POTUS 45.45: The Wall or a Shut Down. Your Choice Pelosi!!!!!!

[The Rube]

Re: POTUS 45.45: The Wall or a Shut Down. Your Choice Pelosi!!!!!!

Saying, "tragedy always exists hopefully we improve as a society", doesn't really answer why you support unjust and/or racist laws and their corresponding overly harsh punishment.

I don't support them, but I also want people to take responsibility for their actions. Unfair as it is.

 

[mookie1995]

Saying, "tragedy always exists hopefully we improve as a society", doesn't really answer why you support unjust and/or racist laws and their corresponding overly harsh punishment.

Well why do you support the unjust laws??

 

[rufus]

They need a vast overhaul. Many times, as W Kamau Bell explains in his last special, the president spot isn't "won." It's bought. The winner submitted the best bid. It's sick.

To delve further, and this is being said as a smoker, everyone is trying to ban tobacco, or make cigs illegal. Won't happen. Why? Tax money and lobbies. It's horrible. Choose a friggin' side. Politicians follow the dollar, is my point. That is not the best way to run a country, to put it politely.

No, I meant about breaking them.

 

[mookie1995]

Re: POTUS 45.45: The Wall or a Shut Down. Your Choice Pelosi!!!!!!

https://www.sfchronicle.com/opinion...ontent=newsletter&utm_campaign=sfc_morningfix

 

[ScoobyDoo]

Re: POTUS 45.45: The Wall or a Shut Down. Your Choice Pelosi!!!!!!

It's a tragedy, don't get me wrong. It's unfair. However, tragedy is often needed to change things. I don't like that, but it's the way it is. We often have to learn from our history.

What's oddly relevant is a quote from Beavis And Butthead, and I'll paraphrase, since I don't recall the exact quote....but if everything ruled, how would we know what sucked?

There's going to be some dark times, some evil instances, before improvement, because we are not perfect beings. Some people will perish. Some people will be served unjust punishments, and HOPEFULLY, we will learn from all those things and improve as a species. We will still make mistakes, but I also hope we will continue to grow and learn.

There is no evidence that our current "illegal" definitions for immigration justify that. Society and life is about choices and frankly were making all the wrong ones. And, despite your logical policy stand in this matter it's not worth it. It's just not. Your illegal immigration stand is similar to plutocracies stand on Health Care (only the ones who can afford it, get it). It's not worth it.

And your stand on the issue which is relatively human to Trump's still justifies the return of the Statue of Liberty to France. No matter how "rule of law" you are. The fact is choices are made every day about the laws that need enforcing and how far to go with that enforcement. This isn't one that needs massive strict enforcement. Let's use those resources for gun laws. That would actually be productive.

 

[RaceBoarder]

Re: POTUS 45.45: The Wall or a Shut Down. Your Choice Pelosi!!!!!!

Are there any regulations/laws that penalize entities that hire non-documented (illegal) workers? The obvious one would be tax evasion (under the table pay), but I'm sure there are more. Why not crack down on that since it's the root of the problem? That would also get the business people pushing for a streamlined immigration process so they can get their workforce back...

Seems like a Win/Win for all involved **shrug**

 

[The Rube]

Re: POTUS 45.45: The Wall or a Shut Down. Your Choice Pelosi!!!!!!

Are there any regulations/laws that penalize entities that hire non-documented (illegal) workers? The obvious one would be tax evasion (under the table pay), but I'm sure there are more. Why not crack down on that since it's the root of the problem? That would also get the business people pushing for a streamlined immigration process so they can get their workforce back...

Seems like a Win/Win for all involved **shrug**

I agree that we should crack down on those employers. It won't solve the whole problem, but it is a big part of it.

 

[WeAreNDHockey]

Re: POTUS 45.45: The Wall or a Shut Down. Your Choice Pelosi!!!!!!

Brent (or Rube, when the eff did that happen?) will never understand the blatant lack of logic to his argument. If a law benefits all, and is applied fairly without prejudice, it would be OK for him to hold his views. But if a law is based in racism (which much of our immigration laws are and were for a good part of the history of this country) and if they are enforced unfairly (which they are, as they favor people from non-5h!t-hole countries, people who would be identified as "white," those with money and those who provide labor for the wealth class) they are clearly NOT OK.

Brent/Rube honestly believes he is not a racist, and I imagine would never openly or consciously treat people differently based on their race insofar as his personal actions carry him. That he can't see that his beliefs on immigration are rooted in falsehoods and unfortunate assumptions and ,yes, racism, is tragic and it shows how far our society has to go when it comes to dealing with systemic racism. As a middle-aged, middle-class white guy, I sometimes forget how deeply rooted in racism much of our society operates. A sizeable minority of white people believe exactly as Brent does. Couple that with the quarter or third of white people who are just flat out bigots, and that's how we arrive at the point in our history 2018 is. The good news is, this can't and won't go on forever. The bad news is, one of the two possible outcomes is literally the end of this nation as we know it.

 

[The Rube]

Re: POTUS 45.45: The Wall or a Shut Down. Your Choice Pelosi!!!!!!

Brent (or Rube, when the eff did that happen?) will never understand the blatant lack of logic to his argument. If a law benefits all, and is applied fairly without prejudice, it would be OK for him to hold his views. But if a law is based in racism (which much of our immigration laws are and were for a good part of the history of this country) and if they are enforced unfairly (which they are, as they favor people from non-5h!t-hole countries, people who would be identified as "white," those with money and those who provide labor for the wealth class) they are clearly NOT OK.

Brent/Rube honestly believes he is not a racist, and I imagine would never openly or consciously treat people differently based on their race insofar as his personal actions carry him. That he can't see that his beliefs on immigration are rooted in falsehoods and unfortunate assumptions and ,yes, racism, is tragic and it shows how far our society has to go when it comes to dealing with systemic racism. As a middle-aged, middle-class white guy, I sometimes forget how deeply rooted in racism much of our society operates. A sizeable minority of white people believe exactly as Brent does. Couple that with the quarter or third of white people who are just flat out bigots, and that's how we arrive at the point in our history 2018 is. The good news is, this can't and won't go on forever. The bad news is, one of the two possible outcomes is literally the end of this nation as we know it.

The current immigration laws are based in racism, which is why I suggested the Ellis Island way for immigration (background check, productive member, etc). Make it streamlined, efficient, etc. Make it the same process for everything involving immigration. Hey, this person passed the requirements, they now get to choose citizenship, green card, work visa, whatever.

And the name change came a couple days ago; I desired the same screen name I use on other social media platforms.

 

[aparch]

Re: POTUS 45.45: The Wall or a Shut Down. Your Choice Pelosi!!!!!!

The current immigration laws are based in racism, which is why I suggested the Ellis Island way for immigration (background check, productive member, etc). Make it streamlined, efficient, etc. Make it the same process for everything involving immigration. Hey, this person passed the requirements, they now get to choose citizenship, green card, work visa, whatever.

And the name change came a couple days ago; I desired the same screen name I use on other social media platforms.

You do realize that Ellis Island was built because those in control were scared by the influx of dirty, darker skinned, unskilled, thieves like Southern Italians, Poles, Russian Jews and Slovaks coming into our country, right?

 

[alfablue]

Re: POTUS 45.45: The Wall or a Shut Down. Your Choice Pelosi!!!!!!

To add to the whole culture v racism debate, I bet few here are for cock fighting.

But like bull fighting in Spain, it's part of the culture in some US territories. Such as Hispanic Puerto Rico.

Well, it was.... https://www.washingtonpost.com/poli...62b712e8fc2_story.html?utm_term=.77dbcaf93f56

So instead of letting a culture take care of it's own issues, we impose our culture onto them. Along with major shipping restrictions that cost billions of dollars to consumers and businesses (Jones Act), and an absolute dollar limit for the entire island for Social Security (Puerto Rican's get a fraction of what the rest Americans get, in spite of paying exactly the same into SS), and an absolute dollar limit for the entire island for Medicare (see SS). All of which has lead to huge economic problems for the island.

And instead of making sure Maria relief payments get to the island, Congress thought it was a good idea to take away more Puerto Rican Culture.

What the hell kind of country are we?

 

[The Rube]

Re: POTUS 45.45: The Wall or a Shut Down. Your Choice Pelosi!!!!!!

You do realize that Ellis Island was built because those in control were scared by the influx of dirty, darker skinned, unskilled, thieves like Southern Italians, Poles, Russian Jews and Slovaks coming into our country, right?

It's the easiest way to explain my suggestion (thanks to Handy for simplifying the comparison). That's all.

And don't forget the Irish in that bias, btw.

Immigration should be simple. The current laws are much too complex for what the goal is: allow productive individuals who want a better life for themselves, come here and help this nation improve.

 

[WeAreNDHockey]

Re: POTUS 45.45: The Wall or a Shut Down. Your Choice Pelosi!!!!!!

It's the easiest way to explain my suggestion (thanks to Handy for simplifying the comparison). That's all.

And don't forget the Irish in that bias, btw.

Immigration should be simple. The current laws are much too complex for what the goal is: allow productive individuals who want a better life for themselves, come here and help this nation improve.

You do realize that even with the current laws -- and people coming here in ways that "violate" those laws -- immigrants overwhelmingly help the nation, right? The commit fewer crimes than citizens, they pay more into our government coffers than they take out, they keep food affordable and plentiful, and add to our culture in ways that make the country more interesting and diverse, goals we should all want even if they are less tangible than cheap fruit and vegetables. If you actually wanted to help the nation, then you should encourage people to keep coming in, legally or otherwise. At this point Brent I believe your stance on this will never change because you suffer from the same affliction as far too many voters, you cannot admit you are wrong. You've staked out your position and probably see any change as some sign of weakness or stupidity. Its the same reason so many people cannot admit that voting for trump was a mistake, and why a congress with a 15% approval rating rarely even turns over 10% of its members.

We do need to change our immigration laws, but not for any of the reasons you think they are broken. We need to change the way we enforce the laws and what some of the laws are because rightnow they are based in racism and fear. Other than that, we need to let in as many people who want to come here. Period. And don't give me any crap about letting criminals in. A baby born in Ohio to a couple of parents born in Indiana is far more likely to commit crimes than any person coming in across the southern border. Do we need to vet people in Ohio before we allow them to procreate?

 

[aparch]

Re: POTUS 45.45: The Wall or a Shut Down. Your Choice Pelosi!!!!!!

...Do we need to vet people in Ohio before we allow them to procreate?

This isn't the complete worst idea I've seen floated about this board...

 

[Deutsche Gopher Fan]

This isn't the complete worst idea I've seen floated about this board...

I’d be all for vetting Ohio and the red states!

 

[The Rube]

Re: POTUS 45.45: The Wall or a Shut Down. Your Choice Pelosi!!!!!!

You do realize I DO encourage people to come to this country, right? Just do it legally. It's a great country, despite our current leader and some of the people here. Asking folks to obey the laws isn't some drastic over-the-top request.

 

[WeAreNDHockey]

Re: POTUS 45.45: The Wall or a Shut Down. Your Choice Pelosi!!!!!!

Asking folks to obey the laws isn't some drastic over-the-top request.

Sometimes it is. In the case of some of our immigration laws, it clearly is. Just as asking slaves on the run to return to their plantations was an over-the-top request. I know, I know, you would have told them to go back and when they were done with their "work" to confront the masters with the unfairness of being required to provide labor for no wages and eventually they'd win their freedom. When people are running from poverty, starvation, violence (perpetrated by either governments or gangs) or forced servitude, asking them to turn around and go back until we can find a way to let them in "legally" is over-the-top. May you never be forced to make such a choice Brent. I'd hate to see you have to make a hypocritical decision.

 

[5mn_Major]

Re: POTUS 45.45: The Wall or a Shut Down. Your Choice Pelosi!!!!!!

You do realize I DO encourage people to come to this country, right? Just do it legally. It's a great country, despite our current leader and some of the people here. Asking folks to obey the laws isn't some drastic over-the-top request.

Agreed. Some mix the ends with the means. Not sure its a secret that I disagree with some of your ends.

 

[Handyman]

Re: POTUS 45.45: The Wall or a Shut Down. Your Choice Pelosi!!!!!!

There is no evidence that our current "illegal" definitions for immigration justify that. Society and life is about choices and frankly were making all the wrong ones. And, despite your logical policy stand in this matter it's not worth it. It's just not. Your illegal immigration stand is similar to plutocracies stand on Health Care (only the ones who can afford it, get it). It's not worth it.

And your stand on the issue which is relatively human to Trump's still justifies the return of the Statue of Liberty to France. No matter how "rule of law" you are. The fact is choices are made every day about the laws that need enforcing and how far to go with that enforcement. This isn't one that needs massive strict enforcement. Let's use those resources for gun laws. That would actually be productive.

True, but what is the point of having a law if it isnt enforced? Would make more sense to change it than to just say "nah we can let that go". And who gets to decide what laws matter and what laws dont because I dont trust the people in charge to make those decisions no matter what party is in power. Should the people in the Southwest have the right to decide? If so I bet you wont like their decision...

You may not like it but Brent is right. Changing the law is the only way to make this work and the truth is most Americans are too lazy to care or do anything about it unless it directly effects them. Sure now everyone is up in arms over what is going on but it isnt like Border Patrol and ICE/Immigration is a new thing. Trump by accident did the best thing that could ever happen to the idea of Immigration Reform by basically giving his agents carte blanche to curbstomp anyone they think is illegal. Now every Liberal is mobilized and even some Trump supporters are ticked because they are losing a cheap workforce. Every day we have stories and videos of the horrors...that is how you get change.

Just telling the cops not to enforce the law just annoys people which brings blowback.

 

[Handyman]

Re: POTUS 45.45: The Wall or a Shut Down. Your Choice Pelosi!!!!!!

You do realize that Ellis Island was built because those in control were scared by the influx of dirty, darker skinned, unskilled, thieves like Southern Italians, Poles, Russian Jews and Slovaks coming into our country, right?

You do realize that half the stuff in this country can probably be traced back to racism...so what? Everyone here keeps using Ellis Island as the standard because back then pretty much everyone was let in. Now all of a sudden Rube wants to go back to that and you trot out that it was racist? Talk about moving the goalposts.