POTUS 45.3 - Bowling Green Massacre Memorial Thread

[alfablue]

Re: POTUS 45.3 - Bowling Green Massacre Memorial Thread

I think the problem is over time developers have realized they can make a lot more money building gold plated 4000 sq ft houses instead of basic 1800 sq ft houses, which is absolutely their right. How we fix that I have no idea but it will take a long time in an area like Boston, NY, or SF.

There's a lot more mortgage money that can be made in those homes, too. So it's not as if the bank has no reason to overbuild, too.

They make more money with a 4000ft^2 build than a 1000ft^2 remodel. Even though many consumers are gun shy about it. And more are actually doing the math to figure out that renting is a better option.

 

[Kepler]

Re: POTUS 45.3 - Bowling Green Massacre Memorial Thread

So while you can deflect away from what they in the end stand for on capitol hill because, "hey they're rich too" the fact is they also recognize the value of spreading it around.

It's also telling that the right can never make a coherent argument in defense of their continued support of policies which have only brought harm to the 99% since 1980. All they can do is bray about Bill's blow-job or Gore's airplane or Hillary's emails or Warren's college application.

 

[aparch]

Re: POTUS 45.3 - Bowling Green Massacre Memorial Thread

http://kotaku.com/wolfenstein-parody-thoughtfully-examines-the-ethics-of-1792061280

"Wolfenstein Parody Thoughtfully Examines The Ethics Of Violence Against Nazis"

You round a corner, finger wrapped around the trigger like a child clinging to a safety blanket. A nazi appears. You try to fire, but a mysterious force prevents you. Nazi magic? No, something much more sinister. You hear a voice: “Is it really OK to deny fascism a platform?” “Oh no,” you whisper. Then you die.

<img width=300 src=https://i.kinja-img.com/gawker-media/image/upload/suuzslkdiq7ze6ibzrid.gif>

 

[FlagDUDE08]

Re: POTUS 45.3 - Bowling Green Massacre Memorial Thread

Donald Trump: Banned from Speaking in Britain's Parliament http://www.sfgate.com/business/article/Trump-to-Be-Barred-From-U-K-Parliament-Over-10911743.php

 

[Kepler]

Re: POTUS 45.3 - Bowling Green Massacre Memorial Thread

Donald Trump: Banned from Speaking in Britain's Parliament http://www.sfgate.com/business/article/Trump-to-Be-Barred-From-U-K-Parliament-Over-10911743.php

I like the hook: too disgusting for the Queen to look upon.

Given the royal family, that is a high bar.

The Brits must be so happy they shipped all their Puritan as-shles over here...

 

[SJHovey]

Re: POTUS 45.3 - Bowling Green Massacre Memorial Thread

Ah yes - the tried and true "limousine liberal" argument. The difference between the D 1% and R 1% is the former have no problem calling bulls**t on trickle down economics, on favoring policies that protect the environment, the working class and minorities, on ensuring education for all and not funneling funds via vouchers to those that don't need them, on bolstering civil rights, and finally no issue raising taxes at their very own income level. So while you can deflect away from what they in the end stand for on capitol hill because, "hey they're rich too" the fact is they also recognize the value of spreading it around.

Honest question. Do you think the 99% feel like it got "spread around" the last eight years?

I don't disagree that on message the Democratic positions are largely more favorable to the 99%, although a lot of issues such as the environment, gender and race, etc..., cut across all income classes.

I'll even go so far to agree that Democratic policies enacted while the Democrats are in power are even marginally better for the 99%. But that's the problem, and the reason for my "picked over bone" comment in my response to Kep. That's why you guys lost those voters in November.

You say you're going to help them. Your policies, in some small way may have even provided some incremental benefit. But the benefit was so negligible that the average person in the 99% doesn't see it, hence the "give the other guy a shot, what could go wrong" vote we saw.

 

[FlagDUDE08]

Re: POTUS 45.3 - Bowling Green Massacre Memorial Thread

Ah yes - the tried and true "limousine liberal" argument. The difference between the D 1% and R 1% is the former have no problem calling bulls**t on trickle down economics, on favoring policies that protect the environment, the working class and minorities, on ensuring education for all and not funneling funds via vouchers to those that don't need them, on bolstering civil rights, and finally no issue raising taxes at their very own income level. So while you can deflect away from what they in the end stand for on capitol hill because, "hey they're rich too" the fact is they also recognize the value of spreading it around.

If left-wing 1%ers think their gains are so ill-gotten, why don't they just donate to reduce the public debt, which is explained in the 1040 instruction book?

 

[The Sicatoka]

Re: POTUS 45.3 - Bowling Green Massacre Memorial Thread

It's def lost on me why people care so deeply about guns. I'll never get it as long as I live. Just baffling to me.

< white flag up, sincerely trying to explain >

How deeply do you care about abortion rights? Why?
It's those same internal forces* focused on the Second Amendment.


*Note I say internal forces so it covers both the logic and the emotion.

 

[ScoobyDoo]

Re: POTUS 45.3 - Bowling Green Massacre Memorial Thread

If left-wing 1%ers think their gains are so ill-gotten, why don't they just donate to reduce the public debt, which is explained in the 1040 instruction book?

Yes, cause we all know charity works and we don't need social safety nets in society at the government level. Let's just end Medicare/Medicaid, Social Security, Welfare, CHIPS, right now and get it done with. Let's go with your charity model.

 

[The Sicatoka]

Re: POTUS 45.3 - Bowling Green Massacre Memorial Thread

Education, environment, and civil rights, not necessarily in that order.

I'm sorry, but those are not marquee, election winning issues. Those are second tier concerns, looked at when the top issues are dealt with.

Money ("It's the economy, stupid.") and safety.

If you don't have a job and/or you're worried about crime (or worse) in your community the other stuff really is secondary. (And before you say it, the concern merely need to be perceived, not real.) It's how the human brain works.

 

[Kepler]

Re: POTUS 45.3 - Bowling Green Massacre Memorial Thread

Honest question. Do you think the 99% feel like it got "spread around" the last eight years?

I don't disagree that on message the Democratic positions are largely more favorable to the 99%, although a lot of issues such as the environment, gender and race, etc..., cut across all income classes.

I'll even go so far to agree that Democratic policies enacted while the Democrats are in power are even marginally better for the 99%. But that's the problem, and the reason for my "picked over bone" comment in my response to Kep. That's why you guys lost those voters in November.

You say you're going to help them. Your policies, in some small way may have even provided some incremental benefit. But the benefit was so negligible that the average person in the 99% doesn't see it, hence the "give the other guy a shot, what could go wrong" vote we saw.

A Democratic president working with a sane Congress does deliver policies which help the middle class and the poor. We've seen that again and again (FDR, LBJ, Clinton). When a far right Congress simply holds its breath not giving a crap whether they're hurting the country, nothing happens, but that is hardly the Democrats' fault.

My short answer is: yes, the Dems deliver significantly better than the GOP. GOP policies don't just enrich the 1%, they immiserate everyone else. They are genuinely feudal. Their economic rhetoric is a fairy story.

 

[Kepler]

Re: POTUS 45.3 - Bowling Green Massacre Memorial Thread

I'm sorry, but those are not marquee, election winning issues. Those are second tier concerns, looked at when the top issues are dealt with.

Money ("It's the economy, stupid.") and safety.

If you don't have a job and/or you're worried about crime (or worse) in your community the other stuff really is secondary. (And before you say it, the concern merely need to be perceived, not real.) It's how the human brain works.

This is a bit too simple, because there's a difference between money (subsistence), money (economic security), money (our vacation home), and money (our tenth vacation home).

It follow Maslow's hierarchy.

You're absolutely right that focus begins on the bottom of that pyramid. In politics, the line of scrimmage is always the level on which the plurality of people have their needs just barely met. The GOP is about to learn this lesson, painfully. The Democrats lose when they have repaired things to the point that a sufficient number of voters stop worrying about basic needs (they are able to forget the people still struggling, particularly if they're the wrong color) and start dreaming of becoming rich. But as the GOP actually dynamites most people back down to worrying about the bottom level, they undercut themselves because the Dems, with all their faults, are still the medical staff that can get the destitute back in the game.

 

[BassAle]

Re: POTUS 45.3 - Bowling Green Massacre Memorial Thread

I think the bigger issue is there is a mismatch between supply and demand. There is a large supply of the lower wage (<$50K a year) jobs and only so many people interested in them. Within the group that is interested a decent percentage of them have something holding them back from obtaining one.

One issue I don't think gets much attention but should is how little average, reasonably priced housing is available. I'm sure it varies across the country but in New England this is a big issue for millennials.

housing is a big problem here, for both ownership and renting

first problem is Air B&B, homeaway.com, and other short term rental programs have basically eliminated the option of year-round rental here (there are some people still renting out year-round places, but not enough). When we hire a young single person, they want a place to live near work. The problem is a house in town can go for $4000 a week in the summer and a 1 BR place could be $1500/week in town. There is no financial incentive for a landlord to offer a yearly lease. They do weekly rentals in the summer, and then offer a cheap off-season rental the rest of the year. If our new employee starts in the off-season, they have no problem finding an apartment. But when that off-season lease runs out they are ****ed. These are $75K+ jobs, and the people can't find an affordable place to live nearby.

Home prices are skewed by the second home and income property market. My wife actually runs a non-profit that provides financial assistance to home buyers on the island. The buyer needs to meet some requirements (income thresholds, must be year round residents, and a percentage of household income needs to come from on the island). They have a couple programs. One provides assistance purchasing an existing modest home on the island, the other is an option to build a home (standardized design) in a development they have. In either case, covenants dictate how the home is resold in the future (to who and for how much), so the home remains in the program. This is currently all privately funded, and doesn't address the rental problem.


This isn't a housing bubble that was nation wide like the last one (last time even east bum**** Maine had inflated home prices, now those places have had flat or declining values for the past 10 years). House prices are out of reach for young people places where they can actually find work. In Maine, the housing market is tight in Greater Portland (economy) and along the coast (rich *******s).

 

[The Sicatoka]

Re: POTUS 45.3 - Bowling Green Massacre Memorial Thread

That was all part of the lie- convincing people that they were miserable, even though their lives were fine. Convincing others that people are in terrible shape so that impacts what they are doing.

I will agree that the bonus isn't for everyone- even though production is twice as large as it was in 2009, the number of people working is quite a bit fewer than in 2009- so, once again, the people who benefit the most are the top of the top.

alfa, quit trying to advance. Your life is fine. (How's that taste? )

So, fewer people are working even though production is up? That group, those not able to participate even at the level of their peers of 8 years ago, is being told your life "is fine". Those aren't people "at the top" and nor are their former co-workers who still do have jobs. And those working do see former co-workers who haven't been brought back and wonder if they'll be in that same position next time. You just answered how Trump won.

 

[Rover]

Re: POTUS 45.3 - Bowling Green Massacre Memorial Thread

IMHO, Dems need to 1) keep it simple, and 2) sell the benefits as anybody who's ever done sales though. Its probably why lefties make for terrible realtors. "Yeah, this house is a bit overpriced and truth be told you'll most likely be replacing that roof as soon as the ink dries on the contract. Also I should tell you we used bait to lure the raccoons out of the basement but most likely they'll be back after that food runs out. However you'll break even in 10 years after repairs provided the prime rate doesn't increase to 1978 levels. So, you still interested?" Conservative realtor "Buying this house means YOU'VE MADE IT BABY. Think of how envious your friends will be. Your wife will be putting out 7 days a week if you show your manliness buy purchasing this for her!!!"

Great example is Wall St regulation. Everyone hates Wall St, right? But, what exactly do Dems want to do about it? If you read one of their novel long white papers, maybe its buried in there. Truth be told, I'm not even sure what Sanders wanted to do exactly. As another poster said, it was too vague and people need to know what benefit they'll get. So an issue in their comfort zone turns into a muddle.

Were I advising Bernie, I would have made it simple. Something like: Top 4 banks control 50% of country's deposits. I will pass law that says no one bank can have more than 5% of total deposits. This will force break up of big banks which will lead to better choices for consumers and more jobs. Competition leads to better service, and new smaller banks will have to be set up and staffed, leading to job growth across the country.

Now, mind you I don't know if either of these will actually happen, but they could. This is something tangible that people can sink their teeth into, not "Lets Reinstate Glass-Steagall!!!" when 99% of the population has no idea what the fuk that is.

 

[The Sicatoka]

Re: POTUS 45.3 - Bowling Green Massacre Memorial Thread

One issue I don't think gets much attention but should is how little average, reasonably priced housing is available.

What's it cost to build a new home in that region? Specifically, land? Permitting? Code compliance? Mandatory minimum wages for construction laborers? Inspections? The material costs are fairly consistent region to region (commodity priced).

 

[SJHovey]

Re: POTUS 45.3 - Bowling Green Massacre Memorial Thread

A Democratic president working with a sane Congress does deliver policies which help the middle class and the poor. We've seen that again and again (FDR, LBJ, Clinton). When a far right Congress simply holds its breath not giving a crap whether they're hurting the country, nothing happens, but that is hardly the Democrats' fault.

My short answer is: yes, the Dems deliver significantly better than the GOP. GOP policies don't just enrich the 1%, they immiserate everyone else. They are genuinely feudal. Their economic rhetoric is a fairy story.

Then the problem is you. If they do deliver policies to help the 99%, and if that help is real and is felt by the 99%, but the 99% rejects you anyway, you better figure out why you get rejected.

I'm pretty sure I know why, and I don't think it's just because R's were so mean to Hillary.

It's because you pass Wall Street reform, you bail out Detroit, you pass the ACA, and then you're like "Ta Da! We fixed it!" And for the overwhelming majority of the 99% those policies affected them zero, at least that they see in their bank account or their home or their job. You can claim, six years later, the economy is stronger because of those policies, and it is. But they won't remember that, or even put two and two together. And even if they do agree those policies affected the economy, they still don't see any appreciable change in their lives.

You want to get credit for helping the 99%? Obama, in his first two years could have come in and said the minimum wage goes to $15/hour, we now have an 80% tax on all income over $1 million/year and take a look at this new estate tax. The 99% would feel those changes. Immediately.

But, of course, we know that isn't going to happen, don't we. Not a lot of the 99% in the White House or Congress.

So, at the end of the day, it's all just lip service.

There is a reason why Jesse Ventura was popular in Minnesota, despite being basically a turd. The first thing he does is come in and set all auto license tabs at $49 and have the government issue rebate checks to everyone for $4-500. It was terrible governance, but popular. You want people to like you as a politician? Send them a check for $600/year.

Otherwise, admit what you are.

 

[Rover]

Re: POTUS 45.3 - Bowling Green Massacre Memorial Thread

This isn't a housing bubble that was nation wide like the last one (last time even east bum**** Maine had inflated home prices, now those places have had flat or declining values for the past 10 years). House prices are out of reach for young people places where they can actually find work. In Maine, the housing market is tight in Greater Portland (economy) and along the coast (rich *******s).

This is the money shot right here. People are gravitating for work to the same half dozen cities in the country. Seattle-SF-Austin-DC-NY-Boston and maybe a couple of others. Some places thrive on retirements and other unique situations (Florida, Vegas, etc). Everybody else is screwed. A knowledge economy combined with a newfound desire to live within a city puts these places in the drivers seat. So, to people living in Rust Belt or rural America, Trump will do jack for you. However, aside from some higher transfer payments and health coverage, there's not much Dems can do for you either.

 

[The Sicatoka]

Re: POTUS 45.3 - Bowling Green Massacre Memorial Thread

This is a bit too simple, ...

IMHO, Dems need to 1) keep it simple, ... something tangible that people can sink their teeth into, not "Lets Reinstate Glass-Steagall!!!" when 99% of the population has no idea what the fuk that is.

< gulp >

Kep, I'm sorry dude, but I'm with < gulp > Rover on this one. The Dems overthink it. As Rover said, "novel long" position papers aren't the answer. The Dems need to find their ...

#MAGA
Build the wall.
Drain the swamp.
Lock her up.

All those have more rhythm than substance, but they won.

 

[Kepler]

Re: POTUS 45.3 - Bowling Green Massacre Memorial Thread

Then the problem is you. If they do deliver policies to help the 99%, and if that help is real and is felt by the 99%, but the 99% rejects you anyway, you better figure out why you get rejected.

6 of 7 popular vote victories is convincing a lot of people, but I take your point. On the merits, the GOP should be a severe minority party, with maybe 30% of Congress and never sniffing the presidency. That not only are they not but currently they have a clean sweep is on us. We do need a better approach.

The Democratic and Republican decision-makers are overwhelmingly from the same social class: highly educated, upper middle class and above. In the officiate there is more difference within each party than between the parties. But Democrats talk to the public the way they talk to each other in grad school seminars, while Republicans talk as if they were on the same hard hat job site. Now, the latter is a total put-on, but the rubes don't know.

Ironically it used to be the reverse. Republicans used to talk to the voter with a banker's priorities and William F. Buckley's accent. It was the same BS message: "give the rich all the money and we'll toss you the scraps." But for their pains they lost the House for 50 years. Then Atwater & Ailes et al. learned the lesson and started putting goobers like Reagan and Dubya in front of the mic, welcomed the racists the Dems had just excreted, and all was well for them. Meanwhile the Dems went from Al Smith, extra in On the Waterfront, to Barack Obama, extra in Guess Who's Coming to Dinner. If you want to appeal to people it's probably best not to remind them of the guy who blew the curve in Calculus.

The Dems need salesmen, and not polished Super Bowl salesmen but "country stupid" hustlers. Even the most backwoods GOP voter realizes now that our country has been sold out by both parties to Goldman. Trump showed that if you ran as if you were going to cut those guys' Achilles you win. Warren has shown that if you talk about consumer protection instead of race you get 90% of the people behind you.

Fight the GOP's race war with our class war. We will win easily as long as we match them yahoo for yahoo in the hood ornament competition of the fungible candidate.