Ohio State Buckeyes 2019-2020: Muzzling All Detractors

[pgb-ohio]

Re: Ohio State Buckeyes 2019-2020: Muzzling All Detractors

Pgb, your title was somewhat prophetic. Went over to the WCHA thread. This team is getting zero respect from the rest of the league. Hope the girls are reading it.

The league coaches picked tOSU to finish third. What respect are you thinking that the Buckeyes deserve that they aren't receiving? Should they be ranked above either of the teams that played for the title last year in your eyes?

Gotta stake out a middle ground on this one, and partially dissent from '86's conclusion.

There was one problematic post. The poster claimed that the Buckeyes would start losing, then go into "free fall." I see that as simply trash talk, unsupported by evidence. So yes, there's one poster who has a muzzling coming.

But quite honestly that was the only bulletin board material I found. All of the other comments were comfortably within the realm of reason.

Similar to ARM's point, NCAA Wins = Street Cred. Teams recording NCAA wins will naturally attract the most attention in the run up to the next season.

OK, when two particular teams dominate the conversation, I suppose you could say that the rest are neglected -- if only a little. But IMHO, passive neglect & active disrespect are pretty different things. It's not like anyone is referring to the rest of the WCHA as "The Little Five."

 

[ARM]

Re: Ohio State Buckeyes 2019-2020: Muzzling All Detractors

It's not like anyone is referring to the rest of the WCHA as "The Little Five."

Back in the early '70s when the Big Two, Little Five label was used for Big Ten football, it was dismissive, but it was also painfully true. Ohio State and Michigan did win all of the league's football titles. Since then, teams like Iowa, Wisconsin, and Michigan State have made themselves relevant quite regularly, and first Penn State and then Nebraska joined the fold. So in one sense, it no longer is OSU and Michigan with a gap back to everyone else. But at the same time, there are a lot of teams, Minnesota being one, who haven't competed on the same level as Ohio State in football in many, many years.

I think that you and I are in agreement. Since UMD last won the WCHA in 2010, either Wisconsin or Minnesota has taken the WCHA season and/or tournament every season, so that's part of why the coaches look to those two first. To the Buckeyes' credit, they served up some major whoopings to the Gophers two years ago. If coaches aren't predicting more of the same this year, it is mainly because Minnesota figures to more closely resemble its team from one year ago rather than the one that got owned by the ladies from Columbus.

As you're well aware, on a forum like this, we all have to deal with a certain amount of trash talk. UM has enjoyed more than its share of success, but someone like Timothy is always ready to look out for us and make sure that we retain some humility. We've only lost to BC one time, but TTT will never let us forget that time. Take even that one bit of trash talk that you mentioned as a compliment to the Buckeyes. Notice that poster didn't bother to throw any abuse in the direction of MSU or SCSU. It wasn't that long ago when Potter was coaching your team, it was looking up at BSU in the standings, and it nearly belonged in the same breath as the Mavericks and Huskies.

Good luck to the Buckeyes this season. You have two players on your roster who could easily emerge as WCHA POTY and nobody would be all that surprised. There haven't been many seasons where that has been the case.

 

[Timothy A]

Re: Ohio State Buckeyes 2019-2020: Muzzling All Detractors

As you're well aware, on a forum like this, we all have to deal with a certain amount of trash talk. UM has enjoyed more than its share of success, but someone like Timothy is always ready to look out for us and make sure that we retain some humility.

We were on the same team once, in the Civil War. I've always appreciated what the 1st Minnesota did at Gettysburg.

 

[ARM]

Re: Ohio State Buckeyes 2019-2020: Muzzling All Detractors

I've always appreciated what the 1st Minnesota did at Gettysburg.

Mostly, they died, which seems to have set a bad precedent in your mind.

 

[Timothy A]

Re: Ohio State Buckeyes 2019-2020: Muzzling All Detractors

Mostly, they died, which seems to have set a bad precedent in your mind.

No!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! It was a heroic stand that saved the day! There is no double meaning or backhanded cut against the lads of the 1st Minnesota or Minnesota in general. I have the fullest respect and admiration for all of Minnesota's contributions during the Civil War and all their contributions to National Security. On the sports front, go stand on a thawing lake this spring with cinderblocks chained to your ankles. Bring some food along, it would be sad to see you all starve.

 

[pgb-ohio]

Re: Ohio State Buckeyes 2019-2020: Muzzling All Detractors

Back in the early '70s when the Big Two, Little Five label was used for Big Ten football, it was dismissive, but it was also painfully true. Ohio State and Michigan did win all of the league's football titles.

In 1970's Football is was the Big Two & The Little Eight. But you definitely caught my reference.

FWIW, people here refer that era as the "10 Year War" between Woody Hayes & Bo Schembechler. There's even a full book with that title. Don't know for sure if Michiganders use that phrase, but I wouldn't be surprised if they do.

Since then, teams like Iowa, Wisconsin, and Michigan State have made themselves relevant quite regularly, and first Penn State and then Nebraska joined the fold.

Those Football teams aren't bad role models for OSU Hockey. Always in the mix, and occasionally breaking through for titles. Good results.

So in one sense, it no longer is OSU and Michigan with a gap back to everyone else. But at the same time, there are a lot of teams, Minnesota being one, who haven't competed on the same level as Ohio State in football in many, many years.

Gopher Football has had it moments. QB Mike Hohensee once lit up the Buckeye secondary for a nice win. Glen Mason's teams were generally tough on Defense; tough enough to grab one win in the Horseshoe. And there have also been some near misses. I suppose the rub is that since 1967, Gopher Football hasn't broken through for a title. "Sometimes in the mix, but never a Champ" doesn't quite have the same appeal.

I think that you and I are in agreement. Since UMD last won the WCHA in 2010, either Wisconsin or Minnesota has taken the WCHA season and/or tournament every season, so that's part of why the coaches look to those two first. To the Buckeyes' credit, they served up some major whoopings to the Gophers two years ago. If coaches aren't predicting more of the same this year, it is mainly because Minnesota figures to more closely resemble its team from one year ago rather than the one that got owned by the ladies from Columbus.

On the one hand, I'd argue that our team's FF Season constituted the kind of breakthrough I'm talking about. But on the other hand, prognosticators probably won't take the Buckeyes seriously for WCHA Championships until they win a WCHA Banner. Nature of the beast.

As you're well aware, on a forum like this, we all have to deal with a certain amount of trash talk. UM has enjoyed more than its share of success, but someone like Timothy is always ready to look out for us and make sure that we retain some humility. We've only lost to BC one time, but TTT will never let us forget that time. Take even that one bit of trash talk that you mentioned as a compliment to the Buckeyes. Notice that poster didn't bother to throw any abuse in the direction of MSU or SCSU. It wasn't that long ago when Potter was coaching your team, it was looking up at BSU in the standings, and it nearly belonged in the same breath as the Mavericks and Huskies.

I understand your perspective. For all intents & purposes, I agree.

But I can't resist injecting my sermonette on trash talk here. Trash talk wins my respect when two conditions are met. The comment must be:

1. Bulls-Eye Accurate; &
2. Genuinely Funny.

If the remark fails either test, I lose some respect for the poster. Far too often, would-be trash talkers are sloppy with the facts. Or they're petty & humorless. Or all of the above. Those posts are without merit. Just fighting for fighting's sake.

Good luck to the Buckeyes this season. You have two players on your roster who could easily emerge as WCHA POTY and nobody would be all that surprised. There haven't been many seasons where that has been the case.

Thanks & Yes. Lots to root for. Greatly looking forward to the season. Good luck to the Gophers as well.

 

[ARM]

Re: Ohio State Buckeyes 2019-2020: Muzzling All Detractors

In 1970's Football is was the Big Two & The Little Eight.

Back then, I was actually decent at Math. I clearly need to go back and work on my counting, subtracting, and/or pay attention to the frame of reference.

I agree that the 2018 season was a breakthrough for OSU; some challenges remain. That was an Olympic year, where UMD, Wisconsin, and UM were all impacted considerably, so the next step is to be a top-five team in the country in a non-Olympic season. For example, I thought that Clarkson's 2017 NCAA title was slightly more impressive than its 2014 crown, when teams like Harvard, BC, Minnesota, and Wisconsin had Olympic roster departures.

Another thing that has been surprising to me is that the Buckeyes played for the WCHA Championship in the second year of the tournament, but they haven't been back in the final since then. I understand the challenges that they face, but Bemidji State and NoDak (twice) have reached the final, and UMD did so as recently as 2017.

As far as the regular season, as impressive as Ohio State was in finishing a clear second in 2017-18, it was still five games behind Wisconsin for the top spot. That was something that UND struggled with, gaining a second-place tie one year, but never really contending for first. The Whioux were very good at playing spoilers, however. OSU showed last year that it can do so as well, and the Gophers sincerely thank you for that.

 

[pgb-ohio]

Re: Ohio State Buckeyes 2019-2020: Muzzling All Detractors

I agree that the 2018 season was a breakthrough for OSU; some challenges remain. That was an Olympic year, where UMD, Wisconsin, and UM were all impacted considerably, so the next step is to be a top-five team in the country in a non-Olympic season. For example, I thought that Clarkson's 2017 NCAA title was slightly more impressive than its 2014 crown, when teams like Harvard, BC, Minnesota, and Wisconsin had Olympic roster departures.

Accurate and fair. As I'm sure any astute observer of the sport would agree.

And yet, someone with less sportsmanship could easily repackage that analysis into snark. Suppose Gopher FB finally wins the B1G West. No doubt some helpful Badger fan would post something like: Our 4 best players left for the NFL early. Iowa had some early departures too. That's a cute trophy and all, but just remember your so-called championship has an asterisk by it.

See what I mean? The detractor's "early departure count" might be spot on. But that formulation is mostly a petty attempt to rain on the parade.

Another thing that has been surprising to me is that the Buckeyes played for the WCHA Championship in the second year of the tournament, but they haven't been back in the final since then. I understand the challenges that they face, but Bemidji State and NoDak (twice) have reached the final, and UMD did so as recently as 2017.

Another legitimate point. Though in this case I think the stakes are a lot smaller. I rate the potential accomplishments this way:

1. National Champion
2. Regular Season Champion
3. National Runner-Up
4. Frozen Four Semi-Finalist
5. NCAA Pairwise Bid
6. Final Face-Off Champion
7. Winner of 2 of 3 Conference Playoff Series/Final Face-Off Participant
8. Home Ice For The Playoffs
9. Final Face-Off Runner-Up/Semi-Final Winner.

The Final Face-Off offers two potential rewards: The Autobid & The Banner. The runner-up goes home with neither. Of course you'd rather win every time you hit the ice. And sure, winning one game on the "medium stage" is more impressive than a randomly selected regular season game. But for me, the priorities are the NCAA Tournament & the Regular Season full body of work.

As far as the regular season, as impressive as Ohio State was in finishing a clear second in 2017-18, it was still five games behind Wisconsin for the top spot. That was something that UND struggled with, gaining a second-place tie one year, but never really contending for first. The Whioux were very good at playing spoilers, however. OSU showed last year that it can do so as well, and the Gophers sincerely thank you for that.

You're Welcome? OK, sure. You're Welcome.

 

[ARM]

Re: Ohio State Buckeyes 2019-2020: Muzzling All Detractors

And yet, someone with less sportsmanship could easily repackage that analysis into snark... But that formulation is mostly a petty attempt to rain on the parade.

If it was taken as "snark" or "rain", then I apologize, for that was not my intent. The context here is more along the lines of, "Why don't people predict greater things for OSU this season?" Personally, I didn't think that the Buckeyes dropped off in any great way from two years ago to last season; I thought it was more a case of the rest of the league making greater improvement. In that context, the Olympic year ebbs and flows are relevant. For that single season, however, it counts all the same and no asterisk is needed.

As for Gopher football, should they ever win anything, we can then discuss the significance of that accomplishment. Until then, why bother?

I rate the potential accomplishments this way:

1. National Champion
2. Regular Season Champion
3. National Runner-Up
4. Frozen Four Semi-Finalist
5. NCAA Pairwise Bid
6. Final Face-Off Champion
7. Winner of 2 of 3 Conference Playoff Series/Final Face-Off Participant
8. Home Ice For The Playoffs
9. Final Face-Off Runner-Up/Semi-Final Winner.

While I realize that different accomplishments mean different things to different people (you, '86, and I will likely never completely agree on the value of a shootout win!), I personally would swap at least a couple of these.

Having just lived through a season with both, I'd take the NCAA runnerup finish over the WCHA season crown. The latter was more of a gift that OSU & UW bestowed upon UM. When you finish 2nd, you didn't win the NCAAs, but you never will unless you're in that game. The Gophers have played in the national championship game 10 times and won 7. I'd take the runner-up finish of 2006 with no championships over the WCHA season title and no NCAA tournament of 2001 in a heartbeat.

Similarly, if my team is getting bounced in the quarters, then I'd take winning the WCHA tourney to gain entrance to nationals (UM in 2018) over making the tournament based on PWR (2011). So for at least when accompanied by a first-round loss, I'd prefer #6 over #5. If the team has more realistic NCAA title aspirations, then it is better to know that you're spot in the field is secure. However, I've never thought my team was on the verge of a natty when it couldn't nail down a tournament berth fairly comfortably.

Finally, I'd also switch the last two. Maybe I don't value it enough because UM has always had home ice (or a bye) in the first round of the WCHA playoffs. But going by "it's not where you start but where you finish", give me 2nd place over a lower finish. It's another case of having to be in it to win it.

The Final Face-Off offers two potential rewards: The Autobid & The Banner. The runner-up goes home with neither. Of course you'd rather win every time you hit the ice. And sure, winning one game on the "medium stage" is more impressive than a randomly selected regular season game. But for me, the priorities are the NCAA Tournament & the Regular Season full body of work.

I basically agree. I do appreciate that you and I can think differently, even reach an impasse, and it doesn't negatively color our future interactions. I respect your thinking as laid out above, even in cases where it might not match mine exactly.

 

[pgb-ohio]

Re: Ohio State Buckeyes 2019-2020: Muzzling All Detractors

If it was taken as "snark" or "rain", then I apologize, for that was not my intent. The context here is more along the lines of, "Why don't people predict greater things for OSU this season?" Personally, I didn't think that the Buckeyes dropped off in any great way from two years ago to last season; I thought it was more a case of the rest of the league making greater improvement. In that context, the Olympic year ebbs and flows are relevant. For that single season, however, it counts all the same and no asterisk is needed.

I'm hoping to set aside time for more commentary later this evening. But there's one misunderstanding I need to put to rest immediately.

The "helpful Badger fan" was not a reference to you or your prose. Not in any way, shape or form. That fictional fellow was meant to stand in contrast to your expressed viewpoint.

 

[osualum86]

Re: Ohio State Buckeyes 2019-2020: Muzzling All Detractors

LOL, guess I started something. Pgb pretty much nailed it, I took that one trash post and ran with it. I took the one post about our kids going into "free fall" and made a blanket indictment of the entire thread, which was not correct. I don't have a problem with the coach's picks at all. Until we prove otherwise, I would pick us behind Wisconsin and Minnesota myself.

Cannot wait to get to the OSU Ice Rink in a couple days. From the interviews I have watched and the things I have read, the girls are ready to go. They are well aware that they lost games they shouldn't have lost last season. They know the bad losses are what cost them a trip to the NCAA Tournament and are committed to treating every game with the same importance as they do the games vs Wisconsin and Minnesota. Should be a fun season. I have already started getting things ready for tailgating. What can I say, been waiting six months for this!!

 

[pgb-ohio]

Re: Ohio State Buckeyes 2019-2020: Muzzling All Detractors

Just a few more comments...

While I realize that different accomplishments mean different things to different people (you, '86, and I will likely never completely agree on the value of a shootout win!), I personally would swap at least a couple of these.

Having just lived through a season with both, I'd take the NCAA runnerup finish over the WCHA season crown. The latter was more of a gift that OSU & UW bestowed upon UM. When you finish 2nd, you didn't win the NCAAs, but you never will unless you're in that game. The Gophers have played in the national championship game 10 times and won 7. I'd take the runner-up finish of 2006 with no championships over the WCHA season title and no NCAA tournament of 2001 in a heartbeat.

This one was my toughest call. I almost went with "2A" & "2B." Note that even with the Regular Season title crashing the party, 3 of my top 4 are still drawn from the NCAA Tournament.

I do understand your point. At the NHL Level, I'd definitely rank the Stanley Cup Runner-Up ahead of the President's Trophy Winner. But keep in mind that the SC Runner-up has won 3 rounds to get to the Final, playing somewhere between 12-21 games. To get to the NCAA Final requires just 2 wins. Granted, surviving 2 single elimination games against top competition is no small thing. But there's something to be said for the staying power it takes to get to the Cup Final or to win a WCHA Regular Season Crown.

Similarly, if my team is getting bounced in the quarters, then I'd take winning the WCHA tourney to gain entrance to nationals (UM in 2018) over making the tournament based on PWR (2011). So for at least when accompanied by a first-round loss, I'd prefer #6 over #5. If the team has more realistic NCAA title aspirations, then it is better to know that you're spot in the field is secure. However, I've never thought my team was on the verge of a natty when it couldn't nail down a tournament berth fairly comfortably.

Winning a tournament & earning a banner is a ton of fun, no doubt about it. My thought remains that nailing down a secure berth in the pairwise is still a little more impressive.

Finally, I'd also switch the last two. Maybe I don't value it enough because UM has always had home ice (or a bye) in the first round of the WCHA playoffs. But going by "it's not where you start but where you finish", give me 2nd place over a lower finish. It's another case of having to be in it to win it.

On this item, Vantage Point probably explains the difference. Winning a playoff series in Columbus means ending the home schedule on a major high. Winning a playoff series in Minneapolis just means you're reporting back to the same ice sheet the following weekend. I presume that the first round has more of a stepping stone feel at Ridder, for this reason.

I basically agree. I do appreciate that you and I can think differently, even reach an impasse, and it doesn't negatively color our future interactions. I respect your thinking as laid out above, even in cases where it might not match mine exactly.

Thumbs Up!

 

[pgb-ohio]

Re: Ohio State Buckeyes 2019-2020: Muzzling All Detractors

LOL, guess I started something.

Yes, you're such a trouble-maker.

Actually it was an interesting conversation that made me think. Among other things, I'm keeping an open mind on the rank order of the various accomplishments.

A couple of takeaways: It is good to keep in mind that there can be a fine line between positive contributions to the board and posts that don't contribute. And also good to keep in mind that blunt truth isn't necessarily trash talk.

 

[Puckdrop14]

Yes, you're such a trouble-maker.

Actually it was an interesting conversation that made me think. Among other things, I'm keeping an open mind on the rank order of the various accomplishments.

A couple of takeaways: It is good to keep in mind that there can be a fine line between positive contributions to the board and posts that don't contribute. And also good to keep in mind that blunt truth isn't necessarily trash talk.

If you look across D1 women’s hockey, I don’t believe any team has progressed as rapidly as the Buckeyes maybe with the exception of Colgate. I would expect that this year will be no different and that the Buckeyes will be a team that opponents take seriously and that includes Wisconsin and Minnesota. The key will be to win the games you should win as was mentioned in a previous post. If they do, it will be a very good year for the Buckeyes.

 

[Timothy A]

Re: Ohio State Buckeyes 2019-2020: Muzzling All Detractors

From reading the USCHO wWCHA preview it looks like Muzzy wants to play musical goalies.

 

[osualum86]

Re: Ohio State Buckeyes 2019-2020: Muzzling All Detractors

Yes, you're such a trouble-maker.

Actually it was an interesting conversation that made me think. Among other things, I'm keeping an open mind on the rank order of the various accomplishments.

A couple of takeaways: It is good to keep in mind that there can be a fine line between positive contributions to the board and posts that don't contribute. And also good to keep in mind that blunt truth isn't necessarily trash talk.

You are right, I am a trouble-maker.

I think one thing we can all agree on regarding the accomplishments is #1 ... a National Title. I really want that for our girls someday. I want them to experience winning a championship. I believe we have the coach and the players in place to make that a reality soon.

Agree on the takeaways. I don't have a problem with the truth, and I enjoy the positive contributions from you, and other good people who come by here to visit our thread. I actually wish more would come to the games so I could meet people in person, but I understand we are an absolute outpost in this league (here in central Ohio) and it's an undertaking to get from Minnesota or even Wisconsin down here to Columbus.

 

[osualum86]

Re: Ohio State Buckeyes 2019-2020: Muzzling All Detractors

If you look across D1 women’s hockey, I don’t believe any team has progressed as rapidly as the Buckeyes maybe with the exception of Colgate. I would expect that this year will be no different and that the Buckeyes will be a team that opponents take seriously and that includes Wisconsin and Minnesota. The key will be to win the games you should win as was mentioned in a previous post. If they do, it will be a very good year for the Buckeyes.

Totally agree with your key. I am probably beating a dead horse on that because I have been saying that the entire offseason. The PairWise is unforgiving when you lose to teams you are supposed to beat, and those losses kept the Bucks out of the NCAA Tournament last season. A top ten finish is nothing to be ashamed of, and I think the girls learned their lessons regarding the importance of every game. Cannot wait to get to the OSU Ice Rink tomorrow! Heck, I cannot wait to get there a couple hours early and tailgate! Yes, us OSU fans tailgate for Women's Hockey, too!!

 

[osualum86]

Re: Ohio State Buckeyes 2019-2020: Muzzling All Detractors

From reading the USCHO wWCHA preview it looks like Muzzy wants to play musical goalies.

LOL, I haven't read that yet, but Quinn Kuntz is coming in with some impressive credentials, so I don't think it would be a bad idea to give Andrea Braendli a rest every once in a while. Plus, I am pretty sure we will be without Andrea for some international competitions when she suits up for Team Switzerland. Hey, while I have you, sorry I have not been to Madison in a couple seasons, but then, the way we played up there last season, maybe Mrs 86 and I are bad luck! Two shootout wins, I am thinking we should continue to stay home, but then, we always have a nice time there, and you and many of the other fans are really nice. I kid you not, one year, some Wisconsin people left us tickets, and I have no clue who it was, they just left us tickets. That is one of the things I really love about Women's College Hockey ... we all cheer for our teams, but in the end, we are a close-knit group.

Well, I will close this up. Everyone, enjoy your games this weekend! I am stoked that the season is starting!!

 

[NMH]

Re: Ohio State Buckeyes 2019-2020: Muzzling All Detractors

Coming to the discussion of assistant coaches quite late, but wanted to add some pennies.

IMO, a large part of how/why things were so bad in the pre-Muzerall era is that the Athletic Department paid absolutely no attention to women's hockey. There was no oversight.
It wouldn't surprise me if part of the turnover is the result of a lot more attention being paid as a reaction to that time.

That being said, Elander leaving was about health and family stuff, as is Cassels. I don't find it concerning at this point, but I guess I can see why people are asking questions.

 

[ARM]

Re: Ohio State Buckeyes 2019-2020: Muzzling All Detractors

... I think the girls learned their lessons regarding the importance of every game.

As a fan, I'm also trying to come to grips with the fact that the other team has D-I players as well. I saw cases last year where a good team playing hard wasn't always enough. One example was when UM went to St. Cloud in November. Halfway through, the Gophers were dominating territorially, but Polusny was playing great so their lead was only 1-0. Then UM's 7th D, who was an injury replacement, made a perfect pass to set up a Husky for the equalizer. SCSU goes to the locker room with a tie game and 20 minutes to steal an upset against a team that they haven't beaten in their careers, and much longer than that. They come out fired up, grab a 2-1 lead, and suddenly, the favorite is in real trouble despite not playing badly at all. Ultimately, UM won in OT, but needed some good fortune and its advantage in scoring depth to come out on top.

I do understand the propensity for an up-and-coming team like OSU to get fired up to play a perennial power, but then be unable to match that intensity in the following weeks. That's just human nature, and everyone does it. In spite of the cliches, nobody gives 110% all of the time (or any of the time!)

I hope to get to OSU Ice Rink some day to meet you. So far, I've yet to travel that distance for anything other than a Frozen Four, but I'll work on it.