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POTUS 46.10: A New Hope

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WeAreNDHockey said:
I honestly believe this country's end is coming, and is likely to happen over the next 2 or 3 cycles of federal elections (mid-terms and presidential, '22, '24, '26). My only question is how violent will the end be?
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What do you mean by "end"?

End of democracy? Possibly. The Right has already already abandoned democracy. They want power, period. Anything in their way is "evil." They are heavily armed and violent. This has all the hallmarks of an attempt by the Right to use democracy in order to destroy democracy. This has happened in many countries in the past:
  • Germany: 1933
  • Austria: 1933
  • Spain: 1930's
  • Brazil: 1964
  • Chile: 1973
  • Russia: 1990s
  • Hungary: 2010s
It absolutely can happen here. Nothing in the Constitution prevents it. If the Right can gain the three branches they can do, literally, anything. The only branch that could stop them is the courts, so if they dominate the courts then all of our democratic principles are just words on a page to be dismissed and reinterpreted by people like Thomas, Alito, and Barrett.


End of the United States of America? Highly unlikely. Frankly, it's just too profitable for too many powerful interests. The disruption would be too great for the ten thousand or so families who actually own the country. I cannot see them allowing it.

A split is a possibility, and perhaps would be the best solution to avoid bloodshed. It would set up a Northern European-like, urban-dominated democracy and an Eastern European-like, rural-dominated feudal state. I suppose after a while we would just use the latter as a dumping ground for polluting industries and a source of cheap, unskilled labor. It doesn't sound like it would be a very stable long-term solution, and having a human rights nightmare on our border would set up a huge immigration crisis of people trying to flee there and likely being held in by some equivalent of a Berlin Wall. We would also have to worry about it being a constant source of state-sponsored terrorism and revanchism. It would be South Africa at best, and an expansionist, militarized, fascist Christian failed state most likely. Alabama would, finally, get the bomb.
 
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Kepler said:
We're in a fight for our lives. It's them or us.
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And who wins when one side wants to vote with reasoned logic, facts, voting and all around common decency while the other side will be fighting with lethal weapons? The amount of firearms being stockpiled by the right is off the charts astounding over the last year and a half.
 
WeAreNDHockey said:
And who wins when one side wants to vote with reasoned logic, facts, voting and all around common decency while the other side will be fighting with lethal weapons? The amount of firearms being stockpiled by the right is off the charts astounding over the last year and a half.
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The army wins. It's not going to be Branch Dildoians mowing down hippies, at least for long. It's going to be the army deployed to counter mass violence by rightwing terrorists.

So it all comes down to, what happens with the army?

The white grunts are them. The POC grunts and the officers are us. Presumably the army eventually just follows its funding. If the civilian leadership is Right and tells them to stand down I can't see them taking a stand for democracy and violating the chain of command. There is just too much institutional risk and too many excuses to hide behind. But, conversely, if ordered to intervene on behalf of innocent people being massacred by rightwing thugs, I can't see them revolting either, since that would cut off the spigot.
 
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Kepler said:
The white grunts are them. The POC grunts and the officers are us.
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More and more the senior non-coms and the officers will be them, not us. Right now some are still with us, but people don't live forever. More and more people who are making enlisted careers are going to be them. Same with the officer corps. O-1s, 2s and 3s today are far more into the cult of trump that you seem to want to believe. Same with the enlisted who are currently moving from the midlevel ranks into the senior ranks. Why anyone believes differently is a mystery to me. Do you also honestly think white police officers who kill unarmed black men simply need better training? People who believe the things about democracy and the ideals of this country like you or I likely do are not joining the military in the numbers you must think they are.
 
WeAreNDHockey said:
More and more the senior non-coms and the officers will be them, not us. Right now some are still with us, but people don't live forever. More and more people who are making enlisted careers are going to be them. Same with the officer corps. O-1s, 2s and 3s today are far more into the cult of trump that you seem to want to believe. Same with the enlisted who are currently moving from the midlevel ranks into the senior ranks. Why anyone believes differently is a mystery to me. Do you also honestly think white police officers who kill unarmed black men simply need better training? People who believe the things about democracy and the ideals of this country like you or I likely do are not joining the military in the numbers you must think they are.
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Everybody from Major down is a grunt and doesn't matter. By "officers" I meant Colonel and above. They are, for the vast majority, us. Not you and me educated us but products of the formal military education system us. And they're the ones who make all the decisions. You aren't going to get some low level officer leading a cult of personality coup d'etat of the US military. We aren't the Central African Republic quite yet.
 
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When do we start losing smart and/or rich people to other countries in any kind of meaningful quantity? That is what concerns me. I’ve definitely thought about where we would go and assume a lot of others have as well.
 
Kepler said:
What do you mean by "end"?

[...]

A split is a possibility, and perhaps would be the best solution to avoid bloodshed. It would set up a Northern European-like, urban-dominated democracy and an Eastern European-like, rural-dominated feudal state. I suppose after a while we would just use the latter as a dumping ground for polluting industries and a source of cheap, unskilled labor. It doesn't sound like it would be a very stable long-term solution, and having a human rights nightmare on our border would set up a huge immigration crisis of people trying to flee there and likely being held in by some equivalent of a Berlin Wall. We would also have to worry about it being a constant source of state-sponsored terrorism and revanchism. It would be South Africa at best, and an expansionist, militarized, fascist Christian failed state most likely. Alabama would, finally, get the bomb.
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While I'm more than happy to break off from the Christian Taliban, the "red states" have a majority of the national park land that I'd like to protect against pollution and development.

Can we just round them up and give them the southeast again?
 
The Framers did not establish safeguards against the possibility that national-party solidarity would transcend state boundaries because they did not imagine such a thing was possible. Nor did they foresee that members of Congress, and perhaps members of the judicial branch, too, would refuse to check the power of a president from their own party.
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What!!!?? You mean our Founding Fathers weren't all-knowing?

Heresy.
 
Kepler said:
The army wins. It's not going to be Branch Dildoians mowing down hippies, at least for long. It's going to be the army deployed to counter mass violence by rightwing terrorists.

So it all comes down to, what happens with the army?

The white grunts are them. The POC grunts and the officers are us. Presumably the army eventually just follows its funding. If the civilian leadership is Right and tells them to stand down I can't see them taking a stand for democracy and violating the chain of command. There is just too much institutional risk and too many excuses to hide behind. But, conversely, if ordered to intervene on behalf of innocent people being massacred by rightwing thugs, I can't see them revolting either, since that would cut off the spigot.
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Ummm, Michael Flynn and his brother are officers.

Again, I believe you're too optimistic here, and are stating what you want to believe, and not what actually is.
 
So they are still talking about the hundreds of thousands of Chinese soldiers in Canada waiting to invade? My god the amount of stupidity these fuckwits allow themselves to fall for is pretty god damned astounding.

Can you imagine how hard it would be to hide a quarter of a million soldiers just across the border? Can you imagine the logistics of moving them here not to mention housing them, feeding them. training them and preparing them for battle over the course of months? And in all that time no one outside of the Cabal of Trump Cock Knobblers has seen them or heard about them?

I hope they do rise up...cause even the grunts who agree with them will still shoot them.
 
Kepler said:
Everybody from Major down is a grunt and doesn't matter. By "officers" I meant Colonel and above. They are, for the vast majority, us. Not you and me educated us but products of the formal military education system us. And they're the ones who make all the decisions. You aren't going to get some low level officer leading a cult of personality coup d'etat of the US military. We aren't the Central African Republic quite yet.
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And the colonels are obviously some of the oldest officers, while Lt. Colonel (Commander in the Navy) is the rank that actually sees the most retirees generally in any given year. The bat-5h!t crazy younger officers will be the colonels at some point not too far distant.

And it isn't just the people in the military we need to be concerned with. It is your neighbors. The growing number of people who are willing to commit political violence is growing by leaps and bounds. Do you honestly think all of the crap we have seen is just for show? Trust me it isn't. I won't even go to a range anymore because I am tired of the idiots who I encounter. Not as in "I'm to stupid to understand trigger discipline." I'm talking about the fact that 95% of them see me as their sworn enemy because I believe in facts and don't believe Biden stole the election. I literally fear for my own personal safety should anyone suspect I'm not "one of them" (in their eyes). I'm just not comfortable around those people anymore. A co-worker told me he felt the same way about going to his range in Northwest Ohio where he lives because he has a Biden sticker on his car.
 
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WeAreNDHockey said:
And the colonels are obviously some of the oldest officers, while Lt. Colonel (Commander in the Navy) is the rank that actually sees the most retirees generally in any given year. The bat-5h!t crazy younger officers will be the colonels at some point not too far distant.
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No, they won't, because the establishment controls promotion and those crazy fuckstains aren't getting their birds. The forces completely understand that the military is an iceberg with a fraction of intelligence sitting atop a mountain of derp. The competent, sane people get promoted while the dirtbags stall. That's been the way it has been in the military for the last seventy years.


A co-worker told me he felt the same way about going to his range in Northwest Ohio where he lives because he has a Biden sticker on his car.
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In all seriousness I would either remove that sticker or stop going. I don't trust the average sh*t-for-brains Republican anymore.
 
aparch said:
While I'm more than happy to break off from the Christian Taliban, the "red states" have a majority of the national park land that I'd like to protect against pollution and development.

Can we just round them up and give them the southeast again?
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They can have the Baptists, we'll keep the Mormons. The latter are better looking and adorably naive.
 
I didn’t get all the details but apparently as part of the defense spending bill there is money to combat extremism in the military.
 
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