You’re correct that he has been exonerated by Mueller. As I’ve been saying for awhile it’s time to move on. The investigation has gone nowhere and it’s wasted billions of taxpayer money.
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POTUS 45:52: Not Founded On Anything
- Thread starter French Rage
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You’re correct that he has been exonerated by Mueller. As I’ve been saying for awhile it’s time to move on. The investigation has gone nowhere and it’s wasted billions of taxpayer money.
D
Deutsche Gopher Fan
Guest
Re: POTUS 45:52: Not Founded On Anything
Oh, you’ve seen the unredacted report? Cool
Jesus, go take your meds
Oh, you’ve seen the unredacted report? Cool
Jesus, go take your meds
Re: POTUS 45:52: Not Founded On Anything
Double whoosh for Drew. First Mueller, then DGopher.
Double whoosh for Drew. First Mueller, then DGopher.
French Rage
NICKERSON HAS [CENSORED]
Re: POTUS 45:52: Not Founded On Anything
I'm sure that's an incredibly long line they're joining.
I'm sure that's an incredibly long line they're joining.
duper
Well-known member
Re: POTUS 45:52: Not Founded On Anything
Jesus is America, you silly twit.
I thought it was for Jesus?
Jesus is America, you silly twit.
FadeToBlack&Gold
Microlot Marxist
Re: POTUS 45:52: Not Founded On Anything
1. He was not exonerated. You did not read any of the report, that is very obvious.
2. The Mueller investigation didn't cost "billions", and there's a good chance it broke even, or even made a bit of money. Regardless, some witches were definitely found.
1. He was not exonerated. You did not read any of the report, that is very obvious.
2. The Mueller investigation didn't cost "billions", and there's a good chance it broke even, or even made a bit of money. Regardless, some witches were definitely found.
Re: POTUS 45:52: Not Founded On Anything
.
There was a pol cartoon in the Mpls Star Trib....big choc bunny....
Ds: It's HUGE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Rs: It's HOLLOW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Truth.
.
There was a pol cartoon in the Mpls Star Trib....big choc bunny....
Ds: It's HUGE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Rs: It's HOLLOW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Truth.
rufus
rock and roller
Even the redacted report.
If Mueller had used the standard that the Starr Report had, a preponderance of the evidence, there is no doubt that the Trump campaign had many connections to, and was working alongside the Russians in their electoral interference.
But Mueller used the "prove beyond a reasonable doubt" standard. And, as he wrote in the report, he couldn't reach that level, in part because so many of the Trump team lied in their testimony, pled the Fifth, used encrypted communications, or deleted those communications and emails.
Wrap your tiny mind around that Drew. Members of the Trump administration and campaign deleted their emails relevant to an investigation into their conduct. Remember when that used to be a big thing to you? Evidence of a vast criminal conspiracy? Yeah.
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Re: POTUS 45:52: Not Founded On Anything
The, oh so, funny thing about drew and people just like him- he claims to vote R, in spite of actual statements where R's have never done any of the things they say they will do for them AND that D's have never done the things that R's say that they will.
How in the world thinking caps totally went away is beyond me- but until people like drew figure out that voting R is against what they actually want (and I'm not even talking their best interest, but what they think they want for the country) we will just keep going down this path. And if people like drew get offended by it, tough. People like you don't care about "political correctness"- so your feelings are just as meaningless as you treat others.
Defending dumpy by claiming that this whole thing is over just points out that thinking is not a priority for virtually all R voters.
(here's a good one to ponder- lets assume that barr didn't lie, but recall many of his answers- much of which were boiled down to "I didn't understand the question" and "I don't remember". If you have a memory or comprehension problem, doesn't that disqualify you as being a lawyer, let alone THE Attorney General of the United States? Just like dumpy's minions who were to stupid to know (which is obvious to me) that russian calls to people in the US are tapped. Because Russia. But people have stopped thinking so much that none of that is even considered. Even by people here, like Sic)
The, oh so, funny thing about drew and people just like him- he claims to vote R, in spite of actual statements where R's have never done any of the things they say they will do for them AND that D's have never done the things that R's say that they will.
How in the world thinking caps totally went away is beyond me- but until people like drew figure out that voting R is against what they actually want (and I'm not even talking their best interest, but what they think they want for the country) we will just keep going down this path. And if people like drew get offended by it, tough. People like you don't care about "political correctness"- so your feelings are just as meaningless as you treat others.
Defending dumpy by claiming that this whole thing is over just points out that thinking is not a priority for virtually all R voters.
(here's a good one to ponder- lets assume that barr didn't lie, but recall many of his answers- much of which were boiled down to "I didn't understand the question" and "I don't remember". If you have a memory or comprehension problem, doesn't that disqualify you as being a lawyer, let alone THE Attorney General of the United States? Just like dumpy's minions who were to stupid to know (which is obvious to me) that russian calls to people in the US are tapped. Because Russia. But people have stopped thinking so much that none of that is even considered. Even by people here, like Sic)
Kepler
Si certus es dubita
Re: POTUS 45:52: Not Founded On Anything
The thing is, Drew and Sic (and Bob Gray before them) definitely still do think so it becomes a question of why they don't care. This question has become more and more interesting to me over the last few years. I am starting to think (or, I should say, believe, as will become apparent) that it is actually literally true that we are not rational beings and that all rationality is a cloak we throw on after the fact. We hold certain beliefs, full stop. Where they come from is a separate question. We then circle back around and "discover" our beliefs to be rationally justified. Not cynically; we simply have no way of concluding otherwise. So we conclude we decided from the facts and now hold that conclusion provisionally until it can be disproven. That's the way Aristotle and Locke and Kant said correctly functioning humans work, even as they disagreed about the source of the facts (actual nature, our sensory interpretation of stimulae, a priori categories of understanding in our minds, respectively).
But maybe we don't. Maybe we never actually reason at all. What if everything I believe I believe for non-rational reasons (upbringing, mentoring, bigotry, unfamiliarity, whim, randomness)? This is what I've observed in many other people over a long period of time, so I have no trouble with the possibility that this can happen to a person. What if it is the fundamental and unavoidable nature of every person?
I have hitherto rejected anti-rationalist philosophy as being a blind recoil against the dehumanization by bureaucracy and technology (Rousseau) or the erosion of faith by reason (Augustine) by emotional reactionaries, and indeed some of it seems to be just that. As a rationalist my conclusion was the world was divided into smarties who reasoned from evidence to belief and dummies who were led by irrationality from belief to selection of evidence.
But what if we are all dummies?
Does it change anything? We still are in the world and we still have to function, and we still believe what we believe and we still find it to be rational for whatever reason. I will still defend my beliefs and try to work for what I perceive to be rational ends -- I don't see how the removal of the actual rational basis of my decisions has to lead to paralysis or angst (perhaps I am simply not French).
Let's assume it doesn't change anything about what we should do in the world -- we should still be agents of the change we wish to see. How does this affect how we go about doing that? For one thing it sure seems to be easier now for me to approach Drew or Sic because while, yes, it's true they are dummies, so am I so I don't have anything to be all that frustrated about.
How can we dummies interact with one another usefully? I'm ruling out violence and let's in fact rule out all the behaviors we traditionally call immoral: forms of trickery, coercion, just general not niceness. We can talk to each other politely. We can be mutually respectful in the clear light of recognition that we are all mutually stupid. That conversation and friendliness then becomes a lever to change their minds (or my own), depending on how our beliefs are actually acquired.
Under rationalism, the mission was: how do you convince people who have come to untrue conclusions that they are untrue? Under irrationalism that result is unlikely*. But it becomes eminently possible to change people's beliefs if we understand how beliefs are formed. That becomes the program.
* It is still theoretically possible to convince somebody strictly on matters of new facts but I doubt it is likely because beliefs are so strong they resist contrary facts.
The thing is, Drew and Sic (and Bob Gray before them) definitely still do think so it becomes a question of why they don't care. This question has become more and more interesting to me over the last few years. I am starting to think (or, I should say, believe, as will become apparent) that it is actually literally true that we are not rational beings and that all rationality is a cloak we throw on after the fact. We hold certain beliefs, full stop. Where they come from is a separate question. We then circle back around and "discover" our beliefs to be rationally justified. Not cynically; we simply have no way of concluding otherwise. So we conclude we decided from the facts and now hold that conclusion provisionally until it can be disproven. That's the way Aristotle and Locke and Kant said correctly functioning humans work, even as they disagreed about the source of the facts (actual nature, our sensory interpretation of stimulae, a priori categories of understanding in our minds, respectively).
But maybe we don't. Maybe we never actually reason at all. What if everything I believe I believe for non-rational reasons (upbringing, mentoring, bigotry, unfamiliarity, whim, randomness)? This is what I've observed in many other people over a long period of time, so I have no trouble with the possibility that this can happen to a person. What if it is the fundamental and unavoidable nature of every person?
I have hitherto rejected anti-rationalist philosophy as being a blind recoil against the dehumanization by bureaucracy and technology (Rousseau) or the erosion of faith by reason (Augustine) by emotional reactionaries, and indeed some of it seems to be just that. As a rationalist my conclusion was the world was divided into smarties who reasoned from evidence to belief and dummies who were led by irrationality from belief to selection of evidence.
But what if we are all dummies?
Does it change anything? We still are in the world and we still have to function, and we still believe what we believe and we still find it to be rational for whatever reason. I will still defend my beliefs and try to work for what I perceive to be rational ends -- I don't see how the removal of the actual rational basis of my decisions has to lead to paralysis or angst (perhaps I am simply not French).
Let's assume it doesn't change anything about what we should do in the world -- we should still be agents of the change we wish to see. How does this affect how we go about doing that? For one thing it sure seems to be easier now for me to approach Drew or Sic because while, yes, it's true they are dummies, so am I so I don't have anything to be all that frustrated about.
How can we dummies interact with one another usefully? I'm ruling out violence and let's in fact rule out all the behaviors we traditionally call immoral: forms of trickery, coercion, just general not niceness. We can talk to each other politely. We can be mutually respectful in the clear light of recognition that we are all mutually stupid. That conversation and friendliness then becomes a lever to change their minds (or my own), depending on how our beliefs are actually acquired.
Under rationalism, the mission was: how do you convince people who have come to untrue conclusions that they are untrue? Under irrationalism that result is unlikely*. But it becomes eminently possible to change people's beliefs if we understand how beliefs are formed. That becomes the program.
* It is still theoretically possible to convince somebody strictly on matters of new facts but I doubt it is likely because beliefs are so strong they resist contrary facts.
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Re: POTUS 45:52: Not Founded On Anything
yes, completely exonerated by the report that specifically said he was not exonerated.
yes, completely exonerated by the report that specifically said he was not exonerated.
The Sicatoka
Kicizapi Cetan
The Sicatoka
Kicizapi Cetan
Kepler
Si certus es dubita
Re: POTUS 45:52: Not Founded On Anything
That's ontology. I'm talking about epistemology.
Nobody's ever going to convince me there isn't a there there. Like I said, I'm not French.
But I'm open to the idea that human beings are structurally far more limited than I believed when I woke up this morning.
Unless you are saying that fact is objective by inaccessible, and truth is human perception (or contextualization*) of fact. Then, yes, the quip works but I don't think it's very helpful because it could be misunderstood as fact.
* Oh, sh-t. That's Heidegger right there.
That's ontology. I'm talking about epistemology.
Nobody's ever going to convince me there isn't a there there. Like I said, I'm not French.
But I'm open to the idea that human beings are structurally far more limited than I believed when I woke up this morning.
Unless you are saying that fact is objective by inaccessible, and truth is human perception (or contextualization*) of fact. Then, yes, the quip works but I don't think it's very helpful because it could be misunderstood as fact.
* Oh, sh-t. That's Heidegger right there.
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The Sicatoka
Kicizapi Cetan
Re: POTUS 45:52: Not Founded On Anything
But you alone are allowed such.
Those who do the same, but for different beliefs and rational ends, are "dummies".
And thus you prove your own hypothesis of:
But you alone are allowed such.
Those who do the same, but for different beliefs and rational ends, are "dummies".
And thus you prove your own hypothesis of:
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Kepler
Si certus es dubita
Re: POTUS 45:52: Not Founded On Anything
In reverse: the Trump economy or the Immigration Threat.
In reverse: the Trump economy or the Immigration Threat.
The Sicatoka
Kicizapi Cetan
I care deeply but think we are completely f’ed. Maybe because of that I get frustrated that we’ve wasted two years on the Trump stuff when we face serious problems. The economy and environment are a hell of a lot more important than how corrupt Trump is.
I agree with the majority of the people on here that the modern day right is awful, but that doesn’t mean the modern left is good or has the ability to solve our immense challenges. I hope some day our country comes good, it just seems like we are a long way away from that right now.
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