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Potsdam Penalized by NCAA for Violating Financial Aid Rules
- Thread starter LakerFan99
- Start date
Russell Jaslow
Registered User
Re: Potsdam Penalized by NCAA for Violating Financial Aid Rules
But seriously, it really shouldn't change the ratio. Using your logic, if the school is near the border, than they should also have a larger percentage of non-athlete Canadians attending.
But they don't. Thus, the NCAA sees it as a means to only attract hockey players.
If no rule is in place, then how do you propose a system to make sure Division III schools are not providing defacto hockey scholarships?
Seriously, I really want to know what your answer/solution is.
(Remy has the real problem stated nicely. What happens if all intentions are met, and then the non-athletes decide not to show up? Do you have to tell the athletes you can no longer have the aid? That is a real conundrum. In some ways, this is what happened at Potsdam, except it was the school that stopped trying to get non-athlete Canadians to attend.)
But seriously, it really shouldn't change the ratio. Using your logic, if the school is near the border, than they should also have a larger percentage of non-athlete Canadians attending.
But they don't. Thus, the NCAA sees it as a means to only attract hockey players.
If no rule is in place, then how do you propose a system to make sure Division III schools are not providing defacto hockey scholarships?
Seriously, I really want to know what your answer/solution is.
(Remy has the real problem stated nicely. What happens if all intentions are met, and then the non-athletes decide not to show up? Do you have to tell the athletes you can no longer have the aid? That is a real conundrum. In some ways, this is what happened at Potsdam, except it was the school that stopped trying to get non-athlete Canadians to attend.)
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Russell Jaslow
Registered User
Re: Potsdam Penalized by NCAA for Violating Financial Aid Rules
BTW, the rule is very well defined and very consistent (NCAA Bylaw 15.4.1-(d)). In that regard, I don't think you can criticize the NCAA.
Yes, I know their interpretation changed, and they admitted that during the Geneseo/Bufflao State situation, but they did send letters out informing the schools they were going to look at it differently, and gave schools time to correct any issues according to the new interpretations. I think the NCAA was pretty above board with all that.
BTW, the rule is very well defined and very consistent (NCAA Bylaw 15.4.1-(d)). In that regard, I don't think you can criticize the NCAA.
Yes, I know their interpretation changed, and they admitted that during the Geneseo/Bufflao State situation, but they did send letters out informing the schools they were going to look at it differently, and gave schools time to correct any issues according to the new interpretations. I think the NCAA was pretty above board with all that.
norm1909
Larry Normandin
Re: Potsdam Penalized by NCAA for Violating Financial Aid Rules
I don't think a 1 year deviation would matter, particularly if they can show accepted offers within the ratios, the NCAA is aware that unlike Division I, Division III student athletes can go wherever they desire. If a second consecutive year were to occur, the NCAA would likely need to see a plan to remedy the situation.
But seriously, it really shouldn't change the ratio. Using your logic, if the school is near the border, than they should also have a larger percentage of non-athlete Canadians attending.
But they don't. Thus, the NCAA sees it as a means to only attract hockey players.
If no rule is in place, then how do you propose a system to make sure Division III schools are not providing defacto hockey scholarships?
Seriously, I really want to know what your answer/solution is.
(Remy has the real problem stated nicely. What happens if all intentions are met, and then the non-athletes decide not to show up? Do you have to tell the athletes you can no longer have the aid? That is a real conundrum. In some ways, this is what happened at Potsdam, except it was the school that stopped trying to get non-athlete Canadians to attend.)
I don't think a 1 year deviation would matter, particularly if they can show accepted offers within the ratios, the NCAA is aware that unlike Division I, Division III student athletes can go wherever they desire. If a second consecutive year were to occur, the NCAA would likely need to see a plan to remedy the situation.
Birdwatcher
Registered User
Re: Potsdam Penalized by NCAA for Violating Financial Aid Rules
Correct if I am wrong, but i don't believe it matters if the student is from Canada or North Bangor, NY. if they receive the financial package they count in the academic/athlete ratio.
Correct if I am wrong, but i don't believe it matters if the student is from Canada or North Bangor, NY. if they receive the financial package they count in the academic/athlete ratio.
Re: Potsdam Penalized by NCAA for Violating Financial Aid Rules
If the percentage of athletes with the package is significantly different from the percentage of athletes in the entire student body, the NCAA deems that a problem. I hope they actually use a statistical hypothesis test to make that determination, because otherwise there can be big issues with small sample sizes. For example suppose, there is an academic package that is taken by one athlete and 3 non-athletes on a campus with 11% athletes. Thats more than twice the ratio, 25% vs. 11% but it isn't statistically significant. I hope the NCAA understands the meaning of the term significant.
My example is extreme and unlikely, but even with moderate numbers, it could be an issue
If the percentage of athletes with the package is significantly different from the percentage of athletes in the entire student body, the NCAA deems that a problem. I hope they actually use a statistical hypothesis test to make that determination, because otherwise there can be big issues with small sample sizes. For example suppose, there is an academic package that is taken by one athlete and 3 non-athletes on a campus with 11% athletes. Thats more than twice the ratio, 25% vs. 11% but it isn't statistically significant. I hope the NCAA understands the meaning of the term significant.
My example is extreme and unlikely, but even with moderate numbers, it could be an issue
PSUChamps2001
Member of the REAL Zoo Crew
No it has to do with international aid packages...
PSUChamps2001
Member of the REAL Zoo Crew
And does it go in reverse...if you give 85 FA packegs to non athlets to help support a band or drama club and only 15 to sports does the drama club lose theirs?
Birdwatcher
Registered User
Re: Potsdam Penalized by NCAA for Violating Financial Aid Rules
Good then! Recruit the Boston area and similar US areas and give them whatever it takes because it won't cause a violation!! This makes no sense, a financial aid package is a financial aid package.
Good then! Recruit the Boston area and similar US areas and give them whatever it takes because it won't cause a violation!! This makes no sense, a financial aid package is a financial aid package.
Re: Potsdam Penalized by NCAA for Violating Financial Aid Rules
Only if the band or drama club is NCAA sanctioned.
Does seem unfair doesn't it. Actually i'd rather see the whole issue resolved by comparing the size of the awards, not not the source. I believe that used to be the case until this new interpretation was introduced. In fact your suggestions opens a whole new way of finding loopholes. Is there a drama scholarship that is under utilized by athletes? Tell that new goalie he's going to be a drama major...
Only if the band or drama club is NCAA sanctioned.
Does seem unfair doesn't it. Actually i'd rather see the whole issue resolved by comparing the size of the awards, not not the source. I believe that used to be the case until this new interpretation was introduced. In fact your suggestions opens a whole new way of finding loopholes. Is there a drama scholarship that is under utilized by athletes? Tell that new goalie he's going to be a drama major...
Russell Jaslow
Registered User
Re: Potsdam Penalized by NCAA for Violating Financial Aid Rules
Not at all. The bottom line is Division III can not give sports specific financial aid. If hockey schools offer these great packages to Canadian students and only hockey players take them, then it is obviously set up to to provide scholarships to ATHLETES. Ergo, it is a defacto athletic scholarship.
If a basketball program gives specific aid to New York City kids, and it only attracts basketball players, then it is obviously set up to provide scholarships to ATHLETES. Dittos to programs to attract say Brazilians and only soccer players take it, or Kenya and only marathoners take it.
I think we get all wrapped up in the numbers (because the NCAA has to use numbers in order to be objective when they look at the circumstances) and lose sight of what the NCAA is looking for -- are programs being set up to provide defacto athletic scholarships? That's the bottom line.
Like NUProf joked about with the drama scholarships, the NCAA will look at all financial aid programs if they feel there is an unusual number of ahletes getting them. It just so happens these specific investigations are only looking at the international programs. That doesn't let the domestic aid packages off the hook.
Not at all. The bottom line is Division III can not give sports specific financial aid. If hockey schools offer these great packages to Canadian students and only hockey players take them, then it is obviously set up to to provide scholarships to ATHLETES. Ergo, it is a defacto athletic scholarship.
If a basketball program gives specific aid to New York City kids, and it only attracts basketball players, then it is obviously set up to provide scholarships to ATHLETES. Dittos to programs to attract say Brazilians and only soccer players take it, or Kenya and only marathoners take it.
I think we get all wrapped up in the numbers (because the NCAA has to use numbers in order to be objective when they look at the circumstances) and lose sight of what the NCAA is looking for -- are programs being set up to provide defacto athletic scholarships? That's the bottom line.
Like NUProf joked about with the drama scholarships, the NCAA will look at all financial aid programs if they feel there is an unusual number of ahletes getting them. It just so happens these specific investigations are only looking at the international programs. That doesn't let the domestic aid packages off the hook.
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Russell Jaslow
Registered User
Re: Potsdam Penalized by NCAA for Violating Financial Aid Rules
Please, pray tell, what rules exist to monitor a drama club or a marching band?
Please, pray tell, what rules exist to monitor a drama club or a marching band?
Russell Jaslow
Registered User
Re: Potsdam Penalized by NCAA for Violating Financial Aid Rules
Apparently someone leaked that investigation because the NCAA will not talk about any until they are done.
Apparently someone leaked that investigation because the NCAA will not talk about any until they are done.
PSUChamps2001
Member of the REAL Zoo Crew
No but case in point at Crane...one of the best music schools around...if they set up financial aid packages to recruit the best musicians from China ect....and only music kids showed up how is that fair. I was offered a pretty big package to go there, granted not foreign, but it COULD happen.
Russell Jaslow
Registered User
Re: Potsdam Penalized by NCAA for Violating Financial Aid Rules
So? It's not ILLEGAL! And therefore has no point in this discussion.
Fair has nothing to do with the NCAA rules. All the NCAA is looking at and cares about is whether athletes are receiving defacto scholarships. Period.
So? It's not ILLEGAL! And therefore has no point in this discussion.
Fair has nothing to do with the NCAA rules. All the NCAA is looking at and cares about is whether athletes are receiving defacto scholarships. Period.
Birdwatcher
Registered User
Re: Potsdam Penalized by NCAA for Violating Financial Aid Rules
Originally Posted by Birdwatcher
Correct if I am wrong, but i don't believe it matters if the student is from Canada or North Bangor, NY. if they receive the financial package they count in the academic/athlete ratio.
This is what I said originally, in the quote you are responding to I was being sarcastic because of PSUChamps2001 answer to this.
Originally Posted by Birdwatcher
Correct if I am wrong, but i don't believe it matters if the student is from Canada or North Bangor, NY. if they receive the financial package they count in the academic/athlete ratio.
This is what I said originally, in the quote you are responding to I was being sarcastic because of PSUChamps2001 answer to this.
Russell Jaslow
Registered User
Re: Potsdam Penalized by NCAA for Violating Financial Aid Rules
Funny thing is, I was going to go back and answer that quote instead. But hopefully you got the point I'm making.
Funny thing is, I was going to go back and answer that quote instead. But hopefully you got the point I'm making.
Re: Potsdam Penalized by NCAA for Violating Financial Aid Rules
I have a hunch that these scholarships started out when the Canadian dollar was worth about $0.65 US. Nowadays, in case nobody has looked, the Loonie is worth around $1.04 US, which means they don't need the scholarships to equalize the currency differences.
I have a hunch that these scholarships started out when the Canadian dollar was worth about $0.65 US. Nowadays, in case nobody has looked, the Loonie is worth around $1.04 US, which means they don't need the scholarships to equalize the currency differences.