Open Wheel Racing 2021, anyone there to watch?

[Russell Jaslow]

Are there specific protocols on when to start from the grid versus a rolling start after a red?

For a sport with so many specific regulations and points of emphasis on seemingly trivial things, once it comes to race day there are a lot of decisions that appear to be completely random.

Yes.

The rule is basically a standing start is used after a red flag unless the race director deems the conditions to be unsafe.

Vague enough to essentially leave it up to the race director. Most people assume rain is the unsafe condition the rules are referring to. But it can be anything. Cold track where tires can't warm up properly. Or, perhaps, when there are two laps left and they know everyone is going to lose their fucking minds.

The real issue to me is none of these situations required a red flag. And to compound the effect of a red flag is the absurdity of allowing work to be done during a red flag. No other racing series in the world, amateur or pro, allows this. It totally messes up a race for everyone, including the fans, especially if they are going to be red flagging races on a whim.

 

[MichVandal]

The real issue to me is none of these situations required a red flag. And to compound the effect of a red flag is the absurdity of allowing work to be done during a red flag. No other racing series in the world, amateur or pro, allows this. It totally messes up a race for everyone, including the fans, especially if they are going to be red flagging races on a whim.

Other than the two Alpines parked on the edge of the track, I agree. But I know you were not really talking about that mess.

Seems that they could have even called the race then, given how much time it took just to run two laps behind a safety car.

 

[Kepler]

Massa is deciding whether to take legal action.

 

[solovsfett]

Massa is deciding whether to take legal action.

Well… 1. This won’t work.
2. Ecclestone is an idiot for knowing lot allowing that bs from Piquet.
3…I admit, Massa has a point but I don’t se how to remedy this, especially after all of the time that’s elapsed.
4. I guess there’s some precedent. Mario won his 2nd Indy 500 until the stewards stole it from him

so hell…I’m conflicted on this story.

 

[Kepler]

Solution is obvious to me. You take Lewis' title and give it to Massa and then you take Max' first title and give it to Lewis.

Everybody wins.

 

[MichVandal]

Well… 1. This won’t work.
2. Ecclestone is an idiot for knowing lot allowing that bs from Piquet.
3…I admit, Massa has a point but I don’t se how to remedy this, especially after all of the time that’s elapsed.
4. I guess there’s some precedent. Mario won his 2nd Indy 500 until the stewards stole it from him

so hell…I’m conflicted on this story.

One issue I see is that you have to prove that Alonso was part of it. If he wasn't, how do you take a win away from an individual? He didn't cheat.

It would be incredibly interesting that Alonso was directly involved with two cheating scandals that quickly.

Besides, the team has already served the time and paid the fine.

 

[Kepler]

One issue I see is that you have to prove that Alonso was part of it. If he wasn't, how do you take a win away from an individual? He didn't cheat.

Because if you benefit from somebody else's crime you can't lose that benefit?

Somebody should tell that to people who buy stolen goods.

The point of annulling a result is you aren't "taking it away," because it never happened. "How can you take away my sac fly RBI just because the runner left early?!" No.

 

[MichVandal]

Because if you benefit from somebody else's crime you can't lose that benefit?

Somebody should tell that to people who buy stolen goods.

The point of annulling a result is you aren't "taking it away," because it never happened. "How can you take away my sac fly RBI just because the runner left early?!" No.

Winning a race without doing anything wrong isn't the same as buying stolen goods. You'd have to prove that Alonso knew about it, as I see it. Alonso is more like the cost of new cars is lower because his teammate is selling stolen cars.

And annulling the result hurts a lot of teams who did nothing wrong. Let alone all of the money that would go around that.

 

[Kepler]

Winning a race without doing anything wrong isn't the same as buying stolen goods. You'd have to prove that Alonso knew about it, as I see it. Alonso is more like the cost of new cars is lower because his teammate is selling stolen cars.

And annulling the result hurts a lot of teams who did nothing wrong. Let alone all of the money that would go around that.

I don't think you have to prove Alonso knew about it. You just have to prove it happened and that the rule was to wipe the race.

Now, the only thing I've seen so far that says the latter is Ecclestone, and Ecclestone seems to have the same moral character as Dump, so I don't know if that's correct. And if this isn't a legal matter and is just the rules, and if FIA has a rule that says "once declared a race can't be rescinded," then I don't know if there's anything anybody can do about it but asterisk it like Bonds.

 

[Kepler]

And annulling the result hurts a lot of teams who did nothing wrong. Let alone all of the money that would go around that.

But the thing is, if there's a matter of truth here, then it doesn't matter if those teams get hurt... it's still true.

I have no doubt money will finally decide this. I was more arguing about what should happen. What will happen is bound to be awful.

 

[unofan]

But the thing is, if there's a matter of truth here, then it doesn't matter if those teams get hurt... it's still true.

I have no doubt money will finally decide this. I was more arguing about what should happen. What will happen is bound to be awful.

You're arguing about something that happened 15 years ago. Short of a class A felony, the statute of limitations has run. Who gives a fuck at this point?

 

[MichVandal]

But the thing is, if there's a matter of truth here, then it doesn't matter if those teams get hurt... it's still true.

I have no doubt money will finally decide this. I was more arguing about what should happen. What will happen is bound to be awful.

Why would it not matter? They all participated in a race that to them was legal, and they all got paid for it. Let alone spending massive amounts of money to participate.

Right now, what I think will happen is nothing. Other than a lot of talk. Ship sailed. Everyone had their chance to undo the result back in the day. Let alone, Bernie's word isn't all that trustworthy anymore (as if it ever was).

 

[solovsfett]

Gilles Villeneuve for the win!

https://twitter.com/crystalracing/status/1647587000315256832?s=46&t=qs5b-QkF9UgV9i29HGo2Ag

 

[solovsfett]

Would Roger Penske consider a sale? https://racer.com/2023/04/24/indycar-refutes-liberty-media-sale-rumor/


I would doubt it because it would mean INDYCAR would be an f1 feeder series. But Liberty has stacks of cash and Roger is 85 with no evident successor plan.

 

[Kepler]

Toto is unimpressed.

Based on those helicopter shots I am prepared to believe Baku is the most oppressive and depressing city outside Texas. It looked like an authoritarian nightmare.

We've really done the dystopian world tour so far, with Bahrain, Saudi Arabia, and Azerbaijan, and Miami coming up. I love that they call it the Cringe Grand Prix.

 

[MichVandal]

Toto is unimpressed.

Based on those helicopter shots I am prepared to believe Baku is the most oppressive and depressing city outside Texas. It looked like an authoritarian nightmare.

We've really done the dystopian world tour so far, with Bahrain, Saudi Arabia, and Azerbaijan, and Miami coming up. I love that they call it the Cringe Grand Prix.

Well, this weekends race should be more boring, since the track in Miami has less of a passing zone than Baku does. And for a fan, the location of the race is far from appealing- it's a long way (for a walk) from any decent hotels, especially South Beach. And the drive there will be a nightmare- we've been there for boat week, and this probably will be worse- since all of the A listers will want to be seen there. It's also really exposed- no trees anywhere. So other than being "Miami", the race just looks miserable. Some people I know who worked there last year are not for those reasons.

At least Baku has a pretty historic area in the middle of it. That would be an interesting feature to visit.

Oh, one more thing about Miami- it's freaking Florida. They have laws that pretty much force every sex offender to live under a bridge, homeless. And we all know what they did during covid- we were on a cruise this past week, and one of the Florida comedians made fun of it and all of the death and misery. Wasn't all that funny to me.

 

[Kepler]

Oh, one more thing about Miami- it's freaking Florida. They have laws that pretty much force every sex offender to live under a bridge, homeless.

It's Florida. Everyone is a sex offender.

 

[Spartanforlife4]

I thought today was fairly interesting from a mid pack standpoint. Starting on hards seemed to be the way to go and helped flip the field for those who went mediums second.

I guess the same could be said for the battle for first, but since Max kept pulling away even on his final laps on hards there wasn’t much drama there.

 

[MichVandal]

I thought today was fairly interesting from a mid pack standpoint. Starting on hards seemed to be the way to go and helped flip the field for those who went mediums second.

I guess the same could be said for the battle for first, but since Max kept pulling away even on his final laps on hards there wasn’t much drama there.

I agree. And the race was much better overall than I expected. They still had some DRS trains, but thanks to the tires, those broke up pretty quickly.

One thing, in hindsight of course, it sure seemed that the teams should have seen that the hard-med choice was going to be better than the opposite. I watched FP1 and it took a long time for rubber to get down, to the point that the medium drivers struggled quickly. Mercedes spent most of that session on hard tires and then went the fastest on mediums. With the rain last night, the track was a lot closer to Friday than yesterday.

One thing I may have learned- having a long straight with drs after a slow set of corners is better than high speed corners as the areo wake lets them be really close after the slow corners.

 

[solovsfett]

… I was very surprised to learn Lewis Hamilton may want to try an INDYCAR in the future. I’d never heard him express interest before. In fact, he had mentioned nascar about 10 years ago but not Indy…I wonder if the writing is on the wall Mercedes wants to go younger?