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Penn State's Impact on Women's Hockey

Even if you don't like the analogy, the overall point remains. Why bust up a successful 8-team league when the sport has other less prosperous conferences that are for some reason viewed as untouchable. Given the current number of D-I teams, the ECAC seems to be too large. Why don't Clarkson and St. Lawrence leave? They could have rivalries with Syracuse and Niagara. Or Union -- they are hardly flourishing in their current arrangement. Obviously none of these schools are obligated to make a move if they like where they are; by the same logic, neither is tOSU.
Well I'm not saying OSU is obligated to move. My initial question was, if OSU considered the move then, and they backed out when Findlay went under, why not consider it now? Perfectly reasonable question.

The best answer was, OSU now has an 11-year history in the WCHA as opposed to a 4-year history, and the conference now has a longer track record of NCAA titles. Moreover, the WCHA has firmly established itself as the best conference top-to-bottom and widened the gap with other leagues, and we couldn't have perfectly forecasted all this success in 2003.

As for the complaint, "why aren't we asking the same questions of ECAC schools?" the answers are 1) they didn't consider the move in 2003 like OSU, 2) ECAC certainly likes having the same members across gender, 3) the NY state schools do have schools nearby within the conference whereas OSU has no one nearby, which all else equal is a reason to consider a move.

Given the changing landscape of college sports, where TCU is in the Big EAST, the Big 10 has 12 and Big 12 has 10, OSU's membership in the WCHA makes more sense than ever before.
 
Re: Penn State's Impact on Women's Hockey

I don't see the ECAC or Hockey East absorbing Penn State into their respective conferences for all the reasons stated in this thread. Doesn't make sense especially when you consider travel and the fact that PSU has no men's teams in either conference.

I will be curious to see who PSU schedules outside of whatever conference they join. While the CHA makes sense, I would think Penn State's administration would find OSU, Minnesota and Wisconsin far more appealing in terms of hockey rivalries than Niagara, Robert Morris or Wayne State. There is familiarity there because of the football and basketball programs and they'll need that as they build a fan base for the hockey team.
 
Re: Penn State's Impact on Women's Hockey

I don't see the ECAC or Hockey East absorbing Penn State into their respective conferences for all the reasons stated in this thread. Doesn't make sense especially when you consider travel and the fact that PSU has no men's teams in either conference.

I will be curious to see who PSU schedules outside of whatever conference they join. While the CHA makes sense, I would think Penn State's administration would find OSU, Minnesota and Wisconsin far more appealing in terms of hockey rivalries than Niagara, Robert Morris or Wayne State. There is familiarity there because of the football and basketball programs and they'll need that as they build a fan base for the hockey team.

They already have a pretty solid hockey fan base, though less so for their women's program. I think it is pretty much a no brainer that they will want to schedule the teams you mentioned, however I expect it will take a few seasons before we see the full lot scheduling Penn State thanks to RPI conerns and the like. (Though as Wisco and Minny have shown by scheduling Union, that may not be all that big a concern).
 
Re: Penn State's Impact on Women's Hockey

They already have a pretty solid hockey fan base, though less so for their women's program. I think it is pretty much a no brainer that they will want to schedule the teams you mentioned, however I expect it will take a few seasons before we see the full lot scheduling Penn State thanks to RPI conerns and the like. (Though as Wisco and Minny have shown by scheduling Union, that may not be all that big a concern).

Why would we be concerned about Penn State? :D
 
Re: Penn State's Impact on Women's Hockey

(Though as Wisco and Minny have shown by scheduling Union, that may not be all that big a concern).
Minnesota has never played Union. As a conference opponent in other sports, I'd think that there would be more incentive to schedule Penn St, even on their way up. I remember that UND had to play D-I for two season before they were allowed to join the WCHA, but Minnesota did play 1 series with them in their second year.
 
Re: Penn State's Impact on Women's Hockey

Minnesota has never played Union. As a conference opponent in other sports, I'd think that there would be more incentive to schedule Penn St, even on their way up. I remember that UND had to play D-I for two season before they were allowed to join the WCHA, but Minnesota did play 1 series with them in their second year.

Right, they played Clarkson at the start of the season.
 
Re: Penn State's Impact on Women's Hockey

While the CHA makes sense, I would think Penn State's administration would find OSU, Minnesota and Wisconsin far more appealing in terms of hockey rivalries than Niagara, Robert Morris or Wayne State.

Perhaps, but I wouldn't quickly discount Penn State's interest in in-state rivalries with 'Hurst and RoMo.


Powers &8^]
 
Re: Penn State's Impact on Women's Hockey

The last few posts have contained a number of good insights. Combine them, and you get a fairly decent road map for PSU to follow in the early years.

Scheduling
First, as ARM notes, North Dakota played an independent schedule for their first two seasons. Penn State would be well advised to do the same. Certainly independent scheduling isn't a foreign concept to the Nittany Lions. ;)

Beyond being wise, it may be one of the few viable choices. As Skate79 argues, PSU isn't likely to be admitted to Hockey East or the ECAC. Joining the WCHA as brand new program would likely be an 0-28 suicide mission. The CHA might be less overwhelming. But at this point, it's not at all clear that's in the best interests of either side. (my previous post.)

In building an independent schedule, I completely agree with Lt. Powers that the two in-state rivals are a great place to start. Mercyhurst and Robert Morris should have permanent places on the PSU schedule, IMHO. Further IMHO, the Buckeyes and the Nittany Lions should begin an annual series at the earliest possible time.

Like Skate79 and Hux, I also believe that match-ups with Minnesota and Wisconsin would serve Penn State's interests well. On a Men's Hockey thread, it was suggested that the new PSU teams would do well to play some early games in the Boston area. I'll sign on to that thought. Why not make inquiries with each of the four Beanpot schools? You'd probably get a nibble or two. Likely all would be interested; the stumbling block would be availability.

That's a half season worth of games right there. For the remainder, I would first seek out other fledging programs, with Syracase at the top of the list. Finally, programs that have struggled a bit lately would provide some needed balance. Penn State's brand name would open some of those doors.

Conference Affiliation
It will be a couple years before PSU hits the ice, IIRC. Add couple more seasons as an independent, and we've got 4 years of breathing room on the question. Perhaps the Big Ten's plans, or lack thereof, will have crystallized at that point. If the Spartans and Wolverines really go D-1 in Women's Hockey, a Women's BTHC could be at hand.

Personally, I'm not sold on the idea of a six team BTHC -- for either gender. But there have been appealing rumors that Illinois and Indiana are considering D-1 Hockey. That may be mere wishful thinking. But if it all comes to fruition, and there actually are 8 BT teams playing Women's D-1, the BTHC happens. In other words, conference affiliation becomes a non-issue for PSU.

But what if the other BT schools stay at the club level? Selfishly, I would like to see PSU join the Women's WCHA. It's a great, great league, and all 4 BT teams would be together in the same conference. Both factors would be attractive incentives for Penn State. On the WCHA's side, adding a ninth team would create scheduling complications. Giving up the tidy 8 team schedule would be difficult for some to accept. But the sacrifice would probably be worth it to gain a school of Penn State's stature.

Naturally if a Women's BTHC is a long way off, the CHA will want to make a pitch for PSU. If the Nittany Lions were truly available for the indefinite future, as opposed to just passing through, they'd be a great catch. If that transpired, I imagine OSU would get a renewed inquiry, and we'd at least have to listen. The CHA, as currently constituted, isn't an attractive option compared to the WCHA. But add Penn State, and say Notre Dame, and maybe you have something that starts looking like the equivalent of the Men's CCHA. Personally I'd want to OSU to remain in the Women's WCHA, with the creation of the BTHC as the only exception. But it must be conceded that Penn State's decision will have quite an impact on the relevant incentives.

Sean, was this the kind of post you had in mind?:)
 
Re: Penn State's Impact on Women's Hockey

Sean, was this the kind of post you had in mind?:)
Yes, pgb (if I may call you that), it is exactly the kind of post I had in mind. :) I'm also happy to see that you're willing to consider the idea of an enhanced CHA with PSU and OSU (and maybe other schools) as members.

As for your comments, first scheduling. Penn State plans to start playing in 2012-13, only one season from now. That makes joining a conference or planning an independent schedule this summer a priority. On the men’s side Penn State has already indicated that will be an independent for the first two seasons and then likely join a league. For what I consider obvious reasons this will likely be the newly formed BTHC. On the women’s side, with no WBTHC likely on the horizon, I think that they may wish to join a league immediately, if it makes sense and is possible.

If they do remain an independent for a few seasons it most likely they will end up scheduling far more eastern then western teams. The non-Ivy ECAC (12 nc games), Hockey East (13 nc games), and CHA (18 nc games) teams could all accommodate PSU much more easily than the WCHA (6 nc games) and Ivy (7 nc games) teams. I also think it unlikely for PSU to have annual series with any or all of the other Big Ten schools because of the limited nc games available for scheduling. With an independent schedule I see Penn State trying to work out one or two season schedules with 2 game home-and-home series with Mercyhurst, Robert Morris and Syracuse, along with single two game series with Ohio State, Wisconsin and Minnesota for 18 games. The other 16 games could be filled out with two game series with 4 Hockey East and 4 ECAC teams.

Second, conference affiliation. With PSU starting play in 2012-13 and it now possible that the men’s BTHC will begin play in 2013-14 (PSU has stated that the new arena will open a year earlier than originally expected) it is possible that they will also want the women’s team in a league by 2013-14. That would only give us two seasons, but this is just my opinion.

Since starting this thread I have considered the idea of Penn State joining the WCHA and had much the same thoughts you had about it. I've been busy and I'm glad that you posted these thoughts.

I've also considered a 6 team WBTHC, with all Big Ten schools or with 'associate members'. However, I think this is unlikely as I don’t see Michigan or Michigan State starting a women’s program anytime soon. I also think any benefits of joining a WBTHC as an associate member would be outweighed by the negatives of such a move.

I have also thought about PSU joining Hockey East and I would like to think that the league would be open to the idea. Even though I think it would ultimately be unlikely for the basic reasons I have already mentioned, I think it would be a positive move for the league in many respects. I also think it would be a positive for Penn State in many respects, but other than the article I mentioned previously, I have heard nothing about PSU’s plans for the women’s program.

The CHA is a geographic and, at least in the beginning, competitive fit for the program. As I also think a WBTHC is a long way off, I think it would also be a natural home for Penn State.

The one big caveat is if, for some reason, the BTHC is nixed. If the men’s team has no BTHC to join I’m not so sure the men’s program will automatically join the CCHA. Penn State may instead look to the ECAC or Hockey East for both their men’s and women’s programs. In that event, unlikely as it may be, I see both leagues being extremely interest in having PSU join. Besides top level athletics PSU has top level academics which would fit in very well with the ECAC’s emphasis on academics and would enhance Hockey East’s academic standing.

Sean
 
Re: Penn State's Impact on Women's Hockey

Ok, I'm going to go out on a limb and say there will be no BTHC, and that the CHA and Atlantic Hockey will form some sort of new league for both the men and women. (Air Force ends up in the WCHA or CCHA and not in the east)
 
Re: Penn State's Impact on Women's Hockey

Ok, I'm going to go out on a limb and say there will be no BTHC, and that the CHA and Atlantic Hockey will form some sort of new league for both the men and women. (Air Force ends up in the WCHA or CCHA and not in the east)
In my opinion as long as there is no BTHC there is no chance Air Force joins the WCHA and even with the BTHC I think there is only a small chance Air Force joins.

As for the CHA and AHA merging, that makes a lot of sense. However for it to happen I think RIT needs to elevate their women's program to DI and Holy Cross needs to support their program at the DI level. When you add Sacred Heart, Robert Morris, Niagara and Mercyhurst, that would be six AHA teams plus Wayne State and Sryacuse (I don't see UConn's women leaving Hockey East) that would make an eight team women's AHA.

However, I don't see Penn State having any interest in having their women's team play in a WAHA. That would leaving joining one of teh other leagues, or remaining an independant. I think that they would do OK as an independant, but with the current WCHA schedule, it would be hard to have annual series with the three Big Ten teams.

Sean
 
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Re: Penn State's Impact on Women's Hockey

Yes, pgb (if I may call you that), it is exactly the kind of post I had in mind. :)
Sure, no problem with that.

I'm also happy to see that you're willing to consider the idea of an enhanced CHA with PSU and OSU (and maybe other schools) as members.
Well, the fuller statement of my opinion isn't that different than earlier posts on this specific point. I do hold Penn State in high regard. But PSU alone wouldn't tempt me to leave the Women's WCHA, which I also hold in very high regard.

In my longer post, I was just briefly pondering the various realistic scenarios. IF a Big Ten Women's league is far off, and IF a Notre Dame or a Michigan State was also involved in the CHA, then consideration would need to be given. Those are substantial ifs. And even then I'm not sure I'd want to move. I place I high value on conference stability. Admittedly others at OSU might not share my level of loyalty to the Women's WCHA; I'm stating a personal opinion.

As for your comments, first scheduling. Penn State plans to start playing in 2012-13, only one season from now.
I wasn't sure on that, and am glad to have an authoritative answer. I could have sworn I heard two years until the start-up, but maybe that included the current season.

That makes joining a conference or planning an independent schedule this summer a priority. On the men�s side Penn State has already indicated that will be an independent for the first two seasons and then likely join a league. For what I consider obvious reasons this will likely be the newly formed BTHC. On the women�s side, with no WBTHC likely on the horizon, I think that they may wish to join a league immediately, if it makes sense and is possible.
I'd still recommend the two seasons as an independent, for the reasons mentioned previously. But of course that's Penn State's call.

If they do remain an independent for a few seasons it most likely they will end up scheduling far more eastern then western teams. The non-Ivy ECAC (12 nc games), Hockey East (13 nc games), and CHA (18 nc games) teams could all accommodate PSU much more easily than the WCHA (6 nc games) and Ivy (7 nc games) teams. I also think it unlikely for PSU to have annual series with any or all of the other Big Ten schools because of the limited nc games available for scheduling. With an independent schedule I see Penn State trying to work out one or two season schedules with 2 game home-and-home series with Mercyhurst, Robert Morris and Syracuse, along with single two game series with Ohio State, Wisconsin and Minnesota for 18 games. The other 16 games could be filled out with two game series with 4 Hockey East and 4 ECAC teams.
That's actually very close to what I was envisioning. I wasn't specific about the "fledgling" and "recently struggling" teams, partly because I didn't want to hang those labels on particular schools. But I had imagined they'd come mostly, if not entirely, from the Eastern Time Zone. As for the Big Ten teams, I agree -- we're talking about 2 games annually, not 4. At least until the Nittany Lions join the Women's WCHA.;)

Second, conference affiliation. With PSU starting play in 2012-13 and it now possible that the men�s BTHC will begin play in 2013-14 (PSU has stated that the new arena will open a year earlier than originally expected) it is possible that they will also want the women�s team in a league by 2013-14. That would only give us two seasons, but this is just my opinion.

Since starting this thread I have considered the idea of Penn State joining the WCHA and had much the same thoughts you had about it. I've been busy and I'm glad that you posted these thoughts.

I've also considered a 6 team WBTHC, with all Big Ten schools or with 'associate members'. However, I think this is unlikely as I don�t see Michigan or Michigan State starting a women�s program anytime soon. I also think any benefits of joining a WBTHC as an associate member would be outweighed by the negatives of such a move.
I have also been reluctant to believe the rumors regarding UM & MSU. If true, sweeping changes are likely in the works. If not, then I tend to agree: a WBTHC relying on associate members seems unlikely.

I have also thought about PSU joining Hockey East and I would like to think that the league would be open to the idea. Even though I think it would ultimately be unlikely for the basic reasons I have already mentioned, I think it would be a positive move for the league in many respects. I also think it would be a positive for Penn State in many respects, but other than the article I mentioned previously, I have heard nothing about PSU�s plans for the women�s program.

The CHA is a geographic and, at least in the beginning, competitive fit for the program. As I also think a WBTHC is a long way off, I think it would also be a natural home for Penn State.
With two in-state rivals, it is a fairly nice fit. They also don't have a history with another D-1 League to consider. While I don't want people assuming that OSU would be along for that ride, I would be supportive of such a decision made by Penn State. If it plays out that way, the Nittany Lions would be the number 1 team on my wish list for non-conference play.

The one big caveat is if, for some reason, the BTHC is nixed. If the men�s team has no BTHC to join I�m not so sure the men�s program will automatically join the CCHA. Penn State may instead look to the ECAC or Hockey East for both their men�s and women�s programs. In that event, unlikely as it may be, I see both leagues being extremely interest in having PSU join. Besides top level athletics PSU has top level academics which would fit in very well with the ECAC�s emphasis on academics and would enhance Hockey East�s academic standing.
In that scenario, I tend to agree that PSU would get multiple offers. I'd want the CCHA to do everything it could to attract the Penn State Men. If that transpired, then the Penn State Women might be even more likely to land in the CHA. Finally, I do agree that there would be greater interest from the eastern leagues if both PSU teams were available to them.

Thanks for the conversation!
 
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Re: Penn State's Impact on Women's Hockey

Perhaps, but I wouldn't quickly discount Penn State's interest in in-state rivalries with 'Hurst and RoMo.


Powers &8^]

No question that Mercyhurst brings a lot to the table. I was just thinking that Penn State's administration would lean towards Big Ten schools that they have familiarity with and possibly heated rivalries. You have to start somewhere though and Mercyhurst is as good as as any. I'm not familiar with Robert Morris so I can't comment there. The HE schools particularly BC would gain instant fan attention and would be a very good draw. I'm actually not sure how much Harvard, Dartmouth and Cornell would add to their fan interest in Happy Valley right off the bat. I can tell you that in Cambridge, it would draw a big yawn.
 
Re: Penn State's Impact on Women's Hockey

To me it seems the CHA is a natural fit -- Syracuse, Mercyhurst and Robert Morris all within a 4 1/2 hour bus ride. Wayne State is a little further but only about 6, which is an easy ride. ECAC schools typically play non-conference as well (ie. Robert Morris, Syracuse and Mercyhurst all played Cornell this year). I think some good rivalries could pop up there. And, with the complement of scholarships Penn St. is prepared to dole out, I expect them to build a a new program with success comparable to what BU has done in a short time. Another highly respected university offering NCAA D1 scholarships to women is only good for the sport! Penn State is to be commended for moving forward doing this while other Big 10 schools have hockey for men only!
 
Re: Penn State's Impact on Women's Hockey

And, with the complement of scholarships Penn St. is prepared to dole out, I expect them to build a a new program with success comparable to what BU has done in a short time.
I suspect Syracuse is a better a basis for comparison, considering that BU has a stronger hockey history and obvious, stable conference fit.
 
Re: Penn State's Impact on Women's Hockey

Perhaps there is so much negativity toward PSU and/or OSU joining the CHA because the other conferences would have less of a reason to whine about the validity of the CHA conference as contenders.
Face it people, CHA teams have a lot to offer top NCAA recruits.
 
Re: Penn State's Impact on Women's Hockey

Perhaps there is so much negativity toward PSU and/or OSU joining the CHA because the other conferences would have less of a reason to whine about the validity of the CHA conference as contenders.
Face it people, CHA teams have a lot to offer top NCAA recruits.
With all due respect, I think you're misreading the various comments on this thread.

My position is based primarily on the fact I like where OSU is right now, and don't want to move. As ARM put it, why bust up a successful 8 team conference? The competition is excellent, the scheduling works beautifully and members have performed extremely well against the other leagues. We have an 11 year history together, and counting. If it isn't broken, why fix it?

At the same time, I hope and believe I've spoken warmly about the CHA. The schools do have a lot offer, and make very worthy non-conference opponents.

For the most part I'll let others defend themselves. But I think a fair reading of the other posts includes considerable sentiment that the CHA would be an appropriate option for Penn State, not that the CHA would somehow be beneath PSU's standards.
 
Re: Penn State's Impact on Women's Hockey

I have also been reluctant to believe the rumors regarding UM & MSU. If true, sweeping changes are likely in the works.

I have it on pretty good authority that the stumbling block in Ann Arbor is Red Berenson. Not a stumbling block, but the stumbling block. There won't be a women's team there as long as he is coaching the men. Once he retires (and it's kind of like waiting for Joe Paterno to retire, as long as we're talking about PSU), I would expect momentum to build to start a woman's program. That part isn't from any authority, just knowledge from having grown up there and having two parents intimately connected to both the university and the hockey program. I know they'll be agitating for it.
 
Re: Penn State's Impact on Women's Hockey

Kind of like the Celtics not having cheerleaders until after Red Auerbach had passed (humbly lowering head........)
 
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