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POTUS 45.17 - Section 4 of Amendment 25

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Re: POTUS 45.17 - Section 4 of Amendment 25

Burd, the appearance that racism is a in born trait comes from a "fairness" trait. Which can even be seen in primates.

Since we have this thing to constantly compare and seek "fairness" it naturally leads to blame. And blame is easy when you have someone outside of your tribe. Which makes race a very easy target for a fairness target.

IMHO.

I don't see that fixed. But the way people reach that conclusion can be taught to be incorrect, since it is.
 
Re: POTUS 45.17 - Section 4 of Amendment 25

burd said:
Obama's email saying that we are not born racists is inspiring and the right thing so say.
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That was an awesome email/tweet. Growing up, going to a Roman Catholic K-8 (and this was old-school Roman Catholic with nuns armed with rulers, etc) I had an Israeli, a Saudi, an Indian (dot), and an African-American in my class of about 30 kids. It never registered to me that they were different nationalities, so to speak, until I got older. They were just my classmates.

In other words, I saw them like I saw any other person. Once I got older, and learned more about the world, THEN it hit me....wow, ok, some folks don't like people like those 4 I went to school with. Kinda p*ed me off.
 
Re: POTUS 45.17 - Section 4 of Amendment 25

BassAle said:
Are you accounting for student visas? Not everyone living here is a citizen.
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Sorry, I missed this. Visa students are a separate category from the numbers I posted. So whatever the mix of whites, blacks, latinos, asians, etc. among foreign students is, they aren't included in any of the numbers.
 
Re: POTUS 45.17 - Section 4 of Amendment 25

Brenthoven said:
I care, and the discussion is to get a sense of direction on where we are headed, where we are ending up, etc.

The racists will still be there, unfortunately, IMO. I think they are more blatant today than 10 years ago, when most of them were more subtle in their opinions. They feel almost empowered right now, no thanks to Trump.

By discussing this, maybe we can figure some stuff out and fix problems. *shrug* I hope, anyway.
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How about this...if the monument is at the site of a battle or the home of a figure from the War it can stay. Everything else (especially if it was built after say 1900) must go. And that includes the stupid flag. I dont want to hear any malarkey about "Southern Heritage" either. They rebelled, they lost they pay the price. We have all cited tons of examples of what happens to losers of wars (we have even quoted Robert E Lee about why we dont need these statues) and the South is no different. They want to set up museums and historical sites for preservation that is fine. But it is time for them to realize the War is lost, The South Aint Risin' Again and they are part of America. They can keep themselves unhealthy and stupid if they so choose but it is time to move into the 21st Century. I dont care if it hurts their Southern Pride there are millions (read that again MILLIONS) of people who see these things and are not only disturbed, but are made to feel less than. Their right to feel like a person trumps a monument to a traitor.

After that, there is nothing else that is needed. There will be fights over racist names and such and those are different and immaterial here. (and will be fought on a case by case basis) There is no slippery slope because this doesnt compare to anything else. If the Nazis can be erased from Germany, if Stalin's name and statues can be taken away from Russia, if Saddam can have his monuments destroyed and even King George here then it is time to make sure the Confederacy and its racism are put where they belong...in the dirt and in the museum.
 
Re: POTUS 45.17 - Section 4 of Amendment 25

joecct said:
We've had "No Irish Allowed", the "Yellow Peril", Reconstruction, Know Nothings, KKK, Gentlemens' Agreements and Massive Resistance to name a few. Nothing has changed. Just the targets.
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Wow way to completely make the wrong comparison. You cant compare how The Blacks were treated with the Irish or the Yellow Peril. "Irish Need Not Apply" is parallel to how we treat Muslims now now how this country has dealt with Blacks. Jim Crow Laws alone trump anything else on your list.
 
Re: POTUS 45.17 - Section 4 of Amendment 25

Watched Maher last night. One of the guests said fine all the statues can go. I don't disagree. If that's the way we teach history in this country it's no wonder we fail. Put them all in Cemetery's or Museum's. Done.
 
Re: POTUS 45.17 - Section 4 of Amendment 25

alfablue said:
The other issue with your data that makes it appear equal is the result in the general society. Minorities still have a wage gap that significantly as a good increase is jobless rates.

Which points out that the separate but equal isn't, since it's not impacting jobs and wages as much as it should.
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It doesn't make the result appear equal, the unequal results are still unequal, and college access is just one factor of the results in society. The cursory examination say that blacks may very well be under represented at some or most, or even all large, public institutions, but it doesn't appear that it's because whites are over represented. In total across all schools, about 10% more African Americans have college access (as a function of their make up of the total population) than would be expected. Perhaps admitting more blacks to schools like UW would indeed be helpful, (or perhaps that isn't really what is driving inequality in society, I don't know for sure) and perhaps what would be most helpful would be over representing by a factor of 3x, 4x, or 5x... but unless there is large scale expansion, those seats, as far as I can tell by the way it works right now, would be taken from seats currently occupied by white kids, who themselves are already under represented. It doesn't appear to be nearly as simple of a thing as I would have expected.
 
Re: POTUS 45.17 - Section 4 of Amendment 25

Handyman said:
How about this...if the monument is at the site of a battle or the home of a figure from the War it can stay. Everything else (especially if it was built after say 1900) must go. And that includes the stupid flag. I dont want to hear any malarkey about "Southern Heritage" either. They rebelled, they lost they pay the price. We have all cited tons of examples of what happens to losers of wars (we have even quoted Robert E Lee about why we dont need these statues) and the South is no different. They want to set up museums and historical sites for preservation that is fine. But it is time for them to realize the War is lost, The South Aint Risin' Again and they are part of America. They can keep themselves unhealthy and stupid if they so choose but it is time to move into the 21st Century. I dont care if it hurts their Southern Pride there are millions (read that again MILLIONS) of people who see these things and are not only disturbed, but are made to feel less than. Their right to feel like a person trumps a monument to a traitor.

After that, there is nothing else that is needed. There will be fights over racist names and such and those are different and immaterial here. (and will be fought on a case by case basis) There is no slippery slope because this doesnt compare to anything else. If the Nazis can be erased from Germany, if Stalin's name and statues can be taken away from Russia, if Saddam can have his monuments destroyed and even King George here then it is time to make sure the Confederacy and its racism are put where they belong...in the dirt and in the museum.
Click to expand...

Very good post, Handy. This is the type of discussion I was hoping for. :)
 
Re: POTUS 45.17 - Section 4 of Amendment 25

Some people have a driving need for the world to be binary. (That's got to be tiring.) "We have monuments or we don't have monuments. No gradients or sliding scales, those scare me, I'd have to think and make a decision, and then mommy and daddy might get mad at me." Probably goes back to potty training.

Conservatives seem to be more concerned with what other people have as opposed to what they, themselves, don't have. They'd prefer no one had health insurance, including themselves, rather than having health insurance along with someone who "doesn't deserve it."

Yes, the above does mean the white working class would nihilisticly elect a President to burn the country down rather than share it with the other.

Interesting post on political outlook - conservative or liberal - having some biological origins. I agree with that, to the point where I think at a certain point conservatism becomes a mental illness. Narcissism, paranoia, fear, violence, greed - I'm not saying conservatives have a monopoly on those things but those do inform a huge part of the conservative mindset and agenda. If conservatives were honest with themselves or had any ability for introspection - which they don't seem to have - even they'd have to admit, but owning their true motivations and feelings doesn't seem to be a thing with them anymore.

Wow, did the election of Obama rock some worlds. To paraphrase one of our Presidents, "who knew racism in this country was such a tough topic?"

Wealth inequality - any time you can't figure out why something is the way it is in this country...
 
Re: POTUS 45.17 - Section 4 of Amendment 25

Brenthoven said:
Referring to the bolded/underlined, do you think that's where it will end up? Again, honest question. If it's ALL monuments, does that include things like Mt Rushmore, which you previously mentioned?
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Did you invest in a crampon company?
 
Re: POTUS 45.17 - Section 4 of Amendment 25

A couple of interesting headlines from Politico:

Bannon: 'Trump presidency that we fought for, and won, is over'
Hawks Soaring After Bannon's Departure
 
Re: POTUS 45.17 - Section 4 of Amendment 25

There is no point I'm trying to make. I'm interested in a healthy discussion about monuments/memorials/etc.
 
dxmnkd316 said:
A couple of interesting headlines from Politico:

Bannon: 'Trump presidency that we fought for, and won, is over'
Hawks Soaring After Bannon's Departure
Click to expand...


I'd joke about WaPo or HuffPo or Time or any of them printing an "Is *THIS* the pivot for Trump's Presidency," article, but one of them probably already did.

Because it's like a commuter train that announced it was going Express with no stops till the end, and yet people still ask if the train will stop at the next station.
 
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Re: POTUS 45.17 - Section 4 of Amendment 25

aparch said:
I'd joke about WaPo or HuffPo or Time or any of them printing an "Is *THIS* the pivot for Trump's Presidency," article, but one of them probably already did.
Click to expand...

The first story on Politico this morning was this was "Trump's tenth worst week"
 
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