Open Wheel Racing 2013...year of the driver swap!

[solovsfett]

Re: Open Wheel Racing 2013...year of the driver swap!

man I hope there are no serious injuries (fans) in Houston. It looks like a tire bounced over the catch-fence and there's word that 15 fans were injured or treated...

update - http://www.autoweek.com/article/20131006/INDYCAR/131009860

if you check out CNN, there's a clip that shows from the fan perspective. 3 fence panels were literally ripped off so that there was open air there once Franchitti bounced off. thank God there wasn't another car or two behind them that got into it or they'd have gone literally into the grandstand there...shades of Monza 1961

Indycar dodged a bullet today

 

[Runsub5]

Re: Open Wheel Racing 2013...year of the driver swap!

It appears that Vettel is prepared to run the table and that only mechanical problems may stop him. Nice to see Lotus on the podium. An under funded program that is able to compete. What's happening to Ferrari? With engines, tires strictly regulated and quality drivers, I can only surmise it must be aerodynamics.

 

[MattS]

Re: Open Wheel Racing 2013...year of the driver swap!

Besides the Vettel dominance at the front, I thought it was a decent race behind him. Hulk with a determined drive, and like other's have mentioned, the Lotus cars with a very good drive. I have to wonder if Grojean is finally maturing? He's always had the speed but is he now obtaining the experience and smarts to finish races? It's certainly worth watching.

I feel bad for Webber. I don't think he has anywhere near the talent the Vettel does but its uncanny the amount of bad luck he has.

What's happening to Ferrari? With engines, tires strictly regulated and quality drivers, I can only surmise it must be aerodynamics.

I think Ferrari's problems are partially aero (~30%) and mostly (~60%) the change of tires back to the 2012 spec. I think aero because on some tracks they are half way competitive and on others they just plain suck. Compare that to RB and (mostly) Lotus & Mercedes who are competitive on all tracks. Also, it's pretty evident that their real troubles started right after the change back to the old tires.

 

[solovsfett]

Re: Open Wheel Racing 2013...year of the driver swap!

Really ? With that stupid fake jump for joy on every podium ? God that always ****ed me off, because it was so clearly superficial. Those years ruined the sport for me....then again, maybe just never the same after Senna died. I hate all the winglets on the cars and that fact that all the development is aero and that the mechanical stuff is either frozen of standardized (engines, gearboxes). I'm actually glad the did away with refueling, but they should let the drivers / teams choose the tire compound they want to run for the race then calculus between soft and extra stops and hards and fewer stops. Also, so many of the tracks in this era are horrendous - and Korea is one of them. Hope they never go back and cant wait for Suzuka.

I didn't care for the jump but Schumacher was very talented and was real. When he tied Senna for wins all-time (or maybe it when he moved past him) he cried in the new conference and could not/did not answer more questions. I have respect for Schumy as a driver and person. Vettel? I think he'll look in the rearview mirror when he passes Senna/Mansell/Prost and go "what was that flash of light back there?"

my answer would be "drivers with twice your talent and 1/2 your ego"

 

[MattS]

Re: Open Wheel Racing 2013...year of the driver swap!

I hate all the winglets on the cars and that fact that all the development is aero and that the mechanical stuff is either frozen of standardized (engines, gearboxes). I'm actually glad the did away with refueling, but they should let the drivers / teams choose the tire compound they want to run for the race then calculus between soft and extra stops and hards and fewer stops. Also, so many of the tracks in this era are horrendous - and Korea is one of them. Hope they never go back and cant wait for Suzuka.

I don't mind the winglets and the aero development, but I do HATE the lack of development on the mechanical side. It seems stupid of the FIA to effectively halt development of mechanical while allowing a free for all (more or less) on the aero side.

I miss refueling. I liked the intrigue it brought to Q3 and the beginning of the race. It also helped with the possibility that a mid-field team could move significantly upwards based upon fuel/tire stragedy.

I do like your idea of choosing tires. Although I fear some team would do something stupid and try to run supersofts at a track like Monza.

 

[Runsub5]

Re: Open Wheel Racing 2013...year of the driver swap!

............

I feel bad for Webber. I don't think he has anywhere near the talent the Vettel does but its uncanny the amount of bad luck he has.

I do, too. However, I am looking forward to seeing him drive a Porsche at LeMans next year.

 

[Senna]

Re: Open Wheel Racing 2013...year of the driver swap!

I don't mind the winglets and the aero development, but I do HATE the lack of development on the mechanical side. It seems stupid of the FIA to effectively halt development of mechanical while allowing a free for all (more or less) on the aero side.

I miss refueling. I liked the intrigue it brought to Q3 and the beginning of the race. It also helped with the possibility that a mid-field team could move significantly upwards based upon fuel/tire stragedy.

I do like your idea of choosing tires. Although I fear some team would do something stupid and try to run supersofts at a track like Monza.

The thing that I didnt like about refueling was that it turned the race into a series of mini sprint races. Look at today...basically everyone has the exact same strategy and they all play off what the others have done so in effect, none of it matters because there is no difference in strategy....so those mid field teams / drives dont actually move up all that often. For example, Kimi was an anomoly this last weekend because he took an entirely different strategy at the beginning and pitted when others didnt and that was the only difference. DiResta and Force India have done that several times. I think becomes a much more dynamic mix if you separate the tires even move and then do the analysis of much quicker with multiple stops verses slower with maybe a single or no stops. I know a long way back but Mexico '90 was a perfect example of Senna getting tracked down by Prost (and Mansell) who had new soft tires and closed 30+ seconds over 10 laps to finally pass.

As for aero, it adds little to no value to anyone other than each team and doesnt really have any benefit outside of F1...which is part of the reason all the manufacturers left (cost didnt justify the expenditure). Mechanical can and can be value add. I just am not a fan of aero also because as each car goes by, there is no way that anyone can identify all of the really detailed aero treatments and differences between various cars, and yet the aero is close to the most expensive part of the car.

I understand on the Monza tire comment - my point is that if they needed to stop 6 times to be able to finish, then someone has done the math on the overall time gained thru using the supersofts versus the time drag from having to pit 6 times.

Love the dialogue.

 

[manurespreader]

Re: Open Wheel Racing 2013...year of the driver swap!

I was not a fan of the refueling for the same reasons. Personally I think there are too many races.

Has anyone seen Rush as of yet, and any comments abou ***?

 

[MattS]

Re: Open Wheel Racing 2013...year of the driver swap!

The thing that I didnt like about refueling was that it turned the race into a series of mini sprint races. Look at today...basically everyone has the exact same strategy and they all play off what the others have done so in effect, none of it matters because there is no difference in strategy....so those mid field teams / drives dont actually move up all that often. For example, Kimi was an anomoly this last weekend because he took an entirely different strategy at the beginning and pitted when others didnt and that was the only difference. DiResta and Force India have done that several times. I think becomes a much more dynamic mix if you separate the tires even move and then do the analysis of much quicker with multiple stops verses slower with maybe a single or no stops. I know a long way back but Mexico '90 was a perfect example of Senna getting tracked down by Prost (and Mansell) who had new soft tires and closed 30+ seconds over 10 laps to finally pass.

I think I am confused. I get what you mean about fuel and mini-sprint races and I agree with that for the top teams it can be true. After that I am lost. So you are saying that you don't like refueling because it creates mini-sprint races but then you say that currently all teams are on more-or-less the exact same stragedy. So you like that the teams all run the same stragedy? But then think that having more tire differentiation is the better way to create better racing? I must be missing something.

As for aero, it adds little to no value to anyone other than each team and doesnt really have any benefit outside of F1...which is part of the reason all the manufacturers left (cost didnt justify the expenditure). Mechanical can and can be value add. I just am not a fan of aero also because as each car goes by, there is no way that anyone can identify all of the really detailed aero treatments and differences between various cars, and yet the aero is close to the most expensive part of the car.

I agree with you about are adding little value to the car manufacturers in terms of street car development. And I too think that most cars look the same, especially at speed, to the average (most) fans. However, for me, this is part of what make Formula 1 different from any other form of racing. Teams build their cars to a spec and are is part of it. Just because fans can't tell the difference doesn't mean that it should be removed from the sport. I think the main reason aero is so expensive is because it is basically the only part of the spec that is still allowed to be constantly changed. If the FIA would open up the rules for mechanical then that portion of the expense would certainly gain.

I understand on the Monza tire comment - my point is that if they needed to stop 6 times to be able to finish, then someone has done the math on the overall time gained thru using the supersofts versus the time drag from having to pit 6 times.

Personally I would like to see more than one tire manufacture back in the sport. I think that would help with lap time/durability variations due to tires. I agree with you that I would like to see more variations in the compounds but leaving the teams open to any tire compound would lead to something stupid like my example of a super-soft at Monza. Maybe three different tires would be the better way to go?

Love the dialogue.

Me too!

Personally I think there are too many races.

Blasphmey!!!

I don't want to see a 40 race schedule like NASCAR, but I think the 18-22 race schedule is about right. I would like to see the FIA/Bernie halt the month long holiday in August. That is too long for my tastes.

 

[Runsub5]

Re: Open Wheel Racing 2013...year of the driver swap!

Personally I would like to see more than one tire manufacture back in the sport..........

I would like to see more than one tire manufacturer also. Greater diversity in tires may result in diminishing the current advantage aero is having with certain cars (Red Bull). For instance, perhaps Ferrari hasn't attained the performance of Red Bull because they haven't found the right tire for their chassis. I suppose one could say then change the chassis. Overall, I am happy with the current rules. I don't like fuel stops.

 

[joecct]

Re: Open Wheel Racing 2013...year of the driver swap!

I would like to see more than one tire manufacturer also. Greater diversity in tires may result in diminishing the current advantage aero is having with certain cars (Red Bull). For instance, perhaps Ferrari hasn't attained the performance of Red Bull because they haven't found the right tire for their chassis. I suppose one could say then change the chassis. Overall, I am happy with the current rules. I don't like fuel stops.

But where is the in race strategy? Right now, F1 is dull.

 

[Timothy A]

Re: Open Wheel Racing 2013...year of the driver swap!

I don't like 2 tyre mfger's in the series. Then you don't know if it's the car or the tyres that are making difference. To me F1 is all about building the best car, and you could have the best car, but if you are aligned with the #2 tyre co, your car won't show it's true speed.

F1 has actually had some good racing (behind Vettel) this year. I don't like Vettel either, but you have to tip your hat to the Vettel Rb combo, it's gold.

 

[joecct]

Re: Open Wheel Racing 2013...year of the driver swap!

Ayn Rand vs. Bernie Ecclestone

 

[Runsub5]

Re: Open Wheel Racing 2013...year of the driver swap!

But where is the in race strategy? Right now, F1 is dull.

Yes, it's dull because Vettel is dominating. Back in the pack there is still racing going on with cars over taking each other. I wish that competition existed up front.

 

[solovsfett]

Re: Open Wheel Racing 2013...year of the driver swap!

another race, another Vettel win, although this one had a bit of intrigue with the tires et al

Grosjean drove a supurb race. I was pleasantly surprised by that.

 

[manurespreader]

Re: Open Wheel Racing 2013...year of the driver swap!

I went and saw " Rush" this week. Needless to say, I'm going again. Maybe 5 more times!

Great movie. At the end of the movie they show the real guys and show Lauda as he is now. But it's not on for more than 3 or 4 seconds. also some very funny scenes at times. I saw them both at the 1976 USGP but to be honest, I was more interested in the 6 wheel Tyrrell's.

 

[solovsfett]

Re: Open Wheel Racing 2013...year of the driver swap!

yawn...Vettel.

http://www.racer.com/vettel-empty-after-fourth-f1-title/article/318141/

why is it that Webber's car suffers all of these failures? alternator?

it's been obvious to me that Vettel gets the superior equipment on the team and it taints my view of how good he really is.

 

[MattS]

Re: Open Wheel Racing 2013...year of the driver swap!

yawn...Vettel.

http://www.racer.com/vettel-empty-after-fourth-f1-title/article/318141/

why is it that Webber's car suffers all of these failures? alternator?

it's been obvious to me that Vettel gets the superior equipment on the team and it taints my view of how good he really is.

From the Racer article:

"It was very difficult for me personally to receive boos even though I hadn't done anything wrong." said Vettel

I guess he forogt about the Multi 21 incident. I wonder if he is really that ignorant or just playing dumb.

Oh well, he did run a good race.


I can't help but wonder if Webber isn't getting the, for lack of a better word, experimental parts. Almost like using his car as a test session of Vettel's car or for next season car. That or he is getting the inferior parts or he has the worst luck of anyone in racing.

And I also don't believe some of the radio transmission between RB and Vettel about his car is having "troubles" (various things as various tracks) yet it always manages to keep running. I think it is a ruse to throw people off of the fact that Webber is getting screwed. Yeah, I'm a conspiracy theorist!

I am just hoping that someone else will win a race this season.

I was impressed with Grojean and his run. He's beginning to show nice progress and rewarding Lotus for their faith in him. I guess that is why I am watching from home and Bouillier (sp?) in the head man at Lotus. I would have dumped Grojean a long time ago.

 

[Craig P.]

Re: Open Wheel Racing 2013...year of the driver swap!

yawn...Vettel.

http://www.racer.com/vettel-empty-after-fourth-f1-title/article/318141/

why is it that Webber's car suffers all of these failures? alternator?

it's been obvious to me that Vettel gets the superior equipment on the team and it taints my view of how good he really is.

They said in the NBCSN broadcast that Vettel had a similar alternator failure in a previous year where they told him to park the car before it failed catastrophically so they could diagnose it.

On another board I read, someone tallied up the respective mechanical retirements between Vettel and Webber, and the numbers were similar, certainly not disparate enough to support a conspiracy theory about quality of mechanical work on the two cars.

 

[MattS]

Re: Open Wheel Racing 2013...year of the driver swap!

They said in the NBCSN broadcast that Vettel had a similar alternator failure in a previous year where they told him to park the car before it failed catastrophically so they could diagnose it.

I think this was last year at the European GP.

On another board I read, someone tallied up the respective mechanical retirements between Vettel and Webber, and the numbers were similar, certainly not disparate enough to support a conspiracy theory about quality of mechanical work on the two cars.

I was surprised to read this so I looked it up. And that is correct. Since 2009 Vettel has had 9 official retirements, 6 were mechanical/electrical and 3 were collisions. Webber has had 10 official retirements, 3 were mechanical/electrical and 7 were collisions. I think why I thought it would be different is this season. Vettel has had one retirement (mechanical) and Webber has had 3 (2 mechanical/1 collision).