POTUS 45.1 - You take the high road and I'll take the low road

[SJHovey]

Re: POTUS 45.1 - You take the high road and I'll take the low road

More false equivalency.

What exactly am I equating it to? That's my opinion, which I've stated before and now stated again. I can't help it that you guys are all over the board with these things.

 

[ScoobyDoo]

Re: POTUS 45.1 - You take the high road and I'll take the low road

I believe my comments about Executive Orders and Obama came about in the context that his expansion of their use was one of only two real criticisms I had of his administration. I'm pretty sure every time Obama issued an Executive Order I wasn't in here whining in the political threads. Don't expect me to do so now that Trump is issuing them. I've stated my opinion on Executive Orders, and most of you disagreed with me, even though I warned that no party stays in power forever.

Obama never issued an executive order that defecated on the Statue of Liberty. Facts matter. Context matters.

 

[dxmnkd316]

Re: POTUS 45.1 - You take the high road and I'll take the low road

I'm pretty sure every time Obama issued an Executive Order I wasn't in here whining in the political threads.

What is the point of this sentence?

 

[joecct]

Re: POTUS 45.1 - You take the high road and I'll take the low road

It will take a courageous president to tell Congress that the days of governing by executive order and the Federal Register are over. If they don't legislate it and write how they want it implemented, it ain't happening.

 

[mookie1995]

Re: POTUS 45.1 - You take the high road and I'll take the low road

What kind of answer is "lets make a new country"?

Do you honestly think that is a possibility???

You think it's easier to make a new country than for the US to increase it's accepting of refugees by two orders of magnitude?

The only reason that we don't accept more refugees is not because we can't, it's because you are afraid. That's it.

On the other hand, there MASSIVE reasons why a new country can't be formed that we can dump all the refugees to. But you don't want to accept them.

israel was created from scratch.

all the former yugoslavias were created overnight.

 

[BassAle]

Re: POTUS 45.1 - You take the high road and I'll take the low road

What is the point of this sentence?

to say that people that are upset over President Bannon's fascist executive orders are just whining that 'their side' lost the election, and that what Trump is doing is okay 'because Obama'

 

[Kepler]

Re: POTUS 45.1 - You take the high road and I'll take the low road

anyone else wondering what President Bannon's '30 day plan for defeating ISIS' will be? It's got to include massive numbers of boots on the ground, right? There is nothing else they could do that would have much affect in 30 days -- this isn't a problem you can fix quickly. Is Trump going to start a massive war in the middle east?

An ultimatum for unconditional surrender or...

 

[Drew S.]

What kind of answer is "lets make a new country"?

Do you honestly think that is a possibility???

You think it's easier to make a new country than for the US to increase it's accepting of refugees by two orders of magnitude?

The only reason that we don't accept more refugees is not because we can't, it's because you are afraid. That's it.

On the other hand, there MASSIVE reasons why a new country can't be formed that we can dump all the refugees to. But you don't want to accept them.

Practically speaking, where are you going to put them? The places where they are going to be most comfortable and most likely to succeed there are already housing shortages (not to mention very high prices).

 

[BassAle]

Re: POTUS 45.1 - You take the high road and I'll take the low road

israel was created from scratch.

all the former yugoslavias were created overnight.

that's worked out really well.

 

[Kepler]

Re: POTUS 45.1 - You take the high road and I'll take the low road

all the former yugoslavias were created overnight

No, they weren't. They were individual provinces that existed under Yugoslavia, which was organized as a federation. Most of them had been independent previously (Serbia, Bosnia-Herzegovina) or had been self-governing regions within the Austro-Hungarian Empire (Slovenia, Croatia).

Strategy & Tactics has an article this month about how Croatia and Slovenia declared their independence from Yugoslavia (which was really a tool for Serbia to control their neighbors). In fact they simply re-purposed exactly the same military and state apparatus that had existed during the Federation period.

 

[mookie1995]

Re: POTUS 45.1 - You take the high road and I'll take the low road

No, they weren't. They were individual provinces that existed under Yugoslavia, which was organized as a federation. Many of them had been independent previously (Serbia, Bosnia-Herzegovina).

one day they didn't have UN seats, the next day they did.

the defense rests...

 

[SJHovey]

Re: POTUS 45.1 - You take the high road and I'll take the low road

What is the point of this sentence?

The point of the sentence is that Kepler implied I was being hypocritical because back when Obama was president I posted that Executive Orders were bad, but I haven't (or at least hadn't before today) re-posted that exact same opinion since Trump took office. I just wanted to remind him that I was not a poster who came in here and complained every single time an Executive Order was issued by Obama. As it happens, on election day, I simply stated my opinion that it was a bad practice. It's not my opinion on Executive Orders that's changed.

 

[BassAle]

Re: POTUS 45.1 - You take the high road and I'll take the low road

one day they didn't have UN seats, the next day they did.

the defense rests...

Is reestablishing independence somehow the same as moving millions of people into some newly created artificial country?

 

[joecct]

No, they weren't. They were individual provinces that existed under Yugoslavia, which was organized as a federation. Many of them had been independent previously (Serbia, Bosnia-Herzegovina).

Strategy & Tactics has an article this month about how Croatia and Slovenia declared their independence from Yugoslavia (which was really a tool for Serbia to control their neighbors). In fact they simply re-purposed exactly the same military and state apparatus that had existed during the Federation period.

You're both right. Versailles tried to glue various "tribes" together to form new countries. The idea lasted around 80 years. Assimilaton is a tough sell.

The USSR broke up along similar lines, though I wonder if Moscow was secretly delighted to lose the -stans.

 

[Kepler]

Re: POTUS 45.1 - You take the high road and I'll take the low road

one day they didn't have UN seats, the next day they did.

the defense rests...

The defense is evading the whole point that to create a new country you need to have the existing infrastructure, social cohesion, and most importantly the Will To Be A Nation.

There are places you can do that today: Kurdistan, Waziristan, Transnistria, Chechnia, Tibet. But other than the Kurds there's no ready-made "state" for the Middle Eastern refugees to create. Well, I mean there is -- Daesh is trying to create a Caliphate -- but I don't think that's what you have in mind.

 

[ScoobyDoo]

Re: POTUS 45.1 - You take the high road and I'll take the low road

The point of the sentence is that Kepler implied I was being hypocritical because back when Obama was president I posted that Executive Orders were bad, but I haven't (or at least hadn't before today) re-posted that exact same opinion since Trump took office. I just wanted to remind him that I was not a poster who came in here and complained every single time an Executive Order was issued by Obama. As it happens, on election day, I simply stated my opinion that it was a bad practice. It's not my opinion on Executive Orders that's changed.

Context matters.

https://fivethirtyeight.com/datalab/every-presidents-executive-actions-in-one-chart/

 

[SJHovey]

Re: POTUS 45.1 - You take the high road and I'll take the low road

Obama never issued an executive order that defecated on the Statue of Liberty. Facts matter. Context matters.

Boy, you guys are still missing the point.

Honestly, I doubt I could even tell you the subject matter of three executive orders issued by Obama. For all I know I might actually like some of them. But that ain't the point.

My point made last year is that the practice is horrible. Furthermore, every president, regardless of his or her persuasion, will love the power and will only expand it, and the more rapidly we expand it (as Obama did) the closer we are to dictatorship. Sitting and analyzing whether we actually like the presidential fiat or not, then basing our opinion of Executive Orders in general on that, is the real danger. We have to take the position they are all bad, whether we like the subject matter or not. That is my position. I doubt it's yours.

 

[Drew S.]

Obama never issued an executive order that defecated on the Statue of Liberty. Facts matter. Context matters.

Try telling a poor gun owner on Social Security that.

 

[burd]

Re: POTUS 45.1 - You take the high road and I'll take the low road

Boy, you guys are still missing the point.

Honestly, I doubt I could even tell you the subject matter of three executive orders issued by Obama. For all I know I might actually like some of them. But that ain't the point.

My point made last year is that the practice is horrible. Furthermore, every president, regardless of his or her persuasion, will love the power and will only expand it, and the more rapidly we expand it (as Obama did) the closer we are to dictatorship. Sitting and analyzing whether we actually like the presidential fiat or not, then basing our opinion of Executive Orders in general on that, is the real danger. We have to take the position they are all bad, whether we like the subject matter or not. That is my position. I doubt it's yours.

Your comments about expansion of the practice do not appear supported by the figures provided in the source cited by Scooby.

But I may be missing the point. Has happened before.

 

[ScoobyDoo]

Re: POTUS 45.1 - You take the high road and I'll take the low road

Boy, you guys are still missing the point.

Honestly, I doubt I could even tell you the subject matter of three executive orders issued by Obama. For all I know I might actually like some of them. But that ain't the point.

My point made last year is that the practice is horrible. Furthermore, every president, regardless of his or her persuasion, will love the power and will only expand it, and the more rapidly we expand it (as Obama did) the closer we are to dictatorship. Sitting and analyzing whether we actually like the presidential fiat or not, then basing our opinion of Executive Orders in general on that, is the real danger. We have to take the position they are all bad, whether we like the subject matter or not. That is my position. I doubt it's yours.

Again, context matters. Your blanket statement about executive orders ignores history.