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POTUS 45.4 - What's a Battle?

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Re: POTUS 45.4 - What's a Battle?

dxmnkd316 said:
Or, you know, they're *gasp* lying. It would be the first time this administration lied. In the last 30 seconds.
Click to expand...

The Admin? Sure.
But DHS (which is still mainly Obama staffed at the top) denied it just as quickly.

It fit the paradigm and someone went with it.
 
St. Clown said:
Everything in this thread has the tone of "THE SKY IS FALLING! THE SKY IS FALLING! EVERYTHING THEY DO IS PURE EVIL! Oh look, a cookie. And if you don't agree with me, you're one of them - the most hated and stupiderest people there is." So I've just been spot checking along every so often.
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Agree with this. If there is something negative you can say about Trump it's that he literally is causing people to lose their minds. It's really sad to see.
 
Re: POTUS 45.4 - What's a Battle?

MaizeRage said:
You've repeated this more than a few times now, but never go on to explain exactly why Hillary was a "bad product".
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I'm pretty sure I have plenty of times, but here's my list.

1. No charisma; terrible public speaker even after decades of drilling. Flat and uninspiring.
2. 30 years in the sights of the VRWC. Too much baggage.
3. Entitled mannerisms and behavior even within her own caucus, alienating potential supporters
4. Super shady, lawyerly responses when questioned; generally suspicious manner
5. Cadre of arrogant supporters everyone else in the D structure loathed*
6. Grounded in third way and triangulation methods long since irrelevant

* To be fair, also true of Obama.
 
Re: POTUS 45.4 - What's a Battle?

ScoobyDoo said:
Great data. That is frightening to me. That election still haunts me.
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And parsing the data even further, I'm not entirely convinced there are more than 2,000,000 swing voters in the entire nation. The swings are just the lazy non-voters.

2004: +8.03 million D, +11.58 million G
2008: +10.4 million D, -2.09 million G
2012: -3.58 million D, +0.99 million G
2016: -0.06 million D, +2.05 million G

If you add those up, it's +14.85 million D and +12.53 million G. That should give you hope. It's also my duty to crush it. Among swing states, it's +4.12 million D, +4.20 million G.

CO: D-G = 281,000
FL: -112,000
IA: -151,000 !!!
ME: -11,000
MN: -13,500 !
MO: -445,000 !!!
NC: +200,000
OH: -281,000
PA: -249,000
WI: -28,000 *This is for Sic who somehow thinks Walker has swung Wisconsin voters entirely. He has not.
 
Re: POTUS 45.4 - What's a Battle?

Kepler said:
I'm pretty sure I have plenty of times, but here's my list.

1. No charisma; terrible public speaker even after decades of drilling. Flat and uninspiring.
2. 30 years in the sights of the VRWC. Too much baggage.
3. Entitled mannerisms and behavior even within her own caucus, alienating potential supporters
4. Super shady, lawyerly responses when questioned; generally suspicious manner
5. Cadre of arrogant supporters everyone else in the D structure loathed*
6. Grounded in third way and triangulation methods long since irrelevant

* To be fair, also true of Obama.
Click to expand...

< hand in air >
Does your #5 include how some quarters reacted when appearances were that DWS and the DNC put the fix in for her?
 
Re: POTUS 45.4 - What's a Battle?

Kepler said:
That is 100% true. I'll admit I over-Fish people. You're not all like that and considering the million gradations of what passes for "left" here, all the way from Rover's cigar-chomping Wall Street broker who wants everything to stay the same but just lay off the gays I guess to my man will never be free until the last trust fund kid is strangled with the guts of the last priest oh and ban the designated hitter to Scoob's, well... anyway, we are all very different.
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Ooh! Do me next! :D ;)
 
Re: POTUS 45.4 - What's a Battle?

The Sicatoka said:
< hand in air >
Does your #5 include how some quarters reacted when appearances were that DWS and the DNC put the fix in for her?
Click to expand...

I deliberately steered away from the fact that her machine fixed the nomination for her simply because that happens a lot. It was in fact a minor miracle that Obama won in 2008, and an off-the-rails surprise that Trump won in 2016. Frequently, one party or the other has already all but sewn up the nomination months before the primaries even begin. It can be blown (Hillary 08, Bush 16) but you need a fairly spectacular trainwreck of a staff to pull that off.

So anyway, I'm not putting that on her -- it's just the reality of machine politics.
 
Re: POTUS 45.4 - What's a Battle?

Kepler said:
I don't buy this at all. Trump lies at the feet of his voters. They are to blame. Not the non-voters, and certainly not those who voted against him.

You don't blame a rape equally on the rapist and the victim.

(If you're a Republican you blame it solely on the victim.)
Click to expand...

The point is not simply that Trump got elected, but that politics follows culture. We're almost all guilty of the kind of shrill mockery, hatefulness, and bad will to which the Trump election is just a response. It feels good to rant about "nuking the slave states" and so on, but it makes people from Texas angry to hear it. etc. etc. etc. It'll get worse until citizens who know better, behave better.
My new strategy is not to argue, but to probe the diehards around the edges: They go on a rant about the media, ignore it, then ask, "did 5 million illegals really vote against him? How do you know?"
Respectful resistance welcomes a gradual softening of tone and eventual change of heart.
 
Re: POTUS 45.4 - What's a Battle?

Drew S. said:
So the best way to counter it is abuse people who didn't vote for the other candidate?
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Not sure to whom you're referring.

If you mean lapsed Democrats or disaffected liberals, you and I are on the same page.

If you mean the Deplorables, they're gone, they're not coming back. Like the southern racists we lost in the 70s, the D's need to look past them and start concentrating on the parts of the R coalition that are disgusted by Herr Hairdo and his minions: moderate, suburban Republicans and civil libertarians.
 
Re: POTUS 45.4 - What's a Battle?

Drew S. said:
Agree with this. If there is something negative you can say about Trump it's that he literally is causing people to lose their minds. It's really sad to see.
Click to expand...

There are plenty of negative things to say about Trump - I'm putting it at 89% chance that he's not going to be a good president, let alone person. The problem is that instead of taking a level head and discussing things here, as had been done at various times over the years, it's all hyperbole in statements and vitriol tossed at anyone who doesn't agree with you completely from a goodly portion of this board right now. And it's even worse outside of this little bubble we have here.

It will never be perfect, but we should strive to be more civil and level headed in our discussions.
 
Re: POTUS 45.4 - What's a Battle?

St. Clown said:
There are plenty of negative things to say about Trump - I'm putting it at 89% chance that he's not going to be a good president, let alone person. The problem is that instead of taking a level head and discussing things here, as had been done at various times over the years, it's all hyperbole in statements and vitriol tossed at anyone who doesn't agree with you completely from a goodly portion of this board right now. And it's even worse outside of this little bubble we have here.

It will never be perfect, but we should strive to be more civil and level headed in our discussions.
Click to expand...
Oh baloney. Nothing has changed around here at all. The board is fine. The discussion here is actually better than it is anywhere else.
 
Re: POTUS 45.4 - What's a Battle?

The Sicatoka said:
Like I've said, same thing, but from the other direction, as eight years ago.
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Yes, to a point. It just seems more amplified this time. Or because it's a smaller core of people actually posting on the board these days, so it appears that way.
 
Re: POTUS 45.4 - What's a Battle?

geezer said:
The point is not simply that Trump got elected, but that politics follows culture. We're almost all guilty of the kind of shrill mockery, hatefulness, and bad will to which the Trump election is just a response. It feels good to rant about "nuking the slave states" and so on, but it makes people from Texas angry to hear it. etc. etc. etc. It'll get worse until citizens who know better, behave better.
My new strategy is not to argue, but to probe the diehards around the edges: They go on a rant about the media, ignore it, then ask, "did 5 million illegals really vote against him? How do you know?"
Respectful resistance welcomes a gradual softening of tone and eventual change of heart.
Click to expand...

This is without a doubt the better tack, and it's the one I pursue in Real Life (TM). The Cafe is where I come to vent my spleen. And anyway, everybody here is already a foregone conclusion. It's the same dozen old fat straight white dudes grousing at each other every day. :p

FTR the only change I've seen in this board is 17 years ago the NAPALM fools used to use ad hom, and today nobody does regularly and when we each slip up it's very rare. That's an improvement. There has certainly been a shift towards fewer defenders of the GOP on this board, but that could also be just the natural shift against the party that has f-cked everything up so enormously.
 
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Re: POTUS 45.4 - What's a Battle?

ScoobyDoo said:
Oh baloney. Nothing has changed around here at all. The board is fine. The discussion here is actually better than it is anywhere else.
Click to expand...

Thanks for disagreeing with what I said and giving it some thought.

St. Clown said:
There are plenty of negative things to say about Trump - I'm putting it at 89% chance that he's not going to be a good president, let alone person. The problem is that instead of taking a level head and discussing things here, as had been done at various times over the years, it's all hyperbole in statements and vitriol tossed at anyone who doesn't agree with you completely from a goodly portion of this board right now. And it's even worse outside of this little bubble we have here.

It will never be perfect, but we should strive to be more civil and level headed in our discussions.
Click to expand...
 
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