Rampage in Colorado Movie theater.

[Old Pio]

Re: Rampage in Colorado Movie theater.

I disagree with the basic sentiment here. Oh sure, anecdotal evidence is easy to collect, and it's easy to sway people to believe that non-economic damages have no place. I just disagree.

I also just thought people might find it interesting to read about a law professor/plaintiff's lawyer who believes that there is no merit for a lawsuit in the shooting here.

Yeah, you're right, it's not a racket. What was I thinking of? You add up enough annecdotes and you get something pretty close to an airtight case. Take the case of Caesar Belli, son of that ultimate ambulance chaser Melvin. Years ago, when an L1011 bellyflopped in to DFW because of a windshear, old Caesar was in the hotel with the families THAT NIGHT trying to drum up business.

You'll also recall the case in Bhopal, India, where the release of some MIC gas killed hundreds of workers. Belli also represented them and demanded that the courts compensate them at the same rate they'd be compsensated in the United States. So these poor folks, who were making a few hundred dollars a year, should be compensated in the millions as if they were Americans, because MELVIN WANTED THE COMISSION.

How about we institute the same rules they have in England? John Edwards takes a personal injury or product liability case on contingency and loses, he pays the other guy's legal fees. The way it works now, some clumsy yokel falls down outside of your business and hauls you to court. You prevail. And your lawyer turns to you and says: "Congratulations, that'll be $5,000." Maybe making John Edwards or whichever scum bag took the case on contingency liable for the legal fees might make him a trifle less inclined to file worthless lawsuits.

I'd imagine you'd disagree with the "basic sentiment" right up until the time you took nine inches of sandpaper dik from a scumbag like John Edwards or Melvin Belli. Remember, Jesse James did it with a gun.

 

[gojackets]

Re: Rampage in Colorado Movie theater.

There's already precedent here though. The lawsuits against the music industry that the violent lyrics led kids to do violent things were thrown out of court. That should set the precedent that the same thing should happen with lawsuits against violent movies. And no judge wants to set the precedent of allowing a case against a doctor saying that the doctor should have known that the kid was going to go on a murderous rampage.

 

[Old Pio]

Re: Rampage in Colorado Movie theater.

There's already precedent here though. The lawsuits against the music industry that the violent lyrics led kids to do violent things were thrown out of court. That should set the precedent that the same thing should happen with lawsuits against violent movies. And no judge wants to set the precedent of allowing a case against a doctor saying that the doctor should have known that the kid was going to go on a murderous rampage.

Part of the charm of our system is the extortion of defendants with deep pockets. Defendants who will consider the cost of defending against a frivolous suit and compare that to the cost of paying the plaintiff "go away." All too frequently the defendants just pay up. They figure the cost to their business in both dollars and public relations simply isn't worth the effort.

 

[duper]

Re: Rampage in Colorado Movie theater.

Yeah, you're right, it's not a racket. What was I thinking of? You add up enough annecdotes and you get something pretty close to an airtight case. Take the case of Caesar Belli, son of that ultimate ambulance chaser Melvin. Years ago, when an L1011 bellyflopped in to DFW because of a windshear, old Caesar was in the hotel with the families THAT NIGHT trying to drum up business.

You'll also recall the case in Bhopal, India, where the release of some MIC gas killed hundreds of workers. Belli also represented them and demanded that the courts compensate them at the same rate they'd be compsensated in the United States. So these poor folks, who were making a few hundred dollars a year, should be compensated in the millions as if they were Americans, because MELVIN WANTED THE COMISSION.

How about we institute the same rules they have in England? John Edwards takes a personal injury or product liability case on contingency and loses, he pays the other guy's legal fees. The way it works now, some clumsy yokel falls down outside of your business and hauls you to court. You prevail. And your lawyer turns to you and says: "Congratulations, that'll be $5,000." Maybe making John Edwards or whichever scum bag took the case on contingency liable for the legal fees might make him a trifle less inclined to file worthless lawsuits.

I'd imagine you'd disagree with the "basic sentiment" right up until the time you took nine inches of sandpaper dik from a scumbag like John Edwards or Melvin Belli. Remember, Jesse James did it with a gun.

I wrote up a whole reply to this, but it is awfully far afield of the topic of this thread.

In any case, a pretty well respected expert in the field of personal injury law believes that lawsuits in this issue will be thrown out, except possibly against James Holmes, who probably can't pay a judgment anyway (especially as he is quite likely to spend the remainder of his days in jail and prison.)

 

[Old Pio]

Re: Rampage in Colorado Movie theater.

I wrote up a whole reply to this, but it is awfully far afield of the topic of this thread.

In any case, a pretty well respected expert in the field of personal injury law believes that lawsuits in this issue will be thrown out, except possibly against James Holmes, who probably can't pay a judgment anyway (especially as he is quite likely to spend the remainder of his days in jail and prison.)

A true inspiration

 

[joecct]

Re: Rampage in Colorado Movie theater.

The Department of Homeland Security (via the City of Houston) has published a video of what to do when the bullets start flying:

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/5VcSwejU2D0" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

 

[Old Pio]

Re: Rampage in Colorado Movie theater.

Unconfirmed media report that the Aurora shooter's shrink alerted the "threat assessment team" at CU. Evidently nothing was done. Just like for Woo Tang Clan at VTU and Loughner in Tucson. How many people have to be gunned down by these crazies before we get our collective act together?

http://content.usatoday.com/communi...es-psychiatrist-alerted-schools-threat-team/1

 

[Almington]

Re: Rampage in Colorado Movie theater.

Unconfirmed media report that the Aurora shooter's shrink alerted the "threat assessment team" at CU. Evidently nothing was done. Just like for Woo Tang Clan at VTU and Loughner in Tucson. How many people have to be gunned down by these crazies before we get our collective act together?

http://content.usatoday.com/communi...es-psychiatrist-alerted-schools-threat-team/1

What would you want them to do? The requirements for contacting the police are much higher than for the staff at the university to discuss how to help a student through what appears to be a tough situation. We don't know why she contacted the other team members, but it wasn't enough to place a 72 hr psychiatric on him. Once he left the university, the BETA team didn't have any way to help him. It's easy to look back and say "they should have known more" in hindsight but it's difficult to put all the information together and how many people have mental health problems but don't go on a mass shooting spree let alone harm anyone.

 

[Old Pio]

Re: Rampage in Colorado Movie theater.

What would you want them to do? The requirements for contacting the police are much higher than for the staff at the university to discuss how to help a student through what appears to be a tough situation. We don't know why she contacted the other team members, but it wasn't enough to place a 72 hr psychiatric on him. Once he left the university, the BETA team didn't have any way to help him. It's easy to look back and say "they should have known more" in hindsight but it's difficult to put all the information together and how many people have mental health problems but don't go on a mass shooting spree let alone harm anyone.

Then why the fook have a "Crisis Intervention Team" in the first place? That is exactly the type of thinking that let that little Korean nutbar loose at VTU and allowed Loughner to shoot the Congressman and kill all those folks in Tucson. Admittedly it's a pretty small sample size. But it doesn't seem like the ultra-legalistic approach is working, does it? And I'm curious to know if the "BETA" team was formed in reaction to the slaughter at VTU.

The thing to do here, instead of trying to figure out how we can deal more effectively with these barking moonbats, is to continue to offer excuses for the failures of the system and the people who work in it. Yeah, that's the ticket.

 

[joecct]

Re: Rampage in Colorado Movie theater.

And then, folks is the fine state of Maryland, a wholly owned subsidiary of the Democratic Party, where if you threaten via the phone to kill everyone, it's only a misdemeanor.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs...mass-shooting/2012/08/01/gJQAk4bJPX_blog.html

 

[Old Pio]

Re: Rampage in Colorado Movie theater.

And then, folks is the fine state of Maryland, a wholly owned subsidiary of the Democratic Party, where if you threaten via the phone to kill everyone, it's only a misdemeanor.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs...mass-shooting/2012/08/01/gJQAk4bJPX_blog.html

No serious person disagrees with the notion that in terms of forced commitment, we should err on the side of the individual. We don't want to be like the Soviet Union, where mental hospitals were part of the Gulag. But in the case of that clown in Maryland the relevant laws should be strengthened and the maximum punishment handed down. This isn't "cute," especially coming so close on the heels of the slaughter in Aurora. Cops and first responders have to take these kinds of threats at face value. Hammer this clown into guava. Maybe the next idiot will think twice.

 

[5mn_Major]

Re: Rampage in Colorado Movie theater.

No serious person disagrees with the notion that in terms of forced commitment, we should err on the side of the individual. We don't want to be like the Soviet Union, where mental hospitals were part of the Gulag. But in the case of that clown in Maryland the relevant laws should be strengthened and the maximum punishment handed down. This isn't "cute," especially coming so close on the heels of the slaughter in Aurora. Cops and first responders have to take these kinds of threats at face value. Hammer this clown into guava. Maybe the next idiot will think twice.

Ya...tough one. You have a threat which all by itself hurts society...vs. free speech and imprisonment without an actual crime.

I guess I would err on the side of not handing out a misdemeanor...but instead turn that penalty into a thorough background investigation and automatic search warrant which may turn up other prosecutable criminal activities.

 

[joecct]

Re: Rampage in Colorado Movie theater.

Ya...tough one. You have a threat which all by itself hurts society...vs. free speech and imprisonment without an actual crime.

I guess I would err on the side of not handing out a misdemeanor...but instead turn that penalty into a thorough background investigation and automatic search warrant which may turn up other prosecutable criminal activities.

Isn't that fishing for a crime when one may not exist? Why not just torture the poor guy until he admits to High Treason?

 

[Almington]

Re: Rampage in Colorado Movie theater.

Then why the fook have a "Crisis Intervention Team" in the first place? That is exactly the type of thinking that let that little Korean nutbar loose at VTU and allowed Loughner to shoot the Congressman and kill all those folks in Tucson. Admittedly it's a pretty small sample size. But it doesn't seem like the ultra-legalistic approach is working, does it? And I'm curious to know if the "BETA" team was formed in reaction to the slaughter at VTU.

The thing to do here, instead of trying to figure out how we can deal more effectively with these barking moonbats, is to continue to offer excuses for the failures of the system and the people who work in it. Yeah, that's the ticket.

From what I understand, the BETA is in place to ensure that there exists a structure so that people at the school have a place to go if they have a problem and ensure that they get support, to try and prevent people and issues from falling through the cracks. It seems that it DID work in this case, except that the person in question left school before they could do anything, if he had not left school things may have ended differently.

These type of things are mental health issues and that is going to be the only effective way to deal with them. The current system give the individual the strongest protection until the individual displays some definitive danger to others. Sadly this means that in hindsight it is obvious that the individual was troubled, what isn'tis clear how to discriminate between those that will act from those that display similar traits/symptoms and will never act.

In this case, it's clear that the stress of graduate school was taking a toll and his failed oral exam was the "trigger" that set him down the path that resulted in so much suffering and sadness for innocent people.

No system can be made that will completely prevent something like this without completely trampling on an individual's rights and privacy.

 

[5mn_Major]

Re: Rampage in Colorado Movie theater.

Isn't that fishing for a crime when one may not exist?

Not a strong opinion on my part...just an idea that crossed my mind.

Perhaps, probable cause?

 

[Old Pio]

Re: Rampage in Colorado Movie theater.

From what I understand, the BETA is in place to ensure that there exists a structure so that people at the school have a place to go if they have a problem and ensure that they get support, to try and prevent people and issues from falling through the cracks. It seems that it DID work in this case, except that the person in question left school before they could do anything, if he had not left school things may have ended differently.

These type of things are mental health issues and that is going to be the only effective way to deal with them. The current system give the individual the strongest protection until the individual displays some definitive danger to others. Sadly this means that in hindsight it is obvious that the individual was troubled, what isn'tis clear how to discriminate between those that will act from those that display similar traits/symptoms and will never act.

In this case, it's clear that the stress of graduate school was taking a toll and his failed oral exam was the "trigger" that set him down the path that resulted in so much suffering and sadness for innocent people.

No system can be made that will completely prevent something like this without completely trampling on an individual's rights and privacy.

A stunningly firm grasp of the obvious. You're right. There's nothing we can do to identify and drop a net over these people. So we shouldn't even try. Perfect. You plan to continue your defense of the indefensible by referring to Holmes' time line? How much advance notice do these people need before they spring into action? Weeks? Months? How hard is it to call the public health authorities? "Not my yob, man."

He evidently sent a detailed outline of his plans to the shrink, she in turn, notified the vaunted BETA team, which in turn, did nothing. Only in a parallel universe would anyone describe as having "worked" a system which left bodies stacked like cordwood.

 

[Old Pio]

Re: Rampage in Colorado Movie theater.

Ya...tough one. You have a threat which all by itself hurts society...vs. free speech and imprisonment without an actual crime.

I guess I would err on the side of not handing out a misdemeanor...but instead turn that penalty into a thorough background investigation and automatic search warrant which may turn up other prosecutable criminal activities.

No freedom is without limits. Does yelling "fire" in a crowded theatre ring any bells?

 

[Almington]

Re: Rampage in Colorado Movie theater.

A stunningly firm grasp of the obvious. You're right. There's nothing we can do to identify and drop a net over these people. So we shouldn't even try. Perfect. You plan to continue your defense of the indefensible by referring to Holmes' time line? How much advance notice do these people need before they spring into action? Weeks? Months?

He evidently sent a detailed outline of his plans to the shrink, she in turn, notified the vaunted BETA team, which in turn, did nothing.

What matter isn't time, but information. A person must present a clear danger to themselves or others before their confidential medical records can be released.

An outline that was only discovered AFTER the event (that said, what he sent has not been officially released) so it seems unfair to judge them for not taking action on information that they did not know.

If anyone at the university had known what he was going to do, they would have taken action. Because they didn't take action they didn't know that ANY act of violence was imminent or even likely.

What do you propose, that every student who seeks mental health counseling at college for depression and anxiety gets rounded up and institutionalized? That any of the 50% of students who leave graduate school without graduating be forced to undergo a psychiatric exit screening? How to you propose stopping those that will act while not trampling on the individual liberties and rights of everyone else?

 

[Old Pio]

Re: Rampage in Colorado Movie theater.

What matter isn't time, but information. A person must present a clear danger to themselves or others before their confidential medical records can be released.

An outline that was only discovered AFTER the event (that said, what he sent has not been officially released) so it seems unfair to judge them for not taking action on information that they did not know.

If anyone at the university had known what he was going to do, they would have taken action. Because they didn't take action they didn't know that ANY act of violence was imminent or even likely.

What do you propose, that every student who seeks mental health counseling at college for depression and anxiety gets rounded up and institutionalized? That any of the 50% of students who leave graduate school without graduating be forced to undergo a psychiatric exit screening? How to you propose stopping those that will act while not trampling on the individual liberties and rights of everyone else?

Please spare me your ultra-legalisms. That model didn't work, did it? This nutbar evidently sent a detailed exegesis of his plans to a shrink. And because of your legalistic approach, nothing was done. Whether anyone saw his threat or not is unfortunate, but something convinced his shrink to call the BETA team. And if he was no longer on campus, they should have followed up. But they didn't. And you say that was an example of the system "working." Sort of like the underwear bomber.

As I've said now three times, these episodes will keep happening as long as people like you wave their hands and say "nothing can be done." "Protect the rights of the individual, blah, blah, blah." Isn't it at least theoretically possible that a revue of this episode might uncover some course of action that would have prevented the tragedy? But in your world we do nothing, and just supinely accept that Holmes is the price we pay for living in a free society.

I believe people who make detailed threats of carnage in a public space should be investigated, by the cops, public health officials or somebody. We can do a better job than we have been doing without ushering in your doomsday scenario. Why are you so insistent on defending this failure and these incompetents?

This "either/or" scenario you're pushing is unrealistic, fairly juvenile and guaranteed to produce more Holmes.

 

[Almington]

Re: Rampage in Colorado Movie theater.

Please spare me your ultra-legalisms. That model didn't work, did it? This nutbar evidently sent a detailed exegesis of his plans to a shrink. And because of your legalistic approach, nothing was done. Whether anyone saw his threat or not is unfortunate, but something convinced his shrink to call the BETA team. And if he was no longer on campus, they should have followed up. But they didn't. And you say that was an example of the system "working." Sort of like the underwear bomber.

As I've said now three times, these episodes will keep happening as long as people like you wave their hands and say "nothing can be done." "Protect the rights of the individual, blah, blah, blah." Isn't it at least theoretically possible that a revue of this episode might uncover some course of action that would have prevented the tragedy? But in your world we do nothing, and just supinely accept that Holmes is the price we pay for living in a free society.

I believe people who make detailed threats of carnage in a public space should be investigated, by the cops, public health officials or somebody. We can do a better job than we have been doing without ushering in your doomsday scenario. Why are you so insistent on defending this failure and these incompetents?

This "either/or" scenario you're pushing is unrealistic, fairly juvenile and guaranteed to produce more Holmes.

He didn't make any threats that ANYONE knew of before he shot up the theater and killed 12 people. The package was only found AFTER the event. How can anyone investigate something that they don't know about?