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POTUS 45:52: Not Founded On Anything

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Re: POTUS 45:52: Not Founded On Anything

I care deeply but think we are completely f’ed. Maybe because of that I get frustrated that we’ve wasted two years on the Trump stuff when we face serious problems. The economy and environment are a hell of a lot more important than how corrupt Trump is.

I agree with the majority of the people on here that the modern day right is awful, but that doesn’t mean the modern left is good or has the ability to solve our immense challenges. I hope some day our country comes good, it just seems like we are a long way away from that right now.

The fact that the president is clearly compromised to a host of foreign countries is a serious problem.
 
Re: POTUS 45:52: Not Founded On Anything

The thing is, Drew and Sic (and Bob Gray before them) definitely still do think so it becomes a question of why they don't care. This question has become more and more interesting to me over the last few years. I am starting to think (or, I should say, believe, as will become apparent) that it is actually literally true that we are not rational beings and that all rationality is a cloak we throw on after the fact. We hold certain beliefs, full stop. Where they come from is a separate question. We then circle back around and "discover" our beliefs to be rationally justified. Not cynically; we simply have no way of concluding otherwise. So we conclude we decided from the facts and now hold that conclusion provisionally until it can be disproven. That's the way Aristotle and Locke and Kant said correctly functioning humans work, even as they disagreed about the source of the facts (actual nature, our sensory interpretation of stimulae, a priori categories of understanding in our minds, respectively).

But maybe we don't. Maybe we never actually reason at all. What if everything I believe I believe for non-rational reasons (upbringing, mentoring, bigotry, unfamiliarity, whim, randomness)? This is what I've observed in many other people over a long period of time, so I have no trouble with the possibility that this can happen to a person. What if it is the fundamental and unavoidable nature of every person?

I have hitherto rejected anti-rationalist philosophy as being a blind recoil against the dehumanization by bureaucracy and technology (Rousseau) or the erosion of faith by reason (Augustine) by emotional reactionaries, and indeed some of it seems to be just that. As a rationalist my conclusion was the world was divided into smarties who reasoned from evidence to belief and dummies who were led by irrationality from belief to selection of evidence.

But what if we are all dummies?

Does it change anything? We still are in the world and we still have to function, and we still believe what we believe and we still find it to be rational for whatever reason. I will still defend my beliefs and try to work for what I perceive to be rational ends -- I don't see how the removal of the actual rational basis of my decisions has to lead to paralysis or angst (perhaps I am simply not French).

Let's assume it doesn't change anything about what we should do in the world -- we should still be agents of the change we wish to see. How does this affect how we go about doing that? For one thing it sure seems to be easier now for me to approach Drew or Sic because while, yes, it's true they are dummies, so am I so I don't have anything to be all that frustrated about.

How can we dummies interact with one another usefully? I'm ruling out violence and let's in fact rule out all the behaviors we traditionally call immoral: forms of trickery, coercion, just general not niceness. We can talk to each other politely. We can be mutually respectful in the clear light of recognition that we are all mutually stupid. That conversation and friendliness then becomes a lever to change their minds (or my own), depending on how our beliefs are actually acquired.

Under rationalism, the mission was: how do you convince people who have come to untrue conclusions that they are untrue? Under irrationalism that result is unlikely*. But it becomes eminently possible to change people's beliefs if we understand how beliefs are formed. That becomes the program.


* It is still theoretically possible to convince somebody strictly on matters of new facts but I doubt it is likely because beliefs are so strong they resist contrary facts.

I'm pretty sure you having this thought invalidates the thought...
Further, ruling out trickery makes absolutely no sense, as that is how most of these moronic thoughts have been formed. They have been programmed for decades by Rush, Fox etc. Just look at the stupidity Drew just posted.
 
Re: POTUS 45:52: Not Founded On Anything

Further, ruling out trickery makes absolutely no sense, as that is how most of these moronic thoughts have been formed. They have been programmed for decades by Rush, Fox etc. Just look at the stupidity Drew just posted.

Therein lies the ethical dilemma: do two wrongs make a right? Sadly, perhaps, I come down on the naive side -- no. But I'm only one man. I'm sure we have no shortage of tricksters on our side.

Barry Goldwater was wrong and his message is the clarion call of revenge, not law:

Tolerance in the face of tyranny is no virtue. Extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice. And moderation in the pursuit of justice is no virtue. Moderation in the protection of liberty is no virtue; extremism in the defense of freedom is no vice.

That's what gives you Gina Haspel and John Bolton.
 
Re: POTUS 45:52: Not Founded On Anything

But you alone are allowed such.

Well, not me alone but people who argue in a way I regard as rational which tends to be biased towards those who agree with me since if I didn't find their opinions rational I wouldn't share them.

And that would have followed, logically, if people were rational, for everyone who found counter-arguments to be not just wrong on the facts (ignorant) but wrong on the rational decision process (stupid).

But if we're all not using reason except as an after-the-fact rationalization, and if we're all only choosing or emphasizing the facts that support our argument, then we aren't scientists, we're something else -- prophets, entertainers, clowns -- and the effective way for us to convince each other is something that has nothing to do with facts or reason. Maybe it's charm. Maybe it's tribalism.
 
Re: POTUS 45:52: Not Founded On Anything

For me part of how I formed my beliefs (used to be libertarian) was that I read other message boards and saw them constantly getting dunked on by others and some people had the patience to break down their arguments and show exactly why they're illogical. I suppose I could've just stubbornly kept those beliefs in the face of all evidence but eventually I had to reconcile the fact that I'm either thinking rationally and can debate these guys or I can't and maybe those people are right.

Not everyone is capable of this though especially when they've been duped by what's basically a cult/pyramid scheme (frauddy being an obvious example but people like Drew/Sica uncritically regurgitating Rush's talking points isn't much better). At the very least two of those guys are willing to hear other viewpoints and engage on a message board so some credit where it's due. It's not like the Republicans here are the only ones who do it either.
I care deeply but think we are completely f’ed. Maybe because of that I get frustrated that we’ve wasted two years on the Trump stuff when we face serious problems. The economy and environment are a hell of a lot more important than how corrupt Trump is.
I actually agree with this, though we'd definitely disagree on how to solve it. It's kind of amazing how much the Russia investigation has drowned out coverage of everything else that is far more important, especially when we all know it's never going to amount to any tangible results (Trump being indicted and being forced to leave office specifically, even if that happened Pence is in). I think the investigation was definitely warranted but how the media covered it has been hilariously dumb.
 
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Re: POTUS 45:52: Not Founded On Anything

I agree with the majority of the people on here that the modern day right is awful, but that doesn’t mean the modern left is good or has the ability to solve our immense challenges. I hope some day our country comes good, it just seems like we are a long way away from that right now.

Largely true. The far left and the far right (which is the majority of it) are not likely to have the solutions. Moderation is the answer.

The problem with this set up is that the moderate right's only goal is to stop the moderate left from accomplishing anything (except for periodic tax cuts for the rich).
 
Re: POTUS 45:52: Not Founded On Anything

Both sides give us chocolate bunnies (Trojan horses?) to keep us occupied while it burns down around us.

Oh no, I don't buy bothsiderism at all. There's a definite villain here, and if the Dems aren't a hero they are at least what we have to stop the villain.
 
Re: POTUS 45:52: Not Founded On Anything

It's kind of amazing how much the Russia investigation has drowned out coverage of everything else that is far more important, especially when we all know it's never going to amount to any tangible results (Trump being indicted and being forced to leave office specifically, even if that happened Pence is in). I think the investigation was definitely warranted but how the media covered it has been hilariously dumb.

Remember when Trump was elected and I kept saying we should watch the magician's other hand?
I was thinking Trump would keep buffooning it up (show hand) whilst his minions go off and run amok (magician hand).

Instead the media locked onto < in the voice of Jan from the "Brady Bunch" > "Russia-Russia-Russia!"

Instead of waving around the magician show hand, Trump had to do is stand on stage and keep the hecklers heckling. While the heckled they didn't notice the magician's hand at work.
 
Re: POTUS 45:52: Not Founded On Anything

Remember when Trump was elected and I kept saying we should watch the magician's other hand?
I was thinking Trump would keep buffooning it up (show hand) whilst his minions go off and run amok (magician hand).

Instead the media locked onto < in the voice of Jan from the "Brady Bunch" > "Russia-Russia-Russia!"

Instead of waving around the magician show hand, Trump had to do is stand on stage and keep the hecklers heckling. While the heckled they didn't notice the magician's hand at work.

Trump isn't being a magician, he is being the immature fraud he is and always has been. Were he a good leader of his party, with control of both houses for his first two years, he would have gotten more done than he did. He's done damage, no doubt, but it could have been worse.
 
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Re: POTUS 45:52: Not Founded On Anything

Trump isn't being a magician, he is being the immature fraud he is and always has been.

This. Dump is not strategizing, he's existing. He really is what he appear to be: fool, fraud, jerk, ignoramus. That is what his voters voted for, so they are in large part also that.
 
Re: POTUS 45:52: Not Founded On Anything

He got the big one he wanted: tax reform.

You think he gives a rip about anything else?
For the most part no but that was highly publicized at the time and doesn't really support your theory.

I think what would support it is the lack of coverage on the ongoing situation in PR, Yemen, and some of the other less publicized problems like the stacking of federal judges (and how much of a moron Schumer is).
 
So is this the game? We're going to--just now--start calling undercover investigations "spying" to make them sound more sinister and distract from the fact that the FBI had a legitimate reason to be investigating the campaign's connections to Russia?

Grin. Oh Grin. Humor and sarcasm escapes you. Take a look at my post and look again at the cover photo. Maybe you'll see the (offbeat) humor and sarcasm.

If BHO caused his minions to go after tD in a fit of pique, we have a problem with abuse of power. There are enough malodorous scents coming from rhe last months of the 2016 campaign to make you think you're next to a paper mill.
 
I care deeply but think we are completely f’ed. Maybe because of that I get frustrated that we’ve wasted two years on the Trump stuff when we face serious problems. The economy and environment are a hell of a lot more important than how corrupt Trump is.

I agree with the majority of the people on here that the modern day right is awful, but that doesn’t mean the modern left is good or has the ability to solve our immense challenges. I hope some day our country comes good, it just seems like we are a long way away from that right now.
So if you were offered rides home by a known serial killer and a stranger, you'd pick the serial killer since you can't prove that the stranger is good?

If you care about the economy and the environment and support Republicans, Chrst you're stupid. It's no wonder we're f'ed, when 35% of the country is like you or worse.
 
Re: POTUS 45:52: Not Founded On Anything

Grin. Oh Grin. Humor and sarcasm escapes you. Take a look at my post and look again at the cover photo. Maybe you'll see the (offbeat) humor and sarcasm.

My response was aimed at the Federalist article's use of the word "spying", not your joking use of it.

If BHO caused his minions to go after tD in a fit of pique, we have a problem with abuse of power. There are enough malodorous scents coming from rhe last months of the 2016 campaign to make you think you're next to a paper mill.

Why are you entertaining something that there's zero evidence of? As far as I know, Obama's record of maintaining independence with the DOJ is spotless.
 
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