Parity and Olympic Women's Hockey

[sharkie]

Re: Parity and Olympic Women's Hockey

There are quite a few nationalities to which you could apply this.
- Lots of Ukranian decendents in Manitoba and Canada West with great hockey talents.
- Many German and Dutch decendents in many parts of Canada.
- Many French decendents in Quebec, the Maritimes and Northern Ontario.
- Many Italian decendents all over North America.

I think this could work for a "short term fix", but for it to work and it to have a longer lingering affect all these players should start playing overseas as part of this approach to help grow and teach the game.

Unfortunately with Rogge specifically zeroing in on women's ice hockey I think a short term fix maybe needed. But a long term goal should be implemented at the same time. Once they stop looking to eliminate women's ice hockey, then the greater push of the long term goal should hopefully occur. I think one program implemented should be those who compete for these countries should stay a few years in the country to grow and promote the sport. However, who will get the ball rolling?

 

[SlewFoot]

Re: Parity and Olympic Women's Hockey

Unfortunately with Rogge specifically zeroing in on women's ice hockey I think a short term fix maybe needed. But a long term goal should be implemented at the same time. Once they stop looking to eliminate women's ice hockey, then the greater push of the long term goal should hopefully occur. I think one program implemented should be those who compete for these countries should stay a few years in the country to grow and promote the sport. However, who will get the ball rolling?

I was just wondering. What are the eligibility rules? I know in the last summer olympics there was an American playing on the Russian women's basketball team. I believe that she was eligible not because of her heritage but because she playing in the Russian basketball summer league. Are there specific Olympic rules or are the eligibility rules up to the individual country? I think I read one set of international sports rules that said citizenship was a defining factor but I wasn't sure if that applied to the olympics. Does anyone know what the rules are?

 

[OnMAA]

Re: Parity and Olympic Women's Hockey

I was just wondering. What are the eligibility rules? I know in the last summer olympics there was an American playing on the Russian women's basketball team. I believe that she was eligible not because of her heritage but because she playing in the Russian basketball summer league. Are there specific Olympic rules or are the eligibility rules up to the individual country? I think I read one set of international sports rules that said citizenship was a defining factor but I wasn't sure if that applied to the olympics. Does anyone know what the rules are?

IIRC from the past, you have to be a citizen of that country. In addition if you had competed internationally for another Nation in the past, there is a mandatory wait period. I think it is one full calendar year, but not sure on the duration. There are lots of examples of Kenian and Ethiopian athletes competing for European countries in track and field. Similarly, some russian female athletes have competed for Western Countries in track and field events. One of the most famous ones is the Pole Vaulter that competed for Australia and won a gold medal. Another famous person switching countries to compete in the Olympics is Zola Bud Peterson, who competed against Mary Decker-Slaney in LA. There was Martina Navratilova in tennis who switched to a US citizen ship. Even in hockey there was Brett Hull, who switched from the Canucks to the Yanks, but not sure if that was for the Olympics or Worlds.

Point is that in some other sports, strong nations tend to be exporters of talent that ends up competing for other nations in the Olympics. One of the most notable examples is Kenian long distance runners running under the flag of many other countries.

 

[Hux]

Re: Parity and Olympic Women's Hockey

IIRC from the past, you have to be a citizen of that country. In addition if you had competed internationally for another Nation in the past, there is a mandatory wait period. I think it is one full calendar year, but not sure on the duration. There are lots of examples of Kenian and Ethiopian athletes competing for European countries in track and field. Similarly, some russian female athletes have competed for Western Countries in track and field events. One of the most famous ones is the Pole Vaulter that competed for Australia and won a gold medal. Another famous person switching countries to compete in the Olympics is Zola Bud Peterson, who competed against Mary Decker-Slaney in LA. There was Martina Navratilova in tennis who switched to a US citizen ship. Even in hockey there was Brett Hull, who switched from the Canucks to the Yanks, but not sure if that was for the Olympics or Worlds.

Point is that in some other sports, strong nations tend to be exporters of talent that ends up competing for other nations in the Olympics. One of the most notable examples is Kenian long distance runners running under the flag of many other countries.

I think there are quite diverse residency requirements from country to country to qualify for citizenship and then inclusion in Olympic trials. In Hull's case, he had duel citizenship, while Navratilova became an American citizen (She defected to the US back in the 70s) long before the Olympics had pros playing. I have a friend who was born in Spain but spent all but a few months of her life living in California, but she competed as a mountain biker for Spain in Sydney.

 

[SlewFoot]

Re: Parity and Olympic Women's Hockey

I think there are quite diverse residency requirements from country to country to qualify for citizenship and then inclusion in Olympic trials. In Hull's case, he had duel citizenship, while Navratilova became an American citizen (She defected to the US back in the 70s) long before the Olympics had pros playing. I have a friend who was born in Spain but spent all but a few months of her life living in California, but she competed as a mountain biker for Spain in Sydney.

I guess what I was thinking is if the Olympics wants a more competitive tournament I'm sure there would be a lot of women (US and Canadian) who would like to play for the country of their heritage. Obviously these women would prefer to play for the country that they are citizens but playing in the Olympics would be an exciting experience for many that would otherwise not get the chance. I'm sure its not easy to do otherwise I think many would have done so sooner.

 

[Hux]

Re: Parity and Olympic Women's Hockey

I guess what I was thinking is if the Olympics wants a more competitive tournament I'm sure there would be a lot of women (US and Canadian) who would like to play for the country of their heritage. Obviously these women would prefer to play for the country that they are citizens but playing in the Olympics would be an exciting experience for many that would otherwise not get the chance. I'm sure its not easy to do otherwise I think many would have done so sooner.

Well, while it might make for a slightly more competitive tourney in he short term, I think it would ultimately hurt development and growth in the long term. Taking away spots from the locals will only decrease interest in funding and growing the game at the grass roots level by the NGBs or the governments that fund the NGBs.

 

[SlewFoot]

Re: Parity and Olympic Women's Hockey

Well, while it might make for a slightly more competitive tourney in he short term, I think it would ultimately hurt development and growth in the long term. Taking away spots from the locals will only decrease interest in funding and growing the game at the grass roots level by the NGBs or the governments that fund the NGBs.

True enough unless the number of players was limited (e.g. like the Canadian football league). If you only allow a small number of foreign players on each team it just might help the development of the locals in that they will be playing and practicing with a higher level player.

 

[OnMAA]

Re: Parity and Olympic Women's Hockey

Well, while it might make for a slightly more competitive tourney in he short term, I think it would ultimately hurt development and growth in the long term. Taking away spots from the locals will only decrease interest in funding and growing the game at the grass roots level by the NGBs or the governments that fund the NGBs.

As I indicated before, IMHO it would be a good short term fix to grow the game overseas PROVIDED those players that make this transfer, live in the country they play for and help grow the game there. Agree that if they play for their forefather country, but live over here, it does nothing for the development of the game overseas.

 

[sharkie]

Re: Parity and Olympic Women's Hockey

As I indicated before, IMHO it would be a good short term fix to grow the game overseas PROVIDED those players that make this transfer, live in the country they play for and help grow the game there. Agree that if they play for their forefather country, but live over here, it does nothing for the development of the game overseas.

That is exactly what I infered in my previous comment. To grow the sport they have to live in the country they participate for and give back to the game. I am sure many would relish the chance to live overseas for a period of their lives. My question is what are the IIHF requirements on eligibility and how do you get such a thing started?

 

[CARDS_rule_the_Burgh]

Re: Parity and Olympic Women's Hockey

In regards to player eligibility: I'm fairly certain the governing bodies of each individual sport regulates that. In the summer olympics, it is FIFA's nationality regulations that decide who is eligible to player for a country in soccer. Thus, in hockey, it would be IIHF. Most organizations just require you to carry a passport of the that country, some also require you to officially reside there, and some require living there for a certain amount of time. If the requirement is carrying passport, the requirements are then in the hand of the government. Italy is a great example. I know somebody who's great-grandfather emigrated from Italy. His grandfather was born before the great-grandfather naturalized as an American Citizen. The grandfather thus inherited a right to Italian Citizenship. As neither the grandfather, father, nor my friend, "naturalized" as American Citizens (they were all US citizens by birth), none renounced Italian Citizenship. My friend was able to successfully submit an application for an Italian Passport. He now carried both a US and an Italian Passport, and has spent a total of 2 weeks in Italy in his whole life. (That will soon be changing, but it still proves the point).

Could I see this being exploited to create competition in Women's Hockey. Sure, but I'd like to think the ladies would rather play for their HOME country (US and Canada).

 

[goaliedad35]

Re: Parity and Olympic Women's Hockey

Interesting loop hole it seems but in fact the US government does not recognize any sort of dual citizenship and requires any US citizen to renounce citizenship in any other country. Theoretically they could be at risk of denaturalization (unlikely) but officially no US citizen is allowed to carry the passport of another country. What makes the issue interesting is that a lot of other countries (Canada and Italy apparently) don't care so they will still issue passports to individuals living abroad and potentially carrying other passports.

 

[Sean Pickett]

Re: Parity and Olympic Women's Hockey

Interesting loop hole it seems but in fact the US government does not recognize any sort of dual citizenship and requires any US citizen to renounce citizenship in any other country. Theoretically they could be at risk of denaturalization (unlikely) but officially no US citizen is allowed to carry the passport of another country. What makes the issue interesting is that a lot of other countries (Canada and Italy apparently) don't care so they will still issue passports to individuals living abroad and potentially carrying other passports.

Not true. You can read the official <a href=http://travel.state.gov/travel/cis_pa_tw/cis/cis_1753.html>US State Department Services Dual Nationality</a> statement on the State Department website.

Sean

 

[5 4 Fighting]

Re: Parity and Olympic Women's Hockey

Interesting loop hole it seems but in fact the US government does not recognize any sort of dual citizenship and requires any US citizen to renounce citizenship in any other country. Theoretically they could be at risk of denaturalization (unlikely) but officially no US citizen is allowed to carry the passport of another country. What makes the issue interesting is that a lot of other countries (Canada and Italy apparently) don't care so they will still issue passports to individuals living abroad and potentially carrying other passports.

This is laughable ...and oh so typical.

 

[west]

Re: Parity and Olympic Women's Hockey

One of the IIHF's rules regarding eligibility is that you have to carry a passport. It's no good to just have the ancestry (having your name end in 'chuk', 'enko' or 'iak' can only go so far to make you eligible for Ukraine). This is why Ulf Samuelsson couldn't play for Sweden at the '98 Olympics. When he got his American passport the Swedes took his Swedish one away, so despite being from Sweden and having played for Sweden in the past, he lost his eligibility immediately.

The other rules (that I was able to dig up in my lazy search) are seem specific to men's hockey and are prohibitive for women to take advantage of them if this was a route the IIHF thought would help. I don't actually support this approach, but I figure it's fun to postulate anyway.

 

[NorthernLite]

Re: Parity and Olympic Women's Hockey

Great discussion !

Can somebody please answer this question I have often wondered with regard to the Olympics ?

Why is it that nations having the depth in certain sports are only allowed one team (i.e. sofball and hockey) while other sports (i.e. bobsled) can have more than one team compete for medals ?

 

[OnMAA]

Re: Parity and Olympic Women's Hockey

Great discussion !

Can somebody please answer this question I have often wondered with regard to the Olympics ?

Why is it that nations having the depth in certain sports are only allowed one team (i.e. sofball and hockey) while other sports (i.e. bobsled) can have more than one team compete for medals ?

There are sports specific rules and olympic rules. While rules may differ somewhat from sports to sport there are typically four categories...

Individual events:All top N players in the world qualify, based on the A standard ( based on time, scale, height etc, or world rank or as combination of both) with a limit of three persons per nation.
In addition nations with no one meeting the A-standard/A-ranking can send one person meeting a B or C standard.
In some sports the defending Word champ gets an auto entry over and above the three per nation.

Small teams (two team member events):Most top nations get two entries max (Examples are Bobsled, Sync Swimming, Beach Volley Ball etc).

Big team events for standard team only sports (Soccer, Water Polo, Volleyball) Only one team per nation, entry based either on a qualification process in pre-olympic qualifying tournaments, or on rankings based on previous years worlds, or a combination of both.

Team events in individual sports: (Gymnastics, Swimming, Track Relays)
One entry per nation only.

 

[NorthernLite]

Re: Parity and Olympic Women's Hockey

There are sports specific rules and olympic rules. While rules may differ somewhat from sports to sport there are typically four categories...

Individual events:All top N players in the world qualify, based on the A standard ( based on time, scale, height etc, or world rank or as combination of both) with a limit of three persons per nation.
In addition nations with no one meeting the A-standard/A-ranking can send one person meeting a B or C standard.
In some sports the defending Word champ gets an auto entry over and above the three per nation.

Small teams (two team member events):Most top nations get two entries max (Examples are Bobsled, Sync Swimming, Beach Volley Ball etc).

Big team events for standard team only sports (Soccer, Water Polo, Volleyball) Only one team per nation, entry based either on a qualification process in pre-olympic qualifying tournaments, or on rankings based on previous years worlds, or a combination of both.

Team events in individual sports: (Gymnastics, Swimming, Track Relays)
One entry per nation only.

Thanks for enlightening me.......on the small team/large team definitions.

I'm certain the Olympic Committee' s rule limiting nations to one entry per large team sport is intended to maintain the highest level of competition. Depth in some large team sports should warrant consideration to change that rule. If a country can field two world class 2-man bobsled teams.....I would submit the same holds true for hockey, softball or curling ?

I am a traditionalist when it comes to sport...but I also appreciate watching the very best competition possible. Removing team sports from "the" games because of a lack of global depth isn't what I would consider a better alternative to changing this rule.

 

[LtPowers]

Re: Parity and Olympic Women's Hockey

If a country can field two world class 2-man bobsled teams.....I would submit the same holds true for hockey, softball or curling ?

Certainly that's very possible. But consider this: Having two individuals or 2-man teams from the same country finish gold-silver is one thing. Having two large teams from the same country compete against each other in a gold-medal game is another thing entirely.

(In other words, I think it's the fact that the large-team sports involve contested games rather than individual performances that matters.)


Powers &8^]

 

[OnMAA]

Re: Parity and Olympic Women's Hockey

Thanks for enlightening me.......on the small team/large team definitions.

I'm certain the Olympic Committee' s rule limiting nations to one entry per large team sport is intended to maintain the highest level of competition. Depth in some large team sports should warrant consideration to change that rule. If a country can field two world class 2-man bobsled teams.....I would submit the same holds true for hockey, softball or curling ?

I am a traditionalist when it comes to sport...but I also appreciate watching the very best competition possible. Removing team sports from "the" games because of a lack of global depth isn't what I would consider a better alternative to changing this rule.

Just to clarify my earlier post WRT team definitions. Certain sports like Soccer, Hockey etc are TEAM ONLY sports, so only one entry per nations. Sports like swimming, track, bobsled are individual sports where they incorporate some team type events like relays in track, 4 by something in swimming and two and four man bobsled, and in some of those there are two entries per nation.

 

[NorthernLite]

Re: Parity and Olympic Women's Hockey

Certainly that's very possible. But consider this: Having two individuals or 2-man teams from the same country finish gold-silver is one thing. Having two large teams from the same country compete against each other in a gold-medal game is another thing entirely.

(In other words, I think it's the fact that the large-team sports involve contested games rather than individual performances that matters.)


Powers &8^]

I understand the distinction between individual team performances and contested games. Frequently multiple medals are won by those countries with depth to field 2 small individual teams. If two small teams from the same country are worthy of competing for multiple medals why not large teams ?

I'm sure the IOC would sooner jump into a flaming olympic caldron before considering a qualification process that would permit two "world class" entries per country in a large team sport. My issue is that they would sooner consider eliminating sports like women's hockey or softball from the program as a better alternative.