What's new
USCHO Fan Forum

This is a sample guest message. Register a free account today to become a member! Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members through your own private inbox!

  • The USCHO Fan Forum has migrated to a new plaform, xenForo. Most of the function of the forum should work in familiar ways. Please note that you can switch between light and dark modes by clicking on the gear icon in the upper right of the main menu bar. We are hoping that this new platform will prove to be faster and more reliable. Please feel free to explore its features.

POTUS: 45.37: The Earth is Flat and the Babies Are Crying

Status
Not open for further replies.
Re: POTUS: 45.37: The Earth is Flat and the Babies Are Crying

New op ed today from everyone’s fav NYT:

“The ignorant do not have a right to an audience”

https://mobile.nytimes.com/2018/06/...just-access.html?smid=fb-nytopinion&smtyp=cur

On June 17, the political commentator Ann Coulter, appearing as a guest on Fox News, asserted that crying migrant children separated from their parents are “child actors.” Does this groundless claim deserve as much airtime as, for example, a historically informed argument from Ta-Nehisi Coates that structural racism makes the American dream possible?

Yes, according to Brent. In fact, not yes, BUT YES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 
Yes, according to Brent. In fact, not yes, BUT YES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Michelle Wolfe gets it

http://thehill.com/homenews/media/393956-michelle-wolf-slams-tv-news-for-having-trump-officials-on-air-youre-giving-a
 
Re: POTUS: 45.37: The Earth is Flat and the Babies Are Crying

This is exactly right.

One thing that people who wield great power often fail to viscerally understand is what it feels like to have power wielded against you. This imbalance is the source of many of the most monstrous decisions that get made by powerful people and institutions. The people who start the wars do not have bombs dropped on their houses. The people who pass the laws that incarcerate others never have to face the full force of the prison system themselves. The people who design the economic system that inflicts poverty on millions are themselves rich. This sort of insulation from the real world consequences of political and economic decisions makes it very easy for powerful people to approve of things happening to the rest of us that they would never, ever tolerate themselves. No health insurance CEO would watch his child die due to their inability to afford quality health care. No chickenhawk Congressman will be commanding a tank battle in Iran. No opportunistic race-baiting politician will be shunned because of their skin color. Zealots condemn gay people—except for their own gay children. The weed-smoking of young immigrants should get them deported—but our own weed-smoking was a youthful indiscretion. Environmentalist celebrities fly on carbon-spouting private jets. Banks make ostentatious charity donations while raking in billions from investments in defense contractors and gun manufacturers and oil companies. This is human nature. It is very, very easy to do things that hurt others as long as those same things benefit, rather than hurt, you. Self-justification is a specialty of mankind.

Comfort the powerless and afflict the powerful. If you do that, I'm with you. I don't care if you're left or right.
 
Re: POTUS: 45.37: The Earth is Flat and the Babies Are Crying

Proving once again it is virtually impossible to civilly argue about anything with the left. Too many make and take everything personally.

I think Bob had the right idea when he vacated the field.

What attack is asking where your moral outrage is?

It's a simple question that you evade- so many of your posts involve moral issues- gay marriage, abortion, etc. So one would expect that you have a moral setting that is higher than most.

Kids are being taken from parents. That's a pretty basic level of morality.

Are you angry or not?

I am. Very much so. Should one be ashamed of being outraged by our government taking kids from their parents? Or should we be ashamed that that there's a big part of this country that is fine with taking kids from their parents?

There are a lot of posters who make posts about moral issues that are not posting on this simple issue. That's stunning to me.

If you feel attacked because someone questions your morality when you are silent over such a situation, well, so be it- that's your problem, not mine.
 
Re: POTUS: 45.37: The Earth is Flat and the Babies Are Crying

There is no point in calling out posters here by name. That verges on the ad hominum and/or tu quoque logical fallacies, but also it is not our office to be the conscience of another man. Practically speaking, a personal attack would cause any of us to retreat into a defensive posture. A dialog has to be a cooperation, not a coercion.

I believe the people who voted for Dump the first time do have blood on their hands from this indirectly -- it was foreseeable given the rhetoric and the political calculations of the right. I believe anyone who votes for Dump or the GOP in the wake of this bears direct responsibility. Support is approval.

But I do not believe it is my place to accuse any given person of complicity. That's between them and their conscience. A man with a conscience will punish himself; a man without one is beyond help anyway.

Sorry, but some times it's ok to call out someone's hypocrisy. This one is a doozy.

The right, and many here, call themselves for family values. And seem to be ok with taking kids from parents due to what is the same as a traffic ticket. Again, maybe we need to take kids from parents who speed- for the safety of the kids.
 
Re: POTUS: 45.37: The Earth is Flat and the Babies Are Crying

What attack is asking where your moral outrage is?

It's a simple question that you evade- so many of your posts involve moral issues- gay marriage, abortion, etc. So one would expect that you have a moral setting that is higher than most.

Kids are being taken from parents. That's a pretty basic level of morality.

Are you angry or not?

I am. Very much so. Should one be ashamed of being outraged by our government taking kids from their parents? Or should we be ashamed that that there's a big part of this country that is fine with taking kids from their parents?

There are a lot of posters who make posts about moral issues that are not posting on this simple issue. That's stunning to me.

If you feel attacked because someone questions your morality when you are silent over such a situation, well, so be it- that's your problem, not mine.

I'm angry. I hope Brent and SJ and joe are angry too. I've asked them how they feel and how they reconcile their support for the regime and the party that has done this, because I am curious. I also think they have the right to tell their story (or, for that matter, to be silent and deal with their own inner voices).

This isn't a courtroom. I want to know how they feel because they aren't stupid and they aren't monsters, so I want to know how they can, in my mind, enable monsters -- not just enable them before in the abstract when it was potentiality, but now, after it's happening, when they can see it in the flesh. Imagine if Hannah Arendt had gotten to talk to Good Germans in the 1930s. She wouldn't have been doing history, then, but anthropology.

This is important way beyond this case. It's how evil works its will using a population that is for the most part not monstrous. Here we have a real life case of terrible things that are happening because not terrible people are telling themselves it's OK. I want to know how that's happening, because it could also happen to you and me.

I want to understand a sickness because I don't want to get sick.
 
Last edited:
Re: POTUS: 45.37: The Earth is Flat and the Babies Are Crying

I'm angry. I hope Brent and SJ and joe are angry too. I've asked them how they feel and how they reconcile their support for the regime and the party that has done this, because I am curious. I also think they have the right to tell their story (or, for that matter, to be silent and deal with their own inner voices).

This isn't a courtroom. I want to know how they feel because they aren't stupid and they aren't monsters, so I want to know how they can, in my mind, enable monsters -- not just enable them before in the abstract when it was potentiality, but now, after it's happening, when they can see it in the flesh. Imagine if Hannah Arendt had gotten to talk to Good Germans in the 1930s. She wouldn't have been doing history, then, but anthropology.

This is important way beyond this case. It's how evil works its will using a population that is for the most part not monstrous. Here we have a real life case of terrible things that are happening because not terrible people are telling themselves it's OK. I want to know how that's happening, because it could also happen to you and me.

I want to understand a sickness because I don't want to get sick.

Yes, but.

Many of these people want to be treated like they are at the adult's table. Yet more and more, you question them on pretty simple items, and they can't come up with a decent answer, or some kind of deflection to make you *think* that they might have an opinion.

This is where brent and drew are- you are really not sure how they feel about this, as they are bothered by the coverage, and would like to see both sides more. So they are like Arron Burr- they will swing to whoever is running the country- no opinion is better than one that could make you a target.

Then there are people who put targets onto others, based on X reasons. Yet when someone they support should get that same target, they hesitate- no idea why. This is joe. It's not as if he's not posted moral outrage issues before- he's done it plenty of times. It's that this time, the "outrage" is pretty darned silent on a nurf toss issue. So what does he really stand for? Dunno anymore.

Anyway, my point is that for some people, I'm not sure putting the raw effort into finding the issue is worth it. We see too many people attack "political correctness" as they think they are being attacked, when the reality of being "politically correct" is to just not be an ******* to everyone. Be nice and respectful, and others will do the same to you. So the people who can't get it into their heads that they are just like everyone else, regardless of their skin color or where they come from- I'm happy leaving them at the kids table.

This is a big issue. This is an issue you can't hide from. This is supporting or condemning our government from taking kids from their parents, regardless of the crime. And not having a plan to reunite them.

There's no gray area of "yes, but" here.
 
Re: POTUS: 45.37: The Earth is Flat and the Babies Are Crying

This is where brent and drew are- you are really not sure how they feel about this,

Brent has explicitly stated that it makes him sick on more than one occasion. Why some of you continue to ignore those statements, is beyond me.
 
Re: POTUS: 45.37: The Earth is Flat and the Babies Are Crying

Brent has explicitly stated that it makes him sick on more than one occasion. Why some of you continue to ignore those statements, is beyond me.

They're looking for the little blue ball so they can go play a game of racquetball.
 
Re: POTUS: 45.37: The Earth is Flat and the Babies Are Crying

Brent has explicitly stated that it makes him sick on more than one occasion. Why some of you continue to ignore those statements, is beyond me.

Of course he has. No one said he didn't. Then he said this, "Back in 1800, did you really need to hear an argument AGAINST slavery?

Remember when everyone DID think the earth was flat? Any reason to hear some lunatic say the earth is round? "

I rest my case.
 
Re: POTUS: 45.37: The Earth is Flat and the Babies Are Crying

Yes, but.

Many of these people want to be treated like they are at the adult's table. Yet more and more, you question them on pretty simple items, and they can't come up with a decent answer, or some kind of deflection to make you *think* that they might have an opinion.

This is where brent and drew are- you are really not sure how they feel about this, as they are bothered by the coverage, and would like to see both sides more. So they are like Arron Burr- they will swing to whoever is running the country- no opinion is better than one that could make you a target.

Then there are people who put targets onto others, based on X reasons. Yet when someone they support should get that same target, they hesitate- no idea why. This is joe. It's not as if he's not posted moral outrage issues before- he's done it plenty of times. It's that this time, the "outrage" is pretty darned silent on a nurf toss issue. So what does he really stand for? Dunno anymore.

Anyway, my point is that for some people, I'm not sure putting the raw effort into finding the issue is worth it. We see too many people attack "political correctness" as they think they are being attacked, when the reality of being "politically correct" is to just not be an ******* to everyone. Be nice and respectful, and others will do the same to you. So the people who can't get it into their heads that they are just like everyone else, regardless of their skin color or where they come from- I'm happy leaving them at the kids table.

This is a big issue. This is an issue you can't hide from. This is supporting or condemning our government from taking kids from their parents, regardless of the crime. And not having a plan to reunite them.

There's no gray area of "yes, but" here.

I mostly agree. My difference in approach comes from a few points of disagreement.

In my opinion:

1. There's always a gray area. Find the most moral and justified war we ever fought and I'll find you cases of us incinerating babies with firebombs. The mistake reactionaries make is that there are moral absolutes. There aren't. All moral judgments are contextual.

2. Talking to people and asking their opinion is a way to help them confront things they are hiding from. If you say "THOU ARST A HARLOT BECAUSE..!" you lose them immediately. If you say "So, what was going through your mind when you decided to pull that train of 36 frat boys and a moose? I'm just curious." you get them thinking.

3. Plus, their answer tells you something new to your experience, assuming you haven't made it with a moose. Now, I'm not sure it's going to be that educational or edifying but hey, you never know.

4. We do have to live with one another when this is all over. In 1 year, or 10, or 100, we're going to win. The species is gradually getting up from the mud and filth and reaching towards the stars. Only a handful of the monsters who actually worked in the camps will go to the Stupid Nuremberg Trials. The rest will be reabsorbed back into civil society. How they deNazify will be up to them, but how we are capable of allowing them back into society will be up to us. The addict gets another chance after he detoxes. In New York you can be a new man.
 
Last edited:
Re: POTUS: 45.37: The Earth is Flat and the Babies Are Crying

I'm angry. I hope Brent and SJ and joe are angry too. I've asked them how they feel and how they reconcile their support for the regime and the party that has done this, because I am curious. I also think they have the right to tell their story (or, for that matter, to be silent and deal with their own inner voices).

This isn't a courtroom. I want to know how they feel because they aren't stupid and they aren't monsters, so I want to know how they can, in my mind, enable monsters -- not just enable them before in the abstract when it was potentiality, but now, after it's happening, when they can see it in the flesh. Imagine if Hannah Arendt had gotten to talk to Good Germans in the 1930s. She wouldn't have been doing history, then, but anthropology.

This is important way beyond this case. It's how evil works its will using a population that is for the most part not monstrous. Here we have a real life case of terrible things that are happening because not terrible people are telling themselves it's OK. I want to know how that's happening, because it could also happen to you and me.

I want to understand a sickness because I don't want to get sick.

First, I'm curious why people think I support this regime? I've certainly made it clear that I lean more conservative than a lot of posters here. But as first noted on election morn, I did not vote for Trump and never had any intention of voting for Trump. People quickly took my refusal to vote for HRC as quasi-support for Trump, and apparently that has stuck. But there has been very, very little that has been done by this administration that I support. I didn't have any objection to Gorsuch. I didn't have any objection to Trump at least meeting with the North Korean dictator since I don't think communication is ever a bad thing. But I'd be hard pressed to think of anything else they've done that I really support.

That said, I've been trying to think about why I feel so differently about the idea of listening to what everyone has to say, no matter how crazy or evil we might think they are. I'm not sure I have an answer, but this is the best that I can come up with.

I have strong confidence in my own personal ability to read something or listen to someone and decide if it's just complete b.s. Thus, I have no fear if you want to put some person on tv who is going to claim the space landing was faked, the Sandy Hook shooting never happened, or FEMA will be setting up camps at your local WalMart. Listen, I've had personal business with FEMA and they couldn't set up a camp at a KOA without help. If David Duke comes on tv and starts talking about the evil of mixing the races, my reaction is, "let him talk." Me, I'm flipping stations.

Because of that confidence in myself, I tend to extend that same confidence to everyone else. Unless demonstrated otherwise, I've just always assumed everyone here, all of my friends and work acquaintances, as well as strangers, have that same ability. Thus, I have always tended to err on the side of "let 'em speak." I like when the nuts get a chance to publicly speak. It helps me identify who the crazies are.

So now I'm sure that some of you will ask why I'm not on here railing against Trump or his administration if they've done very little with which I agree. Fair question. The answer is basically I'm not much of a "me too" poster.

I don't post here nearly as often as many of you. If six posters come to this Board and post "I'm really angry they canceled Dexter," you almost certainly won't see me come here and post "me too" or "I'm really angry they canceled Dexter." I consider that to be a waste of my time.

I tend to post in the following instances. First, when I'm asked a question directly, such as Kep's post seems to do. Second, if I disagree with the group think on a subject. Third, if I think there is a view point on a subject that is being ignored, or is important to add. Fourth, if I think someone's point or an article or something else is being misrepresented by a poster.

Candidly, everything else bores me. It's part of the reason I like posting in the political threads, because I don't tend to think the same way about some of the issues as the group, so it gives me more of a chance to disagree.
 
Re: POTUS: 45.37: The Earth is Flat and the Babies Are Crying

First, I'm curious why people think I support this regime?

My impression is you tend to be an apologist for Republican positions in general. I'm sure there are cases in which you diverge from the party, but on a board with dozens of regular political posters about the deepest I ever go with another poster is a very high level perception of where they are coming from.

Put it this way -- there are a few posters here who surprise me with their stance on a new issue, whereas most posters are not at all surprising. I am, for example, an example of a non-surprising poster. You seem to me to be one, too.

That doesn't at all mean you're a Dumpy. To be frank, I wouldn't be wasting my time with you if you were. But he's not a deal breaker for you -- you seem to be OK with the GOP riding along with him as long as he's driving you in the general direction you want to go. That's what I want to ask you about. Now that the stench from the body in the trunk is undeniable, why isn't the GOP's cynicism a deal breaker for you by now?

I'm curious because although you certainly operate from different premises than mine, with you being a righty and me being a lefty, you do seem to think in much the way I do -- caring about being rational, for example. I want to know what's going on in your head because I may face a similar moral dilemma someday and I don't want to (IMO) fail the way you did. I want to be able to stand up and tell my side to go f-ck itself if it is doing something horrific. I want to know what's stopping you from doing so. I really mean it. I'm using you as my own teachable moment.
 
Last edited:
Re: POTUS: 45.37: The Earth is Flat and the Babies Are Crying

I want to know what's going on in your head because I may face a similar moral dilemma someday and, not to be too frank, I don't want to fail the way you did.
Man, you really know how to suck up to a guy. :p

I tend to view Trump like a kidney stone. He's incredibly painful. But sooner or later he'll pass and I'll be rid of him. I'm hoping he doesn't cause permanent damage, but it's something I want to monitor.

I tend to give Republicans in Congress a pass on their refusal to impeach Trump, or even be critical of him, because I understand they have to play the political game themselves. They have to put themselves in the best position to try to keep their own jobs, and sometimes that means just trying to keep your head low and out of the shooting. Other than the tax cut, they haven't really given him much, legislatively.

I have a lot of faith in our government institutions, and their ability to withstand even a clown like Trump. I tend to think the Presidency and the Republic will still be standing even after he is gone. Yeah, there will be some mending of fences that will have to go on with allies. Yeah, someone should get us back into the Iran deal or the climate accord. But we'll survive Donald Trump.

Frankly, I don't tend to get too worked up over much of anything, so that may be part of the "problem" with me, too. :)
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top