champion may never have a high enough pairwise to host. If they are one of the four best teams (which they probably aren't) they'll find a way to get there.
 
Re: Regional Attendance

Ok, but the problem is...no coaches don't want the current system to change...the only people that seem to care are us, the fans.
 
Re: Regional Attendance

I appreciate your thoughtfulness.
Same.

I should point out that I didn't say the man was a panhandler. Maybe he is. Maybe he's a thief. Maybe he's rich and just wants to see how much money he can get from you. Maybe he's your brother and he needs money.
That wasn't lost on me. I thought about commenting on multiple scenarios. But my posts run long as it is. Taking on multiple hypotheticals felt unmanageable. The panhandler just seemed like the most likely scenario.

My analogy was only supposed to cover the nature of compromise, not to reflect the relationship between the two parties.
Then we're conceptualizing this side issue in very different ways. To me, the relationship has everything to do with the "nature of compromise." It's not just a math problem. I don't understand how you can separate the two. In some relationships, compromise is unnecessary, even inappropriate. In other cases it's highly recommended, even ethically required.

More hypos, highly condensed version: I've spoken to the panhandler case. But suppose it was your brother, standing next to his disabled vehicle. Are you going to tell him: I'll pay for the tow, but you have to walk home? Of course not. Although it's the opposite result in comparison to the panhandler, it's another example of compromise making no sense, due to the relationship. Now, make it a stranger standing next to the disabled vehicle. Compromise is in play. Maybe you're uncomfortable with situation, and calling 911 from the safety of your car is the best you can do. Perfectly acceptable compromise, I'd argue. Or maybe you're comfortable giving the stranded motorist a ride, but paying for the tow is strictly his problem. Again, acceptable compromise. What am I missing? How is any of this off the mark?

Remember, my question was, "what incentive do the underdogs have to compromise?" If you're saying that the compromise would be better for college hockey *as a whole*, then that would qualify as an incentive.
Yes, that was my point.

But only if all parties agree that the compromise actually would make things better for college hockey as a whole. And that's precisely what we're debating. Some people would prefer the playing field to be as level as possible once we reach the national tournament. Others think an entertaining atmosphere is paramount. How can we resolve that dichotomy?
Again, we're conceptualizing the issue differently. But I think I understand the difference this time. You're arguing that neutrality must be optimized, regardless of the cost on other fronts. My argument is that when staging a tournament, there are several factors that need to be minimally satisfactory, even if compromise is necessary on some or even all of the factors. I specifically disagree that tournament atmosphere should be "paramount." It's an important factor, but just one of the several.

So in my view, the issue isn't a true dichotomy. I'm playing with multiple variables at the same time, trying to get the best mix. You see it as a zero sum game. I don't. My belief is that you can increase the value of whole such that everyone experiences a gain.

Granted, part of my optimism is based on the fact that I see so much room for improvement. Your take is the status quo is largely satisfactory, which of course creates a disconnect.

But I think a corollary question remains unanswered: if we're asking the "have-nots" to give something up (the leveler playing field afforded by neutral sites) in the name of compromise, what are we asking the "haves" to give up in exchange?
Well, what do you want? :)

As an aside, it's little bit funny being asked to represent the haves. In the world of college hockey, Ohio State competes as an underdog. Yes, our highly successful Football program has tons of advantages and some of that filters down to the other sports, at least in a financial sense. But we don't have a huge traveling fan base for hockey, a large recruiting base in our home state, and so on. For me to craft a real solution on this, I really need guidance from both "sides."

So again, what do you want? Our particular conversation on this subject has spanned at least two seasons, maybe more. I've long since lost count of the number of options I've put on the table. In general, you've just been playing defense. Ask, and perhaps you'll receive.;)
 
Re: Regional Attendance

With all the talk about improving atmosphere and talking home games, I had this thought. If the top four teams host regionals, what is the atmosphere like for the game(s) not involving the host school. I think they would be worse than what we currently have. Outside of what is allotted for the other schools, I would suspect host school fans will buy up the remainder, and would they sit through 2 games?
 
Re: Regional Attendance

Then we're conceptualizing this side issue in very different ways. To me, the relationship has everything to do with the "nature of compromise." It's not just a math problem. I don't understand how you can separate the two. In some relationships, compromise is unnecessary, even inappropriate. In other cases it's highly recommended, even ethically required.
Well, you're talking about whether to compromise, which does indeed depend on the relationship. I was speaking to the definition of compromise, which requires both parties to give something up.

Again, we're conceptualizing the issue differently. But I think I understand the difference this time. You're arguing that neutrality must be optimized, regardless of the cost on other fronts. My argument is that when staging a tournament, there are several factors that need to be minimally satisfactory, even if compromise is necessary on some or even all of the factors. I specifically disagree that tournament atmosphere should be "paramount." It's an important factor, but just one of the several.
Well I wasn't trying to imply anything about your position in particular. But when we're talking about a postseason tournament, I do tend to favor neutrality. The opposite is favoritism, and that just seems wrong.


So in my view, the issue isn't a true dichotomy. I'm playing with multiple variables at the same time, trying to get the best mix. You see it as a zero sum game. I don't. My belief is that you can increase the value of whole such that everyone experiences a gain.
That sounds good in theory, but what's the gain for teams that currently have a fighting chance in a neutral arena?

As an aside, it's little bit funny being asked to represent the haves.
I'm not asking you to do so. I'm trying to be quite neutral in my responses. But I am basing this on the proposal for the top 8 in PWR to host the first round, and I do see it as a boon for those eight and a detriment for those teams whose schedules prevent them from any opportunity to achieve that bar, as well as for those for whom such heights are possible but rare. What, exactly, is the compromise here?

So again, what do you want? Our particular conversation on this subject has spanned at least two seasons, maybe more. I've long since lost count of the number of options I've put on the table. In general, you've just been playing defense. Ask, and perhaps you'll receive.;)
It's a little funny being asked to represent the have-nots. ;)

As you noted, my priority is fairness and neutrality. I feel like we have that now. I can't think of anything that would boost the competitiveness of the lower seeds enough to make up for the loss of neutral ice. A share in the gate proceeds wouldn't do it. Maybe the lower seed starts each period on the power play?


Powers &8^]
 
Re: Regional Attendance

With all the talk about improving atmosphere and talking home games, I had this thought. If the top four teams host regionals, what is the atmosphere like for the game(s) not involving the host school. I think they would be worse than what we currently have. Outside of what is allotted for the other schools, I would suspect host school fans will buy up the remainder, and would they sit through 2 games?

If that were to ever happen - the top four seeds hosting a regional each - then it would be wise to start reserving a certain percentage of tickets as individual game tickets for the first round. While a certain percentage of people would leave after the first game regardless of outcome, I think a number of fans would stay to see what their next opponent looks like, assuming the host team wins.
 
Re: Regional Attendance

...You're arguing that neutrality must be optimized, regardless of the cost on other fronts. My argument is that when staging a tournament, there are several factors that need to be minimally satisfactory, even if compromise is necessary on some or even all of the factors. I specifically disagree that tournament atmosphere should be "paramount." It's an important factor, but just one of the several.

...

I'm not sure what “neutrality being optimized” means. But to the extent that I understand it, having a game on someones home rink doesn't meet qualify as “minimally acceptable”. Maybe you can give us some other examples of degrees of neutrality.

I guess I can think of one, but you've already referred to it as hypocritical, I believe. I don't think that Fargo is ideal from a neutrality standpoint, if North Dakota is one of the participants, but I accept it. I think Miami O got screwed in Providence 2015 from a neutrality standpoint, but I accepted it.

One definition of compromise is that neither party is happy with the result, but neither party is totally unsatisfied either. The simplest way of doing that is to just do the east regionals and the west regionals differently. A lot wrong with that, but at least it would improve the atmosphere in the places that have the worst problem.
 
Last edited:
Re: Regional Attendance

Well, you're talking about whether to compromise, which does indeed depend on the relationship. I was speaking to the definition of compromise, which requires both parties to give something up...
OK, Gotcha. I went to my dictionary, and yes, that's one of multiple definitions. But I hate to think that all of this effort was just about semantics. If it really matters, I'll amend my phrasing and call on the community to come together and problem solve.

Well I wasn't trying to imply anything about your position in particular. But when we're talking about a postseason tournament, I do tend to favor neutrality. The opposite is favoritism, and that just seems wrong.
As you likely recall, I have spoken out against "unearned" home ice advantage. In the past, campus sites were chosen well in advance to allow for orderly preparations to be made. But doing it that way allowed for lower seeds to enjoy home ice. I'll pass on the word favoritism; I'd say it was more a case of administrative convenience trumping fairness. But I would certainly acknowledge that there were unfair results.

...But I am basing this on the proposal for the top 8 in PWR to host the first round, and I do see it as a boon for those eight and a detriment for those teams whose schedules prevent them from any opportunity to achieve that bar, as well as for those for whom such heights are possible but rare...
I thought we were discussing my most recent proposal. (tape version) 6 of the 8 home ice assignments would go to teams who won their conference tournaments. Insular regular season schedules become irrelevant for gaining a home ice assignment for 3/4 of the spots. That is, in fact, something the "have-nots" would get that they don't have now: An opportunity to earn home ice in the NCAAs solely by defeating their conference mates.

Granted, the 2 at-large teams on home ice could still exploit the advantages of a tougher schedule to help get there. But that doesn't change the fact that the movement is in the direction of the "have-nots."

...As you noted, my priority is fairness and neutrality. I feel like we have that now. I can't think of anything that would boost the competitiveness of the lower seeds enough to make up for the loss of neutral ice. A share in the gate proceeds wouldn't do it. Maybe the lower seed starts each period on the power play?
Don't mind you having a little fun with rhetoric, but of course those two things aren't on the table.

I'm not sure what “neutrality being optimized” means. But to the extent that I understand it, having a game on someones home rink doesn't meet qualify as “minimally acceptable”. Maybe you can give us some other examples of degrees of neutrality.
You're asking me to represent a viewpoint that isn't my own, but I'll spend a moment on it. With Michigan in the field, Yost is not neutral; the Joe would be somewhat neutral; Grand Rapids would be more neutral still. But if the NCAA's objective is to load up any these locations with Wolverine fans for atmosphere & gate, to me the difference is only in degree. I'll allow that someone could sincerely argue that the Joe was unacceptable while Grand Rapids was OK. Maybe that's Lt. Powers' position. I don't know, that's for him to say.

I guess I can think of one, but you've already referred to it as hypocritical, I believe. I don't think that Fargo is ideal from a neutrality standpoint, if North Dakota is one of the participants, but I accept it. I think Miami O got screwed in Providence 2015 from a neutrality standpoint, but I accepted it.
I've acknowledged the need to accept imperfect formats to find a viable solution. So I certainly can't fault you for doing exactly that. But I do think these cases expose the fact the status quo is less consistent and less fair than people routinely claim. The Committee becomes strategically non-neutral when it feels it's necessary. Let's wink and have a sellout in Fargo to balance the budget? Pragmatic, yes. Necessary, maybe. Moral high ground? Not so much.

One definition of compromise is that neither party is happy with the result, but neither party is totally unsatisfied either.
This is much more what I have in mind when I use the word compromise in ordinary conversation. FWIW.

The simplest way of doing that is to just do the east regionals and the west regionals differently. A lot wrong with that, but at least it would improve the atmosphere in the places that have the worst problem.
Agreed on all three counts.
 
Last edited:
Re: Regional Attendance

My biggest complaint would be that sure, the conference tourney winner could could be awarded a home game, but I'm not sure the worst autobid should automatically be above the other 2 home teams...
Same here. What if conference tourney winners got to host only if they were ALSO in the top 16 of PWR (or other arbitrary cutoff). That way, someone could jump up from #16 to host as a bonus for winning their tourney, but not all the way from #36 or #28 as RIT and Ferris would have done this year. I would also give tourney-winning hosts the boost to face weaker teams as a bonus for them. By this method, the matchups would have been:

#36 RIT @ #1 Quinnipiac
#28 Ferris @ #3 SCSU
#13 UMD @ #7 Michigan
#12 Yale @ #14 Northeastern
#11 Notre Dame @ #2 North Dakota
#10 Harvard @ #4 BC
#9 BU @ #5 Denver
#8 UM-Lowell @ #6 Providence

7 of top 8 teams are still hosting, with bonus to Northeastern for jumping up and winning their tourney. Minor bonus to Michigan in getting to host #13 instead of #10 per a "natural" bracket.

RIT and Ferris are the big losers in this setup, but sorry - can't cry for teams rated that low in the Pairwise. Be glad to be there and have a better overall season next year.

"Minor Losers" = North Dakota, BC, Denver, and Providence, having to face seeds 4, 3, 3, and 3 seeds higher than the "natural" bracket. Well, stop whining - you still get home games. Shoulda won your tourneys.

Seems fair all around to me.
 
Re: Regional Attendance

RIT and Ferris are the big losers in this setup, but sorry - can't cry for teams rated that low in the Pairwise. Be glad to be there and have a better overall season next year.

What you seem to be missing is that "have a better overall season next year" wouldn't be enough for teams in some conferences. They don't just have to be better, they have to be almost perfect, and their conference mates have to have a collective OOC record around .400 or so. Placing a PWR cutoff for a conference tournament winner to host is just a mean-spirited way to keep the "have-nots" from getting too uppity. Like you're doing them a favor just letting them compete in the tournament at all.


Powers &8^]
 
Back
Top