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POTUS 45.6 - Russia Is Just A Witch Hunt

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Re: POTUS 45.6 - Russia Is Just A Witch Hunt

Wisko McBadgerton said:
Being in SW Florida I have quite a few friends, neighbors, and acquaintances who are 1st/2nd gen from Mexico, Central & South America, Cuba, and the Islands. As a group I can't say how they all voted, but I can say that as a group, (except maybe Argentinians) they are not socially liberal in the American sense at all.
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Which tracks with how they went overall in the last election (though Mexicans elsewhere seemed to go Left over immigration concerns) and definitely does not track with how many feel they would be voting. This is what I have been saying every time someone talks about "demographic shifts".

Just because the population is getting younger (or I should say the old guard GOPers are dying off) doesnt mean the young are going to vote Left. Even if you assume they are learned on political issues (and they arent hence why a bunch of Spring Breakers in Mexico were chanting "Build the Wall" last week) they arent just going to vote what the stats say they will. If that was the case voting trends wouldnt stagnate. Just because the Left fights for Women's Rights doesnt mean all women will vote that way...and not just cause they think Women should be second class either. Until the Dems accept that and work with it they will never truly experience any sort of Demographic push to their party.
 
Re: POTUS 45.6 - Russia Is Just A Witch Hunt

Kepler said:
No. Florida Cubans have always been Republicans. They're reactionary French nobility in exile during the Revolution and they want their Batista Era estates and serfs back. That's one reason the other Latinos can't stand them.
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And the other Latinos that voted Trump? The Muslims? The Women? The Blacks? The Gays? The Jews? The poor? The Middle Class? How will you disparage them and make them seem "less than" so they meet up with your world view?

(and yes that is exactly what you are doing and it is exactly why people hate "Elitism" when it comes to Liberals)
 
Re: POTUS 45.6 - Russia Is Just A Witch Hunt

alfablue said:
Yes, but. Pretty much all of the items you say people are tired about hearing about are items that Republicans have tried to tighten the control of over, or outright ban. As a society, we had gotten into kind of a stalemate in terms of gay and trans rights- and all of a sudden, anti-gay marriage things popped up all over the country. Which thrust the issue into the lime light, and ended in a pretty inevitable ending at the SCOTUS. Or, as the case is for trans rights- has lead to NC being boycotted by a number of groups- most recently noted the NCAA's regional tournament that should have been there over the weekend.

BLM- that's just because minorities are tired of getting the brunt of wrong police action- be it shooting or treated wrong. That bubble was going to burst at some point, and I'm kind of surprised that Hispanics have not joined into that fight. Again, the whole war on drugs, "rule of law" kind of trend came from Republicans.

And the recent Muslim actions speak for themselves.

So, pretty much across the board- all of the current social issues that are being played out, that people are tired of, that you want to not talk about- are started because of restrictions put down by Republicans.

How can we not speak up against that?

Unless it's a massive distraction to keep the general electorate on one side or the other.

To me, the problem is that there are SO many new issues that the economic issues that Democrats DO talk about get completely missed. Of they have already changed the channel.

We can't sit back and let one side restrict people's rights. Heck, any time gun control is brought up, the NRA is there in spades.
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Good points all, yes. Speaking out against racial bigotry or the poisoning of the environment is incumbent upon all thinking people.

But the truth is, most people who believe deeply in economic justice -- livable wages, the right to organize, and a tax system that is fair to people who earn their income through labor -- also are generally supportive of other progressive causes. But people care most deeply about their own personal economic situations. Especially the middle and working classes, which make up the vast majority of the population. Throw the working poor in there and suddenly you are talking about 95% of America, if not more.

When I am speaking to a white working class voter on Cleveland's west side or in the western suburbs, he's worried almost exclusively about how he's going to support his family when the last decent blue collar jobs appear to be on the chopping block. But all he hears on the local media is appeals to Black Lives Matter, or trans-rights, or immigration reform and paths to citizenship. He doesn't care about those things because he -- like most of us -- spends a lot of time thinking about his family first. It isn't as if he supports oppressing people because of where they want to take a leak. But he hears that and thinks "What about my family?" Democratic candidates, especially Hillary this time around, did not speak AT ALL to white working class voters. Millions of people felt shut out. Trump lied to them, sure, but he spoke to them.

Obama won in large part because he did speak to these issues. Of course we were in the midst of an economic crisis that without the social safety net of food stamps, unemployment insurance or Medicaid, would have actually been far worse than the great depression and he had no choice. Much like a wartime president the economy, especially I his first term, required so much focus. But people have been left behind now in this economy for more than a generation. It boiled over in 2016.

Elect people who care about economic justice and once those issues begin to settle down, so will much of the rest of the problems progressive spread themselves too thin trying to address. Coupled with that, people will have more time to think about the rest of society. If you know you have a secure financial future, perhaps you have more energy and time to devote to thinking about how to leave a better and more just world for your kids.
 
Re: POTUS 45.6 - Russia Is Just A Witch Hunt

Handyman said:
And the other Latinos that voted Trump? The Muslims? The Women? The Blacks? The Gays? The Jews? The poor? The Middle Class? How will you disparage them and make them seem "less than" so they meet up with your world view?

(and yes that is exactly what you are doing and it is exactly why people hate "Elitism" when it comes to Liberals)
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I have literally no idea what you're talking about. As I said somewhere yesterday, sometimes charges of "elitism" just amount to the drunk at last call slurring "you wanna start somethin'?"
 
Re: POTUS 45.6 - Russia Is Just A Witch Hunt

WeAreNDHockey said:
Good points all, yes. Speaking out against racial bigotry or the poisoning of the environment is incumbent upon all thinking people.

But the truth is, most people who believe deeply in economic justice -- livable wages, the right to organize, and a tax system that is fair to people who earn their income through labor -- also are generally supportive of other progressive causes. But people care most deeply about their own personal economic situations. Especially the middle and working classes, which make up the vast majority of the population. Throw the working poor in there and suddenly you are talking about 95% of America, if not more.

When I am speaking to a white working class voter on Cleveland's west side or in the western suburbs, he's worried almost exclusively about how he's going to support his family when the last decent blue collar jobs appear to be on the chopping block. But all he hears on the local media is appeals to Black Lives Matter, or trans-rights, or immigration reform and paths to citizenship. He doesn't care about those things because he -- like most of us -- spends a lot of time thinking about his family first. It isn't as if he supports oppressing people because of where they want to take a leak. But he hears that and thinks "What about my family?" Democratic candidates, especially Hillary this time around, did not speak AT ALL to white working class voters. Millions of people felt shut out. Trump lied to them, sure, but he spoke to them.

Obama won in large part because he did speak to these issues. Of course we were in the midst of an economic crisis that without the social safety net of food stamps, unemployment insurance or Medicaid, would have actually been far worse than the great depression and he had no choice. Much like a wartime president the economy, especially I his first term, required so much focus. But people have been left behind now in this economy for more than a generation. It boiled over in 2016.

Elect people who care about economic justice and once those issues begin to settle down, so will much of the rest of the problems progressive spread themselves too thin trying to address. Coupled with that, people will have more time to think about the rest of society. If you know you have a secure financial future, perhaps you have more energy and time to devote to thinking about how to leave a better and more just world for your kids.
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I understand the requirement to speak to those who have been economically harmed.

My point is that it's impossible to not bring up these other items because republicans constantly try to morally or socially change the laws, making large groups of people harmed WRT rights.

The whole reason the items are in the headlines are because of active abuses. That's it.

The real problem, as I see it, is that people ONLY see those references, and they don't want to hear the economic references that are also being brought up. And even when those references are brought up, they hear what they want to hear.

Obama had an easier time focusing on the big picture- as many of the items that surfaced happened very recently. He didn't really need to address them, other than a passing- "we plan on doing something".

Trump also attacked many of the items- primarily immigration. With a LOT of reply from both sides. Again, Hillary had no choice but to address it.

don was hailed (and cursed) for speaking his mind, but Hillary was ignored for the same subjects.
 
Re: POTUS 45.6 - Russia Is Just A Witch Hunt

Wonder how Flag's gonna take it if it turns out InfoWars and Breitbart are Russian sock puppets?

The FBI’s Counterintelligence Division is looking into the role far-right news sites including Breitbart, InfoWars and the Kremlin-backed RT might have played in Russia’s influence campaign during the U.S. presidential election, McClatchy reported Monday.

Automated computer bots strategically deployed unabashedly pro-Trump articles, which often contained falsehoods, from those sites on social media at moments when Trump’s campaign was flagging, anonymous FBI sources told McClatchy. The probe reportedly is looking at whether those publications willingly coordinated with Russian operatives in promoting their stories.

The inquiry is part of the FBI’s comprehensive investigation into Russia’s interference in the 2016 election, which Director James Comey confirmed Monday is also looking into any potential ties between Trump’s campaign staffers and Russian officials.
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Re: POTUS 45.6 - Russia Is Just A Witch Hunt

Deutsche Gopher Fan said:
Devices larger than laptops now banned to 8 countries, including turkey.
My Turkish friend is about to board a flight to Istanbul with his 3 kids under age of 5. No iPads, etc allowed. The kids will deal- but I'm worried about his re entry home at this point despite his US passport.
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Devices larger than smartphones...laptops are not allowed. The UK is considering something similar.

Medical devices and flight crews are exempt.
 
Re: POTUS 45.6 - Russia Is Just A Witch Hunt

Kepler said:
I have literally no idea what you're talking about. As I said somewhere yesterday, sometimes charges of "elitism" just amount to the drunk at last call slurring "you wanna start somethin'?"
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You just said that the Cubans that voted for Trump were a bunch wannabe nobles trying to hold down their serfs...you dont think that makes you sound like a judgemental jerk?

No. Florida Cubans have always been Republicans. They're reactionary French nobility in exile during the Revolution and they want their Batista Era estates and serfs back. That's one reason the other Latinos can't stand them.
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Elitism as most people see it, is people who act like anyone who votes contrary to how they view the world are not only mistaken, but are stupid/unworthy because of it. Your comment about the Cubans is just that. You dismiss other people's votes and judge them based on nothing but your own opinion...you dont know why they voted as they did because I bet you didnt actually ask one of them.

Now I know that is not how you mean it to sound, but to the average person that is EXACTLY how it sounds and that is why people get annoyed by the East Coast Elite. There is nothing inherently wrong with being smart or elitist...but you need to understand that not everyone who is offended by it is some raving loony either.
 
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Re: POTUS 45.6 - Russia Is Just A Witch Hunt

Handyman said:
You just said that the Cubans that voted for Trump were a bunch wannabe nobles trying to hold down their serfs...you dont think that makes you sound like a judgemental jerk?
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I didn't say "wanna be." There are tons of well-heeled Cubans who have bankrolled the Republicans ever since the Bay of Pigs turned them off the Dems. They were (now, their parents / grandparents were) the real thing: huge landowners who virtually enslaved the rural Cuban population and made things bad enough that even with a lapdog Pinochet-like government and a huge US anti-Commie bankroll, a piker like Fidel just sashayed in. Then those suddenly ex-PTB guys hightailed it out on the last copter and set up shop in Florida, and did everything they could to get back to Candy Mountain, primarily by cultivating rightwing wackjob pols. They're Romanovs in exile. It's not a diminution -- it's a fact.

But you asked about something relevant, which is all the other groups who were supposed to go straight ticket Dem but either stayed home or voted for the Dumpster. I have no good answer about them, but I haven't seen the real data on them yet, either. If you've got that please share it -- I'd like to know what percentage of blacks, Mexicans, Central Americans, and Muslims really did vote for Trump, and how those numbers compare with Romney in 2012.
 
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Re: POTUS 45.6 - Russia Is Just A Witch Hunt

Jimjamesak said:
I imagine this has more to do with problems with lithium batteries than anything else.
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That might be part of it, but it sounds like there is more of a specific type of terroristic threat associated with it. It is also only from these 10 airports, including if you are connecting through them. US carriers are not affected.

Queen Alia International Airport (AMM)
Cairo International Airport (CAI)
Ataturk International Airport (IST)
King Abdul-Aziz International Airport (JED)
King Khalid International Airport (RUH)
Kuwait International Airport (KWI)
Mohammed V Airport (CMN)
Hamad International Airport (DOH)
Dubai International Airport (DXB)
Abu Dhabi International Airport (AUH)
 
Re: POTUS 45.6 - Russia Is Just A Witch Hunt

Handyman said:
Elitism as most people see it, is people who act like anyone who votes contrary to how they view the world are not only mistaken, but are stupid/unworthy because of it.
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I'll agree with that.

Your comment about the Cubans is just that.
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Nope. See my immediately prior post.

You dismiss other people's votes and judge them based on nothing but your own opinion...you dont know why they voted as they did because I bet you didnt actually ask one of them.

Now I know that is not how you mean it to sound, but to the average person that is EXACTLY how it sounds and that is why people get annoyed by the East Coast Elite. There is nothing inherently wrong with being smart or elitist...but you need to understand that not everyone who is offended by it is some raving loony either.
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I may not succeed, but I try to make it really clear when I'm being deliberately "elitist." I do that (knowingly, anyway) only when it turns out the elitist position is also factual.

But even then, many facts that people recoil from as "elitist" aren't that at all. Best example: the What's the Matter with Kansas thesis that poor social conservatives in the Midwest are killing themselves economically by voting Republican. That's actually a real thing. It's not politically correct to say that poor people who vote Republican to try to improve their lot are ignorant, but it's true -- Republican fiscal policy exists for only one reason: shovel as much money as fast as possible to their wealthy donors. No other consideration is anything but window-dressing. So if poor Midwesterners are voting Republican for the economy, they're ignorant of American history.

If OTOH they are deliberately casting a vote for their religious values and knowingly taking an economic hit, saying in effect that is less important than their immortal souls, that's not ignorant at all, though I'd point out it's pretty hard on their children.

Conservatives yammer about "political correctness" but there is rightwing political correctness as well, wrapped in the flag, carrying a cross, and with Mom's gooey ice cream dripping all over it. At least I hope that's ice cream. They protect their snowflakes -- the uneducated, active duty soldiers (veterans they f-ck over), and religious fundamentalists -- and scream like little girls if you have the temerity to point out facts like, for example, the uneducated tend to be ignorant of the causal relationship between Republican policies and their own worsening economic situation.

A fact is never elitist.
 
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Re: POTUS 45.6 - Russia Is Just A Witch Hunt

Kepler said:
Wonder how Flag's gonna take it if it turns out InfoWars and Breitbart are Russian sock puppets?
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ScoobyDoo said:
That would be too awesome. It's too much to hope for.
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flaggy is not capable of reflecting upon what he thinks because he does not think for himself. There is no contemplation there.

He is T.S. Elliot's "ragged claws scuttling across the floors of silent seas."
 
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