POTUS 45.15 - Now With More Yacht Banging Stories!

[alfablue]

Re: POTUS 45.15 - Now With More Yacht Banging Stories!

Is there a difference between debt and unfunded liabilities? I guess you can argue technically there is, but it's all the same in my eyes.

I live in Mass where everything is run by the dems. They have set the state on the path to serious financial issues down the road but it will take a bit of time. I'm not from here and not even registered to vote. I respect local people's right to run the state as they wish, even if I disagree with it.

I think Rover is talking a lot of sense. A lot of the reason that me and likely a lot of people on both sides vote the way they do is because it's in their blood.

One problem with the fault of unfunded liabilities is that funding situations change from when they started to when they get to finish. For instance in Detroit- the state decided to slow down it's payments to the cities, because they were having funding problems that can be traced directly to tax cuts that nobody needed. You make plans based on funding plans, and all of a sudden, they are changed for you without consent.

Not to say that Detroit was in the right- nobody wanted to admit that the city shrunk to an amount that had no justification to be funded.

But funded liabilities became unfunded liabilities based on some bad decisions from R's on the other side of the state.

And I will point out that the end result of enough unfunded liabilities was bankruptcy. So, yes, there IS a difference. A major one.

None the less, that does not prevent you from voting differently in local, state, and national elections. They all have different purposes, and different effects on the economy. And IMHO, it's hard to argue that some of the best economic times recently were when Democrats had control.

 

[Drew S.]

And that alone is reason to distrust what Rover is saying.

Ha, thanks for that!

 

[Rover]

Re: POTUS 45.15 - Now With More Yacht Banging Stories!

Something that the whities don't want to admit- that they have done a real number for a large part of minorities that live in cities by crushing their school systems. Especially when it was allowed to bias school funding based on the tax revenue instead of equal coverage across the state.

And the result of that is that minorities that have equal or slightly worse tests scores actually ARE better students just because of the intentional hurdles that have been placed in front of them.

Now we have a group of people who are part of that devastation and want to finalize the system on a college level.

Add that to the voting restrictions that are being placed on minorities, and the increased allowance of police actions onto minorities....

Funny how this is the 50th anniversary of the Detroit Uprising. Given how minorities are being treated, I can totally see that happening again, someplace. We've had some tastes of riots that were reasonably short.

Can someone explain how this is making America better?

Then people need to fuking VOTE! If socially conscious liberals keep staying home because they don't like the Dem's stance on 1 issue out of 100, you get the situation you describe. If minority voters are taking their cues from Colin Kapernak who stated that he sees no difference between the two parties on these issues, then you basically hand the keys over to the Republicans. This all seems pretty basic to me. I'm sorta wondering where it gets lost in translation.

 

[Fighting Sioux 23]

Re: POTUS 45.15 - Now With More Yacht Banging Stories!

And IMHO, it's hard to argue that some of the best economic times recently were when Democrats had control.

I agree. A slightly different take on this is when were the worst economic times (GDP shrinking by 2.5% or more) since World War II:

Recession of 1953: GDP shrank 2.6% - President: Dwight Eisenhower (R)
Recession of 1958: GDP shrank 3.7% - President: Dwight Eisenhower (R)
1973-1975 Recession: GDP shrank 3.2% - President: Richard Nixon (R)
Early 1980s Recession: GDP shrank 2.7% - President: Ronald Reagan (R)
Great Recession: GDP shrank 5.1% - President: George W. Bush (R)

EDIT: Just realized that every Republican President since World War II that was re-elected is responsible for at least 1 big recession. Shocking!

 

[jerphisch]

Re: POTUS 45.15 - Now With More Yacht Banging Stories!

See my other post. I think republicans deserve a lot of blame at the federal level and democrats deserve a lot of the blame at lower levels.

Because Democrats just dominate local politics? You may want to re-examine that thought...

 

[rufus]

Re: POTUS 45.15 - Now With More Yacht Banging Stories!

I agree. A slightly different take on this is when were the worst economic times (GDP shrinking by 2.5% or more) since World War II:

Recession of 1953: GDP shrank 2.6% - President: Dwight Eisenhower (R)
Recession of 1958: GDP shrank 3.7% - President: Dwight Eisenhower (R)
1973-1975 Recession: GDP shrank 3.2% - President: Richard Nixon (R)
Early 1980s Recession: GDP shrank 2.7% - President: Ronald Reagan (R)
Great Recession: GDP shrank 5.1% - President: George W. Bush (R)

EDIT: Just realized that every Republican President since World War II that was re-elected is responsible for at least 1 big recession. Shocking!

Well, that's just cause they have to deal with the disastrous economic policies of their Democratic predecessors.

But that Obama fella screwed up the economy all on his own.

 

[unofan]

I want to see us reduce debt, at all levels. Raising taxes is part of the solution, obviously, but I don't think it's the cure all you are lead to believe.

I think the part of the problem that gets completely overlooked is the state/municipal issues. There is a big difference between providing people with a comfortable living and completely giving away the farm. With democrats at local levels in a lot of cases it is the latter. IL and CT are the state's who have the most pressing issues right now but I can see other states having similar problems down the road.

At all levels of government there needs to be an attitude around 'buying' what we can afford. The republicans are guilty of running up the deficit at the federal level, but I think you'd find at local levels it is more the democrats who are responsible.

Kansas, Wisconsin, and Iowa frown on your partisan hackery.

 

[jerphisch]

Re: POTUS 45.15 - Now With More Yacht Banging Stories!

Something that the whities don't want to admit- that they have done a real number for a large part of minorities that live in cities by crushing their school systems. Especially when it was allowed to bias school funding based on the tax revenue instead of equal coverage across the state.

And the result of that is that minorities that have equal or slightly worse tests scores actually ARE better students just because of the intentional hurdles that have been placed in front of them.

Now we have a group of people who are part of that devastation and want to finalize the system on a college level.

Add that to the voting restrictions that are being placed on minorities, and the increased allowance of police actions onto minorities....

Funny how this is the 50th anniversary of the Detroit Uprising. Given how minorities are being treated, I can totally see that happening again, someplace. We've had some tastes of riots that were reasonably short.

Can someone explain how this is making America better?

Here is an excellent piece on current efforts to segregate school districts
https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2017/7/27/16004084/school-segregation-evolution

 

[Kepler]

Re: POTUS 45.15 - Now With More Yacht Banging Stories!

Ha, thanks for that!

It was right there on a tee...

 

[FadeToBlack&Gold]

Re: POTUS 45.15 - Now With More Yacht Banging Stories!

Why is free college a clap trap? I'm all for reforming education here. Let's do it like Germany- you get free college if you perform well and score high enough marks in high school. If you don't, you can go to a trade school.

"Free" college is nonsense because there are too many 18-22 year-olds who don't see the value in working hard for a credential, when it's being paid for by someone else (unless that someone else is an employer, but that's another matter). I also don't think a 4-year degree should be required for some of the jobs that now use it as a minimum standard. The "gift of gab" is not an academically teachable subject, so I shouldn't need a 4-year degree in Management or Marketing to get an entry-level sales or accounts job. On the other hand, I want my accountants to have a 4-year B.S. in Accounting from an accredited business program, and pass the CPA exam. I also definitely want my engineers to have a 4-year B.S. in an engineering discipline from an accredited engineering program, and pass the FE (and eventually PE) exam. You get the point.

I would like to see reform, and a return to a time when public universities and colleges were properly funded by their states, so that these ridiculous annual tuition increases can be cut back to normal 2-3% inflationary levels. I also believe there is far too much money spent on athletics (especially at the "big name" schools in each state), and I don't believe most university administrators deserve the massive salaries they get. If you want to go the "free" college route, there should be a way for the state to claw back that money from students who just dick around for a year or two, and flunk out. Companies that pay for their employees to get a degree, will often make them sign a legal agreement to remain with their employer for X amount of time, or else they owe the employer some of that money back if they depart early. Similar concept.

Healthcare should be socialized, because healthcare ought to be a fundamental human right. A college degree, from my point of view, is not.

 

[Drew S.]

"Free" college is nonsense because there are too many 18-22 year-olds who don't see the value in working hard for a credential, when it's being paid for by someone else (unless that someone else is an employer, but that's another matter). I also don't think a 4-year degree should be required for some of the jobs that now use it as a minimum standard. The "gift of gab" is not an academically teachable subject, so I shouldn't need a 4-year degree in Management or Marketing to get an entry-level sales or accounts job. On the other hand, I want my accountants to have a 4-year B.S. in Accounting from an accredited business program, and pass the CPA exam. I also definitely want my engineers to have a 4-year B.S. in an engineering discipline from an accredited engineering program, and pass the FE (and eventually PE) exam. You get the point.

I would like to see reform, and a return to a time when public universities and colleges were properly funded by their states, so that these ridiculous annual tuition increases can be cut back to normal 2-3% inflationary levels. I also believe there is far too much money spent on athletics (especially at the "big name" schools in each state), and I don't believe most university administrators deserve the massive salaries they get. If you want to go the "free" college route, there should be a way for the state to claw back that money from students who just dick around for a year or two, and flunk out. Companies that pay for their employees to get a degree, will often make them sign a legal agreement to remain with their employer for X amount of time, or else they owe the employer some of that money back if they depart early. Similar concept.

Healthcare should be socialized, because healthcare ought to be a fundamental human right. A college degree, from my point of view, is not.

Agree with a lot of this. I don't think a lot of people realize that a degree from a school like UMass doesn't do a lot of good by itself. I'd add that a lot of people who are 18 don't even know what they want to do. A lot of kids would be better served to work a for some time then think about going to college. Everyone is different and kids should have different paths to success.

 

[Kepler]

Re: POTUS 45.15 - Now With More Yacht Banging Stories!

Healthcare should be socialized, because healthcare ought to be a fundamental human right. A college degree, from my point of view, is not.

A "college degree" is not the same as an education. College is only one of many ways to get an education. There are all manner of animal training methods (job skills training, apprenticeship, etc) for those whose view of knowledge does not rise above the level of what can I use to buy sh-t with? And there are all manner of human experiences (academia, tutoring, etc) for those whose view of knowledge terminates at "I don't need to know how the toilet works, I pay people for that." And of course there are gray areas between those two false dichotomies.

We are fast approaching the point where we can afford to subsidize human flourishing. We already do it with welfare for the arts and for business. It is as or more important to do it with health and education. At the end of the day, the government exists to serve the people, not the ruling junta.

 

[FadeToBlack&Gold]

Re: POTUS 45.15 - Now With More Yacht Banging Stories!

Oof. Even Rasmussen has him below 40%. That's a bad sign.

Rasmussen even has him below 40% when you limit the sample to "registered and/or likely voters" (which I prefer). Ouch.

 

[alfablue]

Re: POTUS 45.15 - Now With More Yacht Banging Stories!

Here is an excellent piece on current efforts to segregate school districts
https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2017/7/27/16004084/school-segregation-evolution

What's funny about that- one policy that our Education Secretary wants- school of choice, does that without any effort. And legally.

The concept of "school of choice" is fine, when you try to make schools be better than each other.

But it sucks when you realize that it only works for people who can actually make the choice. If you don't have the means to have your kid go to the other side of the city, tough luck.

And it sucks when the bad schools are not improved, but closed. Making #1 point even worse.

It's been well illustrated here in Michigan that as soon as school of choice was implemented, there was major white flight from a lot of integrated schools. And it was easier than the previous "white flight" because people didn't have to move- they just had to send their kids to a different school.

Great idea, but actual practice is so much worse, it's not funny.

(Charter schools are another pet-peeve of mine, but it's not as related to the segregation issues)


What really sucks for me- we are going to end up with the same solutions to problems that we've always had- as we are not changing the pool of people we get to solve problems. I've seen the beauty of diversity, and if you really think it's evil to give some kid a chance who did slightly worse on an entrance exam from a crappy segregated down turn school vs. some nominal majority kid- you are very much missing out. It would be so nice if we could get the people who think diversity is some evil thing to just move together in one state, so that the rest of us can prosper with real diversity... what a dream.

 

[alfablue]

Re: POTUS 45.15 - Now With More Yacht Banging Stories!

We are fast approaching the point where we can afford to subsidize human flourishing. We already do it with welfare for the arts and for business. It is as or more important to do it with health and education. At the end of the day, the government exists to serve the people, not the ruling junta.

You communist.

Which makes a great idea a total non-starter.

Ironic that we can have state support of big business- which is massively socialistic or communistic, but not for individuals. Oh, and the Constitution clearly points out that we are allowed to tax for the welfare of the people.

BTW, we attack countries that subsidize industries that sell stuff in the US, but we hand out subsidies in the form of lower taxes to select industries. What's the real difference? Money is money- a tax break is the same as a subsidy- more money for the company.

(edit- have you considered travelling to Cuba? It's pretty darned interesting)

 

[Kepler]

Re: POTUS 45.15 - Now With More Yacht Banging Stories!

Tillerson turns down Congressionally-allocated funding to counteract Russian disinformation campaigns in US because that would offend... Russia.

 

[geezer]

Re: POTUS 45.15 - Now With More Yacht Banging Stories!

It's been well illustrated here in Michigan that as soon as school of choice was implemented, there was major white flight from a lot of integrated schools. And it was easier than the previous "white flight" because people didn't have to move- they just had to send their kids to a different school.

I was honestly unaware of this (I'm in the U.P., we just have the one black guy) Do you remember a good source for actual data? The More You Know...
edit: MSU says the opposite is true, that diversity increased as Detroit kids entered suburban schools. Is this now outdated?
edit again: "Bridge" Magazine says you are right.

edit 3: Based on my exhaustive 5 minutes of research, the segregation attributed to school choice is being driven by classism, not racism. The rich kids are collecting in rich schools where there are a lot of booster-funded extracurriculars, and the poor kids, often racial minorities, are forced to stay in walking distance of their school.

 

[FadeToBlack&Gold]

Re: POTUS 45.15 - Now With More Yacht Banging Stories!

I was honestly unaware of this (I'm in the U.P., we just have the one black guy)

And he's always in the weight room at the SDC, training for football season.

 

[geezer]

Re: POTUS 45.15 - Now With More Yacht Banging Stories!

And he's always in the weight room at the SDC, training for football season.

We used to have 3, but Braun and tDarkness both left.

 

[MaizeRage]

Re: POTUS 45.15 - Now With More Yacht Banging Stories!

I also don't think a 4-year degree should be required for some of the jobs that now use it as a minimum standard.

Healthcare should be socialized, because healthcare ought to be a fundamental human right. A college degree, from my point of view, is not.

You hit on the problem. Most of those same jobs don't really require a high school diploma either, but at a certain point in our history, that became the educational minimum to find decent employment, so we (at least attempt to) offer free, equal access to a high school education. Fifty+ years later, that has evolved into a four-year degree being the minimum. I don't think there's any going back in terms of mandating a private business' hiring requirements, so the best solution is making sure people have access to the education they need to be competitive.

(By the way, the same is true for pre-K education, which is probably more important and a much larger separator of the haves and have-nots than people realize. Sadly, the candidate that proposed free pre-K and free college was deemed "not exciting enough" by the people who could have benefited from it.)

EDIT: I should also add: I really don't think a generation that has evolved to survive with a gig economy can be considered lazier than someone who was able to punch in at Ford's at 16 and punch out at 65.

The solution is to end local funding of school districts. Have schools funded per head at the state or even the federal level. If the choice is between sh-tty suburban schools and nice urban schools, suburbanites will suck it up and pay for nice urban schools so their kid can go to a nice suburban school. It's exactly the same problem as with health care. Some things are too important to be rationed by wealth. It is immoral to ration education by wealth.

The problem from my perspective is that most, if not all schools are already underfunded. A certain type likes to point to the fact that per pupil spending in bad (read: inner city, read: black) schools is at or near what is being spent at better(suburban, whiter) schools. Minneapolis school district is around $14K of total funding per pupil, whereas my decent suburban home district is like $11,500. But my district more than makes up the difference in hidden user costs: a laundry list of school supplies we have to buy every fall, monthly, if not more often school fundraisers, and parent volunteers in classrooms on a daily basis. A good percentage of the MPLS district doesn't have those kind of options at their disposal.