POTUS 45.12: Dan, does it take courage when encountering the covfefe?

[trixR4kids]

Re: POTUS 45.12: Dan, does it take courage when encountering the covfefe?

IDK about that, I guess if you assume that going that route will hurt dem turnout then sure, but IDK if I buy that. The people that hate "SOCIALISM ZOMG" are generally on the right anyhow and will vote against anything dems want regardless.

 

[Rover]

Re: POTUS 45.12: Dan, does it take courage when encountering the covfefe?

Medicare for all is like scrapping the tax code for a consumption tax. It sounds great in theory to the people proposing it but they underestimate how much hay the opposition (corp oligarchs, knuckledraggers, sheep like GOP Congresscritters) will make out of the proposal due to the complexity of getting it implemented. This is before you get into any of the merits of the proposal itself.

A classic mistake Obama made. The effect of the policies he was proposing/implementing will cut through all the noise. No, it doesn't as he learned the really hard way.

BUT, if you want to screw the right, don't open with Medicare for all. Put their balls in a vice with expanded Medicare to those 50+ where they can buy into the program. Job loss/age discrimination is a real problem and people nearing retirement age don't necessarily want to engage in the "gig economy". Allowing them to buy in before they turn 65 is something even most righty voters will support, and potentially puts the GOP at odds with their main supporters.

This would have universal appeal with Dems from Sanders to Manchin and everyone in between. Run on this, keep it simple, and then once in office tack on expanded Medicaid, which is the same principle only that people who qualify for subsidies on the exchanges can buy into Medicaid at the same rate as they're paying out of pocket now for health insurance. No, its not 100% single payer but it covers a lot of ground.

 

[Kepler]

Re: POTUS 45.12: Dan, does it take courage when encountering the covfefe?

They need to talk about jobs too, which will be easy when Trump's promise to bring back manufacturing and coal jobs is already circling the bowl, but you can't just attack Trump. They need a plan of their own.

Dems always need to talk about jobs, like the GOP always has to talk about "the hollow military." It's baked in.

 

[Kepler]

Re: POTUS 45.12: Dan, does it take courage when encountering the covfefe?

If they run on that in 2018 they will lose any chance they have at the House. You would effectively shift the fight in favor of the GOP because for as bad as their plan is, in many people's eyes it is better than SOCIALISM!!! (because they dont understand) You would kill the one thing you have going for you by trying too much too soon.

If the Dems want to go for Universal they have to wait until the ACHA goes into effect and destroys lives. Then in the next cycle you hit home with Universal and people will be fed up enough to ignore the BS. People hated ObamaCare until they realized they had it and were going to be screwed without it...they will hate Universal Health Care until they need it.

You gotta make them come to you if you try dragging them along when they arent ready it blows up in your face. (see: Gay Rights, Trans Rights...every other Progressive Idea the last 8 years)

So you're going with 3) Let the Republicans murder a few thousand people and word will get around.

OK.

 

[mookie1995]

It's so funny how much they hate Elizabeth Warren, Nancy Pelosi, and Hillary Clinton. Three woman who have done more for them then any of their elected Orcs combined. The delusion in this country is so strong I don't think anyone can break it.

Pocahontas can have a go at it. Hilly had hers 25yrs ago and blew it.

 

[Kepler]

Re: POTUS 45.12: Dan, does it take courage when encountering the covfefe?

Medicare for all is like scrapping the tax code for a consumption tax. It sounds great in theory to the people proposing it but they underestimate how much hay the opposition (corp oligarchs, knuckledraggers, sheep like GOP Congresscritters) will make out of the proposal due to the complexity of getting it implemented. This is before you get into any of the merits of the proposal itself.

A classic mistake Obama made. The effect of the policies he was proposing/implementing will cut through all the noise. No, it doesn't as he learned the really hard way.

BUT, if you want to screw the right, don't open with Medicare for all. Put their balls in a vice with expanded Medicare to those 50+ where they can buy into the program. Job loss/age discrimination is a real problem and people nearing retirement age don't necessarily want to engage in the "gig economy". Allowing them to buy in before they turn 65 is something even most righty voters will support, and potentially puts the GOP at odds with their main supporters.

This would have universal appeal with Dems from Sanders to Manchin and everyone in between. Run on this, keep it simple, and then once in office tack on expanded Medicaid, which is the same principle only that people who qualify for subsidies on the exchanges can buy into Medicaid at the same rate as they're paying out of pocket now for health insurance. No, its not 100% single payer but it covers a lot of ground.

I'm not sure I agree with your first point, but you're right that implementation will be the killer with any system (even the GOP's Malevolent Neglect Care). It would be kinda gratifying to see the GOP hoist on their own petard, but I genuinely worry the longer they occupy office the less likely we will have free and fair elections. They're playing for keeps and they've never believed in democracy anyway.

 

[Rover]

Re: POTUS 45.12: Dan, does it take courage when encountering the covfefe?

I'm not sure I agree with your first point, but you're right that implementation will be the killer with any system (even the GOP's Malevolent Neglect Care). It would be kinda gratifying to see the GOP hoist on their own petard, but I genuinely worry the longer they occupy office the less likely we will have free and fair elections. They're playing for keeps and they've never believed in democracy anyway.

I always think back to Howard Dean's statement when he was DNC chair. "Republicans want to tell you one thing they know about a couple of issues. Democrats want to tell you everything they know about every issue." Or something like that. Anyways, good luck defending Medicare for all and explaining the detailed benefits to cries of "SOCIALIZZZZMMM" and don't expect any help from the lamestream media. I have no problem with the concept myself although I of course have many questions about how this would come about. Dems need to start going out of their way to screw the GOP for the good of the country, something their officeholders are far too reluctant to do. Expand Medicare to essentially age 50, and Medicaid to pretty much everyone up to a certain point above the poverty line and libs are halfway home to their ultimate goal.

 

[ScoobyDoo]

Re: POTUS 45.12: Dan, does it take courage when encountering the covfefe?

Pocahontas can have a go at it. Hilly had hers 25yrs ago and blew it.

She'll fail just like all the rest. Kepler likes Kamala Harris. I do too. She has no shot. John McCain treated her like **** and virtually no one cared. No woman is going to get elected President.

 

[WeAreNDHockey]

Re: POTUS 45.12: Dan, does it take courage when encountering the covfefe?

She'll fail just like all the rest. Kepler likes Kamala Harris. I do too. She has no shot. John McCain treated her like **** and virtually no one cared. No woman is going to get elected President.

There are any number of women currently residing in the world of politics that would make effective, maybe even great presidents. And I hope none of them get a sniff of the 2020 nomination. This country is not ready to elect a woman president. If it was, it would have. Just like our feelings about guns and "socialized" medicine, we are kinda unique in this regard compared to a lot of the world. I would think it will happen, and unless I don't have as many of these elections left in me as I hope, in my lifetime. Maybe it could happen in 2020, but if we still have a democracy left to vote for then, I don't want to lose our last chance at preserving it because the democrats insisted on making the statement again. I almost feel bad typing those words, but I think they're true. I'll tell you one thing, if you want to have whatever faith you might have in humanity dashed, go knock on doors during a presidential election. When a gay, black woman can vote for a guy like trump (yes, I spoke with one in a Cleveland suburb), you question every last thing you thought you believed.

 

[Handyman]

Re: POTUS 45.12: Dan, does it take courage when encountering the covfefe?

IDK about that, I guess if you assume that going that route will hurt dem turnout then sure, but IDK if I buy that. The people that hate "SOCIALISM ZOMG" are generally on the right anyhow and will vote against anything dems want regardless.

Plenty of Dems flinch at Socialism too. If they didnt Obama wouldnt have settled for ObamaCare.

The Dems need to start playing like they understand the big picture or they will keep losing.

And dont fool yourself...the people who hate Universal Health Care will change their tune when it hits them in the face that they need it. It isnt just Libs ticked off over the repealing of ObamaCare.

 

[Handyman]

Re: POTUS 45.12: Dan, does it take courage when encountering the covfefe?

Not my problem. That's why they're called the knucks. Sometimes, they need a good dragging.

It will be if it keeps the House Red and keeps Don in office.

 

[jerphisch]

Re: POTUS 45.12: Dan, does it take courage when encountering the covfefe?

Reported in a German paper that Trump knew Syria dropped a conventional bomb not sarin before he launched our attack, and before he went on TV and shed his crocodile tears for the gassed beautiful children. Russia provided us details of the attack days in advance.

 

[Handyman]

Re: POTUS 45.12: Dan, does it take courage when encountering the covfefe?

So you're going with 3) Let the Republicans murder a few thousand people and word will get around.

OK.

And how much more will be effected when your plan craps the bed? (which it will) People are dumb they need to have it fall in their lap or they dont see it. Right now they see a health care plan that is horrid...let that be the way it is framed from now til the midterms. Let the midterms be the referendum. If the Dems take the House than you take a stab at it in 2020 but if not then you have zero chance anyways.

Those people you think are getting murdered (please) are dead anyways. Nothing is stopping the plan from going through so why take the focus off that by putting forth an idea guaranteed to look worse. (and one the Dems never have the stones to defend anyways) This is a timebomb...let it go off. If you are playing poker and someone is betting into a hand they have zero chance to win you dont fold. You let them bet every penny they got until they either go broke or make a better decision.

Its time for the Dems to start realizing if they want to fix things they need to play the game.

 

[Handyman]

Re: POTUS 45.12: Dan, does it take courage when encountering the covfefe?

Reported in a German paper that Trump knew Syria dropped a conventional bomb not sarin before he launched our attack, and before he went on TV and shed his crocodile tears for the gassed beautiful children. Russia provided us details of the attack days in advance.

Everyone keep your twitter feed open

 

[ScoobyDoo]

Re: POTUS 45.12: Dan, does it take courage when encountering the covfefe?

Reported in a German paper that Trump knew Syria dropped a conventional bomb not sarin before he launched our attack, and before he went on TV and shed his crocodile tears for the gassed beautiful children. Russia provided us details of the attack days in advance.

Uh oh.

 

[leswp1]

Re: POTUS 45.12: Dan, does it take courage when encountering the covfefe?

If Bernie/Whoever can make this argument stick (From Bernie's Medicare for all page)
https://berniesanders.com/medicareforall/
Cause somehow the Republican plan increases that amount big time. People will vote with their wallets and if this is true and doable it should fly.

They won't vote with their wallets because they are still drinking the Koolaid that only those city getto trash will lose their benefits. And when the lose them they will hear some excuse and still not get it.

I get they hate Hillary because 25 years of constant derp on Hate Radio does leave a mark.

I get how they hate Nancy because, in all honesty, as a 50+ male, Nancy's affect is hideously off-putting to me. She is Central Casting for the prudish, pushy old maid. Sexist? Sure? Probably agist too. But it's a real feeling.

But I honestly don't get how they hate Liz. I know she's professorial and that makes the really dumb ones afraid, just like with Obama, but as Santorum said we will never get the dumb ones anyway. But why is the perfectly competent guy I only see at Home Depot or Glory Days hating on Liz? When she speaks it's nothing but sincerity, and it makes good common sense.

I'm asking honestly. What's to hate with Liz? I know the RWNM has been demonizing her, but that goes without saying for anyone with a "D." Why does it stick, with her?

I am a woman of the certain age and Nancy makes me grit my teeth. Too far to the left and not realistic.
THey hate Liz because she is articulate, speaks in full sentences and is fairly logical. She usually talks facts and numbers. Scary stuff for a party that doesn't like facts, numbers or thinking people.

If they run on that in 2018 they will lose any chance they have at the House. You would effectively shift the fight in favor of the GOP because for as bad as their plan is, in many people's eyes it is better than SOCIALISM!!! (because they dont understand) You would kill the one thing you have going for you by trying too much too soon.

If the Dems want to go for Universal they have to wait until the ACHA goes into effect and destroys lives. Then in the next cycle you hit home with Universal and people will be fed up enough to ignore the BS. People hated ObamaCare until they realized they had it and were going to be screwed without it...they will hate Universal Health Care until they need it.

You gotta make them come to you if you try dragging them along when they arent ready it blows up in your face. (see: Gay Rights, Trans Rights...every other Progressive Idea the last 8 years)

I tried asking this question of my over the deep end Right winger- favorite replies are- "socializzzm!!!1!1!" and that X country with socialized medicine sucks. So the f/u question that I never get an answer to- Why do you want us to use a program that you say fails? Aren't we supposed to be smarter than everyone else? Why can't we create something that works? Crickets then "socializzzm is bad!!!1!1!" and the $$ argument. It costs us so much more having unhealthy people over utilizing ERs, ICUs, etc than if we were to actually do things to keep them healthy.

Another question I want someone to answer- how do all these Christians (loosely used- I am pretty sure Jesus would smite most of them) reconcile the abandonment of vast numbers of our population as far as feeding the poor, caring for the sick? Pence is so "Christian" he can't talk to a woman without his wife but he can encourage people to support a measure that will screw those Jesus tells him to care for.

 

[leswp1]

Re: POTUS 45.12: Dan, does it take courage when encountering the covfefe?

oooops! they decided to delay the vote on the 'Healthcare' bill. This should be interesting. All those GOP folks now need to go home and listen to panicked people. Now if people can figure out how to present what this Bill actually does. I would love it if there was a way to create a FB app that you could plug in your demographic and have it tell you what you qualified for/what would happen. Not politicized. Just what you get with each proposal.

Listening this AM they were trying to sell the story that it would be cheaper and more people could afford insurance so the 22M number was off. Yeah. OK

 

[Kepler]

Re: POTUS 45.12: Dan, does it take courage when encountering the covfefe?

Kepler likes Kamala Harris. I do too...

Since Comey / Sessions I am more leaning towards Harris as a Veep candidate. She is a great pit bull, but she's too much a technocrat to be inspiring.

Pretty Boy with Poofy Hair / Harris 2020.

 

[jerphisch]

Re: POTUS 45.12: Dan, does it take courage when encountering the covfefe?

Listening this AM they were trying to sell the story that it would be cheaper and more people could afford insurance so the 22M number was off. Yeah. OK

That's the story everyone has been selling the last few days, make it affordable, drive the costs down! They neglect to mention it will be affordable because nothing will be covered, but who has time for the details.

 

[ScoobyDoo]

Re: POTUS 45.12: Dan, does it take courage when encountering the covfefe?

That's the story everyone has been selling the last few days, make it affordable, drive the costs down! They neglect to mention it will be affordable because nothing will be covered, but who has time for the details.

Someone wrote on op ed to that affect in the paper. Some people actually believe that it will do what they say it will do despite overwhelming evidence to the contrary. It's like every issue the Republicans fight is exactly like Climate Change.