Open Wheel Racing 2013...year of the driver swap!

[solovsfett]

Re: Open Wheel Racing 2013...year of the driver swap!

yeah I think in some of his interviews Vettel comes across as a punk as well. Combine that with his entitled attitude and the dominance of his car and I can see why he was jeered. I'd be a boo-bird as well.

I mean I'd love to see ANYONE in F1 win a race, just not Vettel.

I was thinking about going to Austin in Nov but I think this little ***** will have sewn up the title by then so it wouldn't be as fun to go.

 

[MattS]

Re: Open Wheel Racing 2013...year of the driver swap!

Monza was a fast race. I am not a fan of the ban on re-fueling, and this race is a prime example of why. The tires were too hard for the track, but soft tires would be unsafe at the speeds they run, so the only reason to stop was for the manditory switch in compounds. Thus is was kind of a boring race.

Good showing by both Ferrari's. It's going to be too little too late for Massa, but still a nice showing in front of the Trifosi.

Vettel - The problem with him is two-fold. First he wins everything in sight and because he has a Newey car everyone can't help but wonder if his success is due more to car than talent. Second, he acts entitled when in the car. He complains when he doesn't get his way and he seemingly acts like everything he has gotten he deserves. There just doesn't seem to be any humility in him. I would love to see Kimi end up at RB to see what he can do in that car.


And the latest rumors (BS if you ask me) is that both Alsono and Massa will be out at Ferrari. With Alonso sitting out a year then moving to Lotus. And Kimi and Nico Hulkenburg going to Ferrari. On this one I will believe it when I see it. Especially the Alonso to Lotus part. I am also suspect that Kimi would take a second stint at Ferrari, but if one's not getting paid (reportedly Lotus is way behind) then a paycheck would look pretty good. Personally I think it will be Alonso and Nico H. next season in the red.

 

[alfablue]

Re: Open Wheel Racing 2013...year of the driver swap!

When is saw the rumors about Fernando and lotus, i figured they were going to change the name back to Renault.

And he must be asking a lot from Ferrari- he is SO loved by the Ferrari crowd- i remember that when he won at Monza when we were there. Kimi is almost too cold for the Latin crowd. Silly season is really up to it's name.

 

[Timothy A]

Re: Open Wheel Racing 2013...year of the driver swap!

Monza was a fast race. I am not a fan of the ban on re-fueling, and this race is a prime example of why. The tires were too hard for the track, but soft tires would be unsafe at the speeds they run, so the only reason to stop was for the manditory switch in compounds. Thus is was kind of a boring race.

Good showing by both Ferrari's. It's going to be too little too late for Massa, but still a nice showing in front of the Trifosi.

Vettel - The problem with him is two-fold. First he wins everything in sight and because he has a Newey car everyone can't help but wonder if his success is due more to car than talent. Second, he acts entitled when in the car. He complains when he doesn't get his way and he seemingly acts like everything he has gotten he deserves. There just doesn't seem to be any humility in him. I would love to see Kimi end up at RB to see what he can do in that car.


And the latest rumors (BS if you ask me) is that both Alsono and Massa will be out at Ferrari. With Alonso sitting out a year then moving to Lotus. And Kimi and Nico Hulkenburg going to Ferrari. On this one I will believe it when I see it. Especially the Alonso to Lotus part. I am also suspect that Kimi would take a second stint at Ferrari, but if one's not getting paid (reportedly Lotus is way behind) then a paycheck would look pretty good. Personally I think it will be Alonso and Nico H. next season in the red.

Hulkenburg needs to join Ferrari. I want to hear the German and Italian anthems back to back again. I don't buy Alonso leaving Ferrari, though one can guess he's pretty upset he can't fight Vettel though he's clearly the better driver. And as a fan I'm sick and tyred of Ferarri not being able to take the fight to Vettel. Ferrari needs to dump a boatload of money @ Newey, that would solve all their problems.

I thought it was funny they had Mario translating the Ferrari radio, though other than that he didn't seem to have anything special to input.

 

[Craig P.]

Re: Open Wheel Racing 2013...year of the driver swap!

Vettel - The problem with him is two-fold. First he wins everything in sight and because he has a Newey car everyone can't help but wonder if his success is due more to car than talent.

If you question Vettel's level of talent, let me point you to his record in Formula BMW ADAC series in 2004: 18 wins, one 2nd, and one 3rd in 20 races. Nico Rosberg won the series two years earlier with nine wins, Nico Huelkenberg won the series the following year with 8 wins, Esteban Gutierrez won Formula BWM Europe in 2008 with eight wins in 16 races. This isn't exactly an apples-to-apples comparison, as Rosberg and Huelkenberg won the series in their rookie season while Vettel was runner-up as a rookie, but from what I can find, Vettel's success in that series has not been matched.

(Timo Glock won the series in 2001, but Wikipedia doesn't have a rundown of season results prior to 2002.)

It should also be noted that when he drove a full season for Torro Rosso in 2008, Vettel finished ahead of both Red Bull drivers in the driver's championship—and it was Red Bull that had the Newey-designed car.

I think it's fair to criticize his attitude, and it's fair to argue that he has weaknesses in his driving, and it's fair to find the domination by a single team and driver boring, but I think it's ridiculous to suggest that his results are all car and no driver.

 

[MattS]

Re: Open Wheel Racing 2013...year of the driver swap!

I think it's fair to criticize his attitude, and it's fair to argue that he has weaknesses in his driving, and it's fair to find the domination by a single team and driver boring, but I think it's ridiculous to suggest that his results are all car and no driver.

Talk about blowing a statement out of proportion. I never said the results are all car and no driver. I suggested that "his success is due more to car than talent" and by that I meant the is one of the reasons that fans do not like him and boo him on the podium.

 

[solovsfett]

Re: Open Wheel Racing 2013...year of the driver swap!

You could move Newey to Toro Rosso, Force India whathaveyou and I guarantee that within 2-3 years they're challenging for wins and within 5 would be dominant.

move Vettel to the same and I highly highly doubt you're going to get quite THAT much. Raikkonen right now is showing his talent in an inferior car as did Senna at Toleman and Stefan Belof (coincidentally at the same time as Senna) and many others over the years (Hulkenberg shows flashes now and again) however...

Vettel was handed the car with the best engineer in F1 very early in his career (and a team with what seems unlimited funding). He's talented to be sure, but I think there are *at least* two guys if not 3 in the field right now who are better drivers. And I think that's why I haven't heard many calling him the "Greatest Ever" despite his being on the verge of a feat only 2 drivers have previously attained.

I wonder during this debate about other drivers...what if Ayrton had gone straight from Toleman to McLaren? what would the record book look like today?

What if Alonso had gone to RB? etc

 

[Craig P.]

Re: Open Wheel Racing 2013...year of the driver swap!

Talk about blowing a statement out of proportion. I never said the results are all car and no driver. I suggested that "his success is due more to car than talent" and by that I meant the is one of the reasons that fans do not like him and boo him on the podium.

I'm sure it was an overreaction in my case, but until I looked into his pre-Red Bull career, I know I hadn't fully appreciated what Vettel had accomplished before he started winning F1 championships.

You could move Newey to Toro Rosso, Force India whathaveyou and I guarantee that within 2-3 years they're challenging for wins and within 5 would be dominant.

It would be interesting to see what he could do with limited resources, both in terms of drivers and in terms of money for the cars.

move Vettel to the same and I highly highly doubt you're going to get quite THAT much.

We've already seen Vettel at Torro Rosso. He's the only driver (to date) to win a race with the team and also the only driver to finish better than 6th (two 4ths and three 5ths), and only one other driver got 6th (Vitantonio Liuzzi in one race in 2007). I'm not sure if that qualifies as "THAT much" to you, but I think it's getting blithely ignored when the argument is raised about what various drivers can do in inferior cars.

Raikkonen right now is showing his talent in an inferior car as did Senna at Toleman and Stefan Belof (coincidentally at the same time as Senna) and many others over the years (Hulkenberg shows flashes now and again) however...

See above. Vettel did more with Torro Rosso than Huelkenberg has done to date with Sauber, but Vettel did start slow with STR and there's a decent chunk of the season left for Huelkenberg to finish strong.

Vettel was handed the car with the best engineer in F1 very early in his career (and a team with what seems unlimited funding). He's talented to be sure, but I think there are *at least* two guys if not 3 in the field right now who are better drivers. And I think that's why I haven't heard many calling him the "Greatest Ever" despite his being on the verge of a feat only 2 drivers have previously attained.

I'm curious about what leads people to judge the other guys as better drivers. Subjective evaluation of performance? Prior career results? (It's not a rhetorical question; you're certainly not the first I've seen to rate other drivers higher, and I'd like to have a better understanding of how you reach that conclusion.)

 

[MattS]

Re: Open Wheel Racing 2013...year of the driver swap!

I'm sure it was an overreaction in my case, but until I looked into his pre-Red Bull career, I know I hadn't fully appreciated what Vettel had accomplished before he started winning F1 championships.

I apologize if I overracted to your comment. I was giving my opinion as to why I think Vettel is disliked.

I'm curious about what leads people to judge the other guys as better drivers. Subjective evaluation of performance? Prior career results? (It's not a rhetorical question; you're certainly not the first I've seen to rate other drivers higher, and I'd like to have a better understanding of how you reach that conclusion.)

I do not think there is any good way to quantatively rank drivers. I think it is all subjective when it comes right down to it.

I would rank as of today in their current form:

1. Alonso
2. Hamilton
3. Vettel
4. Kimi
5. Either Rosberg or Weber (Not sure which)

I base my "rankings" on results the driver obtains, the quality of the car, and what I shall call bone-headedness.

I think Alonso gets, by far, the most out of a inferior car. Reference these past two seasons in which the Ferrari contender has not been anywhere near the quality of the RB yet he is/has made the best of the situation and given Vettel a run for his money in the WDC. For me, that is the ultimate in a driver. One who drives above the equipment they are given. (I think Dale Earnhardt was very much the same and why I would rank him the best ever NASCAR driver). These are the drivers who take a top 10 car and make it a top 5, or a top 5 and get a win, etc.

Hamilton is very, very good, but not great, in all situations. He's a good qualifier, good at overtaking, runs well on a clean track. He rarely makes a mistake and is very good in the rain too (better than probably than the others I mention). Which is why I put him second.

Vettel, I think is extremely good at qualifying and if he is on a clean track, he's the best driver out there. I do not think anyone is fast when there is no traffic to contend with. He makes zero mistakes when he's alone. Now, I think he is not nearly as good in traffic as either Alonso or Kimi or Hamilton. His overtaking is not as clean and he gets what I would call desperate at times and that leads him to be overly agressive causing him to wreak or damage the car.

I think Kimi is much the same as Alonso in terms of getting the best out of a car. Both Alonso and Kimi are IMO excellent at overtaking and hard to pass. I rank the others above Kimi because they seem to have a touch more desire in them.

Webber is pretty fast, decent at overtaking, and very good at defending, but his starts are bad and he's can be prone to mental lapses. Rosberg is good but is a little too inconsistent.

Just my $.02.

 

[MattS]

Re: Open Wheel Racing 2013...year of the driver swap!

On another front....How is it that Dallara can make such an ugly car for Indycar and such a sleek car for the new Formula E series? I guess it really does come down to Indycar screwing up pretty much everything they do.

 

[Craig P.]

Re: Open Wheel Racing 2013...year of the driver swap!

I apologize if I overracted to your comment. I was giving my opinion as to why I think Vettel is disliked.

I don't think your reaction was unfair.

Thanks for the rundown on how you rate the drivers.

 

[MattS]

Re: Open Wheel Racing 2013...year of the driver swap!

I don't think your reaction was unfair.

Thanks for the rundown on how you rate the drivers.

And I should mention that there are other drivers who I think are fast but stupid. Particularly Grojean and Maldonado. Maybe it would be fair to rank drivers in tiers rather that strict 1-10 ranking as really I am splitting hairs with those top 5.

Tier 1: Alonso, Vettel, Hamilton, Kimi

Tier 2: Webber, Button, Rosberg

Tier 3: Massa, Grojean, di Resta, Sutil, Perez, and Maldonado

Tier 4: Riccardo, Hulkenberg, Vergne, Pic

Tier 5: everyone else mostly due to limited experience for me to evaluate. I will say I like Bottas and think he has a future.

I also think there are drivers who could do a better job than the Tier 4 & 5 and maybe some of the Tier 3 who are not currently on the F1 grid due to money (mostly) issues. Rubens, Kubica (if he was healthy enough to run), Heifeld, Kovalainen for sure. And possibly Alguersuari.

 

[Timothy A]

Re: Open Wheel Racing 2013...year of the driver swap!

I would rank as of today in their current form:
1. Alonso
2. Hamilton
3. Vettel
4. Kimi
5. Either Rosberg or Weber (Not sure which)

I'd go Kimi 2 Hamilton 3 Vettel 4. I'd put Webber way ahead of Rosberg. Rosberg isn't much of a dicer.

It is supposedly going to be announced Kimi to Ferrari this week.

Dixon got fined and but on probation for his comments after Baltimore. I do think the Ganassi war of words against Power & Penske is a bit much.

 

[MattS]

Re: Open Wheel Racing 2013...year of the driver swap!

Massa tweeted about 20 minutes ago that he will not be driving for Ferrari in 2014. I would imagine Kimi announcement coming soon....

Here are my predictions:

Alonso (even though I like him) will start whining in about April of 2014.

Massa will be driving in DTM or Brazilian stock cars in 2014.

 

[Russell Jaslow]

Re: Open Wheel Racing 2013...year of the driver swap!

Massa tweeted about 20 minutes ago that he will not be driving for Ferrari in 2014. I would imagine Kimi announcement coming soon....

Here are my predictions:

Alonso (even though I like him) will start whining in about April of 2014.

Massa will be driving in DTM or Brazilian stock cars in 2014.

Even though I think Alonso is the best driver currently in F1, he always appears to be weak psychologically. He couldn't handle the pressure of being teammates to Hamilton, and I suspect he won't be able to handle being teammates to Kimi. Heck, just look at his reaction earlier in the year when someone brought up the fact that Massa had outqualified him for like the fourth time in a row. He just doesn't seem to be able to handle any sort of self doubt of his abilities.

Reports say Kimi already signed with Ferrari. Lotus claims they can meet Kimi's demands, but I think that's a hail mary attempt to keep him.

Next move -- Hulkenberg to Lotus. Unless Alonso scurries over there first...

 

[MattS]

Re: Open Wheel Racing 2013...year of the driver swap!

Even though I think Alonso is the best driver currently in F1, he always appears to be weak psychologically. He couldn't handle the pressure of being teammates to Hamilton, and I suspect he won't be able to handle being teammates to Kimi. Heck, just look at his reaction earlier in the year when someone brought up the fact that Massa had outqualified him for like the fourth time in a row. He just doesn't seem to be able to handle any sort of self doubt of his abilities.

Although I believe Alonso right now is the best driver on the grid, I tend to agree with you somewhat. I very much think that Alonso needs to know and feel like he is the #1 driver on a team. When that gets threatened he gets whiny and doesn't handle it well. Alonso needs that reassurance that he's the best on the team.

Personally I think Ferrari is making a mistake. One because I like Massa very much and think he is a very capable #2 driver, and two because I think he compliments Alonso very well. He's just good enough to push Alonso every now and then, yet not good enough (anymore) to threaten Alonso's position as the #1.

Oh, and I read that Ferrari once the decision was made, offered Massa the opportunity to break the news the way he wanted. A nice show of respect there.

Maybe he will accept a 3rd driver role at Ferrari if the Lotus thing doesn't work out.

 

[solovsfett]

Re: Open Wheel Racing 2013...year of the driver swap!

I'm sure it was an overreaction in my case, but until I looked into his pre-Red Bull career, I know I hadn't fully appreciated what Vettel had accomplished before he started winning F1 championships.



It would be interesting to see what he could do with limited resources, both in terms of drivers and in terms of money for the cars.



We've already seen Vettel at Torro Rosso. He's the only driver (to date) to win a race with the team and also the only driver to finish better than 6th (two 4ths and three 5ths), and only one other driver got 6th (Vitantonio Liuzzi in one race in 2007). I'm not sure if that qualifies as "THAT much" to you, but I think it's getting blithely ignored when the argument is raised about what various drivers can do in inferior cars.



See above. Vettel did more with Torro Rosso than Huelkenberg has done to date with Sauber, but Vettel did start slow with STR and there's a decent chunk of the season left for Huelkenberg to finish strong.



I'm curious about what leads people to judge the other guys as better drivers. Subjective evaluation of performance? Prior career results? (It's not a rhetorical question; you're certainly not the first I've seen to rate other drivers higher, and I'd like to have a better understanding of how you reach that conclusion.)

I think Vettel's performance at Torro Rosso is difficult to compare w/Sauber. I feel Sauber is an inferior team to TR.

I'm glad you brought up his prior stats, which are enlightening. I consider Vettel like Greg Moore (only I was a HUGE fan of G. Moore). Moore won something like 9 of 11 or 10 of 11 of the Indy Lights races prior to moving to the CART.

the difference is Vettel went to the feeder team to the current best team in F1 w/the best engineer. Moore wound up at (at best) the 3rd best team in CART.

I'm not saying Vettel isn't talented and a great driver. He's both obviously. However I'm saying he's not the best current driver, (Alonso, Hamilton, Raikkonen I rate better) and he's coming across like an entitled *****. Given that seat I think any of Alonso, Hamilton or Raikkonen would get the same or better results.

to bring it full circle. Greg Moore won 5 CART races (I was there for two of them)...had he gone to Penske the record book would have been re-written, however...was he better than Montoya? Better than Michael Andretti, Zanardi or Tracy? I'm not certain of that.

and it comes back (to me) to the idea that this kid is very arrogant (and it's unbecoming) and not as great as he seems to think he is...especially when you know (or opine) that at least 3 other guys given that seat would do as well or better.

 

[MattS]

Re: Open Wheel Racing 2013...year of the driver swap!

And Kimi announced at Ferrari this morning.

 

[Timothy A]

Re: Open Wheel Racing 2013...year of the driver swap!

Massa tweeted about 20 minutes ago that he will not be driving for Ferrari in 2014. I would imagine Kimi announcement coming soon....

Massa is ok, but he generally isn't in the best position to help the team since Alonso has arrived there. He should be finishing right behind Alonso to maximize team points (he generally was with Kimi and Schumy), but he seems to lack race pace generally falls back in the races themselves over the last few years.

Kimi is a big psychological risk for the team, I would rather have had Hulkenburg, who has a brighter, longer future. The Kimi choice to me seems like a win next year desperation move rather than taking the time to develop Hulkenberg.

 

[MattS]

Re: Open Wheel Racing 2013...year of the driver swap!

Massa is ok, but he generally isn't in the best position to help the team since Alonso has arrived there. He should be finishing right behind Alonso to maximize team points (he generally was with Kimi and Schumy), but he seems to lack race pace generally falls back in the races themselves over the last few years.

Kimi is a big psychological risk for the team, I would rather have had Hulkenburg, who has a brighter, longer future. The Kimi choice to me seems like a win next year desperation move rather than taking the time to develop Hulkenberg.

I agree about Massa. He never seemed to recover from the 2009 Hungry spring accident. Just for fun I looked it up and of the three drivers that Massa drove with at Ferrari he finished on average 1.8 positions behind Schumi, 0.47 ahead of Kimi, and 3.5 behind Alonso. So he has certainly gone downhill.

If, and I think it certainly is a big if, Kimi and Alonso can get along then having two very experienced, fast, past champions will be awesome due to the changes in the 2014 rules. Of course if they don't get along then all will backfire. I think that is why they chose Kimi instead of Hulkenburg or even Bianchi. They want the experience for the changes.