Open Wheel Racing 2021, anyone there to watch?

[MichVandal]

Very interesting. Andretti and Cadillac. Racer has 3-4 stories up on it now.

i can’t see how Andretti gets spurned again on this.

and if this does go through Colton Herta will be racing F1 as soon as the team is up and running.

Sorry, but I can. Given Andretti's history of success, there's no real evidence that it can achieve what Haas has, and add a brand new F1 powertrain? Do we really want to see Team Andretti lapped by both Williams cars?

And Colton still needs to earn his F1 points- which is also indicative of Andretti's success.

To get all of the teams to buy in, they would require in advance a massive sponsor for the entire F1 grid to make sure they don't drain the prize money by adding another team. And I do understand that if they finish last, they get nothing.

I really wish I could think otherwise, I really like Mario (and have met him), and recognize that Mike was a great Indycar driver (he's still 4th all time wins). But it's been a decade since RHR won a championship for them, and 5 years since a significant win (Sato at the 500).

 

[Kepler]

To get all of the teams to buy in, they would require in advance a massive sponsor for the entire F1 grid to make sure they don't drain the prize money by adding another team.

Is there a Holy Grail get out there? Is there a glaring absence, like Amazon, Apple, Shell? Dare I say... Toyota?

Could they make enough by adding Walmart for an American team? (I assume its sales are close to zero outside Murica, or has Walmart infested the rest of the planet?)


Edit: OMG. 2750 stores in Mexico. 800 in Central America. 400 in Africa.

"Wherever you find a guy without a grade school education... I'll be there."

 

[Russell Jaslow]

Is there a Holy Grail get out there? Is there a glaring absence, like Amazon, Apple, Shell? Dare I say... Toyota?

The holy grail is GM. (Forget Toyota. They are never coming back to F1.)

Amazon is already a major sponsor of F1. Shell was, but Aramco took their spot.

 

[Kepler]

Forget Toyota. They are never coming back to F1.

Not as a constructor but as power train? A lower order vendor? A sponsor?

 

[Russell Jaslow]

Sorry, but I can. Given Andretti's history of success, there's no real evidence that it can achieve what Haas has, and add a brand new F1 powertrain?.

Apparently, it's not going to be a Cadillac engine.

It's going to be an already existing powerplant (Renault or Honda). But it won't be just a sponsorship deal like Alfa Romeo with Sauber. GM will provide engine development resources. Which doesn't make any sense. First, why would GM help to develop a rival's engine? And how would it work with F1 rules concerning development when the development has already been done by the engine supplier? I'm confused.

 

[Kepler]

The holy grail is GM.

Thus, Cadillac. So this would be a big enough Sponsor to let in? And would GM be the constructor or Andretti?

 

[Russell Jaslow]

Not as a constructor but as power train? A lower order vendor? A sponsor?

My gut says no. They are pouring a ton of money into WEC and other sports car programs (Lexus). And I think their experience with F1 before left such a sour taste.

But of course, in the corporate world, attitudes change very quickly.

 

[Russell Jaslow]

Thus, Cadillac. So this would be a big enough Sponsor to let in? And would GM be the constructor or Andretti?

Exactly. GM is too big for F1 to ignore.

See my other post.

 

[Kepler]

It's ROI. I can imagine F1 is a license to print money if you do it right.

Also seems to me that Lexus would be a fantastic brand to run out there. It's maybe the only car that both screams F1 and sells big in the US. That and BMW. Porsche has the pedigree too but I am amazed at the low US sales.

Is it just me or does Mercedes still, somehow, just not fit F1? Even with all the winning, and the expense, it has the charisma of a Williams Sonoma Pizza Oven.

OK, maybe not the best comparison.

 

[Russell Jaslow]

It's ROI. I can imagine F1 is a license to print money if you do it right.

Also seems to me that Lexus would be a fantastic brand to run out there. It's maybe the only car that both screams F1 and sells big in the US. That and BMW. Porsche has the pedigree too but I am amazed at the low US sales.

I still don't see it.

Apparently, there are one or two additional bids that F1 has seen hooked up with an OEM. So, who knows? We shall see. (Though, my guess would be Porsche and Honda before Toyota.)

 

[Kepler]

I don't know anything but I thought Honda had the best of both worlds, rolling in prestige and profit by producing amazing power systems, but not putting anything on the line by actually racing a team.

 

[Russell Jaslow]

I don't know anything but I thought Honda had the best of both worlds, rolling in prestige and profit by producing amazing power systems, but not putting anything on the line by actually racing a team.

Honda's history in F1 is just weird. And a perfect example of never knowing what they really wanted.

 

[MichVandal]

Exactly. GM is too big for F1 to ignore.

See my other post.

They are also too fickle to take seriously. Just like my old company, Ford. All it takes is a small shift in the BOD, and the F1 program would be gone- let alone if the CEO goes for any reason. GM has no history in F1 at all, so like when Ford placed Jaguar in the name, a few bad years, and it's sold to some new team.

Cadillac has tried to make their brand relevant a few times, and really haven't gotten much traction (way better than Lincoln, but that's a different thread). So...

Besides, GM has no companies left in the EU- Opel is not theirs anymore (after decades of them being part of GM).

For the price they put into NASCAR + all of the money the put into Indycar + everything else- that's still not an F1 team.

 

[Russell Jaslow]

They are also too fickle to take seriously. Just like my old company, Ford. All it takes is a small shift in the BOD, and the F1 program would be gone- let alone if the CEO goes for any reason. GM has no history in F1 at all, so like when Ford placed Jaguar in the name, a few bad years, and it's sold to some new team.

Cadillac has tried to make their brand relevant a few times, and really haven't gotten much traction (way better than Lincoln, but that's a different thread). So...

Besides, GM has no companies left in the EU- Opel is not theirs anymore (after decades of them being part of GM).

For the price they put into NASCAR + all of the money the put into Indycar + everything else- that's still not an F1 team.

I agree.

Just one point -- GM has said they want to expand Cadillac's market overseas. Which is probably why they chose that brand for F1 and why they are very interested in taking the Cadillac GTP to Le Mans.

 

[MichVandal]

It's ROI. I can imagine F1 is a license to print money if you do it right.

Also seems to me that Lexus would be a fantastic brand to run out there. It's maybe the only car that both screams F1 and sells big in the US. That and BMW. Porsche has the pedigree too but I am amazed at the low US sales.

Is it just me or does Mercedes still, somehow, just not fit F1? Even with all the winning, and the expense, it has the charisma of a Williams Sonoma Pizza Oven.

OK, maybe not the best comparison.

Except Mercedes has a massive history in Grand Prix racing. They were part of the early Grand Prix, were at the start of F1, and only exited racing after the '55 disaster at Le Mans. Then they came back super strong as an engine supplier in the 90s. It took awhile to take the leftovers of the last full Honda works program, that turned into Brawn, and then Mercedes to be successful- but they did.

F1 is a better way to burn a billion dollars than print money, as it's REALLY hard to do it right.

 

[MichVandal]

I agree.

Just one point -- GM has said they want to expand Cadillac's market overseas. Which is probably why they chose that brand for F1 and why they are very interested in taking the Cadillac GTP to Le Mans.

Same reason we changed Stewart to Jaguar. And that didn't last very long.

I get why, but I question the methods. Cheaper to be a title sponsor for PSG or Dortmund or MU than spend your money on car racing.

 

[Russell Jaslow]

Except Mercedes has a massive history in Grand Prix racing. They were part of the early Grand Prix, were at the start of F1, and only exited racing after the '55 disaster at Le Mans. Then they came back super strong as an engine supplier in the 90s. It took awhile to take the leftovers of the last full Honda works program, that turned into Brawn, and then Mercedes to be successful- but they did.

F1 is a better way to burn a billion dollars than print money, as it's REALLY hard to do it right.

But Mercedes F1 turns a profit now for Mercedes (who only owns 1/3 of the team anyway nowadays). And Mercedes did see a large increase in car sales since they entered F1. Whether the initial investment was all worth it, only they know.

BTW, Mercedes (and Auto Union) were part of the early F1 days because Hitler paid for it.

 

[solovsfett]

Sorry, but I can. Given Andretti's history of success, there's no real evidence that it can achieve what Haas has, and add a brand new F1 powertrain? Do we really want to see Team Andretti lapped by both Williams cars?

And Colton still needs to earn his F1 points- which is also indicative of Andretti's success.

To get all of the teams to buy in, they would require in advance a massive sponsor for the entire F1 grid to make sure they don't drain the prize money by adding another team. And I do understand that if they finish last, they get nothing.

I really wish I could think otherwise, I really like Mario (and have met him), and recognize that Mike was a great Indycar driver (he's still 4th all time wins). But it's been a decade since RHR won a championship for them, and 5 years since a significant win (Sato at the 500).

i think you’re underestimating the Andretti brand. For F1 it’s about branding in America. GM/Cadillac is a big get IF this is real. And you get the Andretti name (Mario won a title and Mika Hakkinen says Michael was as good as he was as a driver) which means a lot in and outside America.

also, I think Andretti knows open wheel and F1 including the politics far more than Haas and GM will want to avoid embarrassments so I’d expect them to throw brinks trucks type $ at F1.

now think if this works…even if Andretti only achieves the midfield. The real big name that HAS gone F1 in the past may come lurking: Ford.

and they won with Schumacher IIRC.

as for Herta, he’ll get his points. And once F1 gets their heads out of their asses and treats INDYCAR as the premier open wheel series not named F1 and awards points accordingly more drivers like Herta will get chances.

 

[MichVandal]

I still think that the Andretti value is being overstated outside of the US. It's there, but there are far bigger names out there- like Prost (who's team struggled). And while the conjecture is that Mike was a great driver, he didn't show it. Mario won one championship. One. 45 years ago. Emerson Fittipaldi did better than him just prior.

It's his US success where Mario really made his name.

And I was at Ford when we decided to get back into F1. Didn't go that well. And didn't last long. (I also knew people who were involved in the 80s V6 program, and, well....) GM is run exactly the same way Ford is, so unless there is immediate success, they will decide to leave very quickly. Given Cadillac's drive to race on Sunday, sell on Monday- the fact that they are still struggling suggests to me that not many people have identified them will sporty cars. So tying them with F1???

Unless Andretti raises their game a lot, Herta will continue to struggle to get the points as fast as they are being take off his rolls. Herta's scoring problem is quite directly an Andretti problem. But given they can't make a car that is as consistently fast as Ganassi AND Penske, I very much can't agree that they know more than other teams out there. It would be great if they could, but, well, the on track performance just isn't there. Maybe in the next seasons? Dunno. But it's doubtful to me.

I fully understand that people want this to work, and want to put those names into the highest level of racing in the world. I like Mario, too. I just don't see how it would be competitive. Haas did well mostly because their strategy of letting someone else build their chassis, get all of the powertrain and suspension from someone else, and then focusing on the aero only. Maybe Andretti does that, but they need to present that concept.

 

[Kepler]

I thought the whole idea of Andretti was to capitalize on DTS and finally gain a big F1 following in the US market. For that, they don't need any profile outside the US. F1 is already big in the rest of the world (at least, the rest of the world that has money). The US is the final frontier.