Off season topic:West remains supreme in D1; East remains dominate in D3. What gives?

[OnMAA]

Re: Off season topic:West remains supreme in D1; East remains dominate in D3. What gi

I suspect that most agree it takes more than just one variable to create a winning program. Lots of good points made by many posters.

Lets summarize what has been said:
- Resources
- Coaching
- Good competition, specially in later parts of the season
- Recruiting

They all go hand in hand....Great resources (= budget and infrastructure) allows for good recruiting and good coaching hires. This leads to a good startup program that once initial success is created, helps the building and recruiting. The only variable hard to control is the competition in your own league and many point to that as being a key ingredient. Right now the WCHA has the depth and strength.

The question is......
..What can HE, the ECAC and CHA do to combat this? Better scheduling? More intra conference games late amongst top teams ?. Any suggestions. ?

 

[rugrats]

Re: Off season topic:West remains supreme in D1; East remains dominate in D3. What gi

I don't know if this would make the CHA stronger, but it needs another team or two... to make it a little more attractive and at least look like a legitimate conference.

 

[dave1381]

Re: Off season topic:West remains supreme in D1; East remains dominate in D3. What gi

I don't know if this would make the CHA stronger, but it needs another team or two... to make it a little more attractive and at least look like a legitimate conference.

Well it's 1 team away from an autobid. That's a problem.

 

[dave1381]

Re: Off season topic:West remains supreme in D1; East remains dominate in D3. What gi

I suspect that most agree it takes more than just one variable to create a winning program. Lots of good points made by many posters.

I agree resources, coaching, competition, and recruiting success are all complementary and they all matter.

The reason I focus on "competition" is I think it's the one area the East has always lagged the West in the last decade -- whereas many top Eastern programs have been just fine in terms of resources, coaching, recruiting at various stretches.

The question is......
..What can HE, the ECAC and CHA do to combat this? Better scheduling? More intra conference games late amongst top teams ?. Any suggestions. ?

Yes, I think Eastern teams should schedule more February nonconference games. The four Beanpot teams already do this, and I think it helped each of them (granted Beanpot is still conference opponents for BU/BC/Northeastern, but it gave these teams a couple extra quality games). The norm has otherwise been to reserve February for conference play.

 

[OnMAA]

Re: Off season topic:West remains supreme in D1; East remains dominate in D3. What gi

Well it's 1 team away from an autobid. That's a problem.

Can you clarify the problem statement?.

Is the problem that they are one team away from the Autobid, i. e they don't have one, or does it become a problem once they reach the autobid state, and what exactly is the problem with a 3 vs 4 autobid system ?. Just Wondering.

 

[dave1381]

Re: Off season topic:West remains supreme in D1; East remains dominate in D3. What gi

Can you clarify the problem statement?.

Is the problem that they are one team away from the Autobid, i. e they don't have one

yes, that's what I meant, esp. in the context of the CHA's growth, and to what extent it's a "legitimate context"

Of course the way Mercyhurst dominates the conference it hasn't mattered much so far.

 

[OnMAA]

Re: Off season topic:West remains supreme in D1; East remains dominate in D3. What gi

yes, that's what I meant, esp. in the context of the CHA's growth, and to what extent it's a "legitimate context"

Of course the way Mercyhurst dominates the conference it hasn't mattered much so far.

OK Thanks....I was hoping with the addition of a school like SU, that we'd see more competition in the CHA. It has not materialized yet, but can see it coming soon. Hurst may need some retooling given what they are loosing with their senior class. SU is still relatively new and upcoming.

With Penn coming in, and RIT talking about a move up once the moratorium lifts could lead to a reshuffle. We just had a re-shuffle amongst the MEN with the Big Ten. Can't see a womens Big Ten any time soon. Numbers not there. Penn would right now be more natural with the CHA geography wise. JMO.

 

[IceIsNice]

Re: Off season topic:West remains supreme in D1; East remains dominate in D3. What gi

Of course the way Mercyhurst dominates the conference it hasn't mattered much so far.

I don't think I'm out of line in suggesting some skepticism that this will continue next year. I think my Hurst pals, if they're honest, will humbly agree.

 

[dogwatcher]

Re: Off season topic:West remains supreme in D1; East remains dominate in D3. What gi

I think at the D3 level it comes down to coaching. I know that I have watched a lot of west hockey and can say that several of the teams play a hybred pond, peewee hockey system. If a coach is not willing to do the work it takes to teach the game one must wonder how hard they are recruiting. I have seen the east teams play but not as often even the middle of the road programs seem to play within the system they have been taught. That is not a rule for every team east and west of coarse but a more often then not case. I know everbody say's it's the little Ivy thing but consider this more players can't qualify for one of those schools then those that can.

 

[ARM]

Re: Off season topic:West remains supreme in D1; East remains dominate in D3. What gi

Well it's 1 team away from an autobid. That's a problem.

Of course the way Mercyhurst dominates the conference it hasn't mattered much so far.

I think if we look at the whole country or at the CHA in particular having vs not-having an autobid has mattered little in terms of getting into the NCAAs. Teams that have won a conference tournament would typically have made the NCAAs at large had there been no autobid. In the CHA, Mercyhurst always qualifies at large and nobody else from the conference ever wins the CHA tourney. Would somebody have more incentive to make a CHA postseason run if they knew that would qualify them for the NCAAs? Possibly, but I'd think they have a ton of incentive as it is today, given that the CHA tournament is essentially their season. As for impact on recruiting, I can't see a lot of coaches or players targeting, "hey, we have an autobid to play for!"

I do think that resources and coaching are also factors in D-I, though not stand-alone factors. It is true that UMD is not a large school, but their women's hockey program definitely has more resource available than the median women's hockey school. E.g., how many D-I head coaches would you guess earn as much as Coach Miller? My guess -- not many. And as far as coaching goes, over the WCHA's history when they've won all 12 national championships, only 3 coaches have guided a team to the top. I think a team has to be in the top half as far as resources and coaching go in order to get into the picture so that factors like strength of competition can push you over the top.

And just as the three most important factors in real estate are location, location, and location, the bottom line factors in D-I hockey are talent, talent, and talent. The team that wins may not have the absolute most, but they can't be sacrificing much to their opponent and still come out on top with any regularity.

 

[dave1381]

Re: Off season topic:West remains supreme in D1; East remains dominate in D3. What gi

I think if we look at the whole country or at the CHA in particular having vs not-having an autobid has mattered little in terms of getting into the NCAAs.

Agreed.

Would somebody have more incentive to make a CHA postseason run if they knew that would qualify them for the NCAAs? Possibly, but I'd think they have a ton of incentive as it is today, given that the CHA tournament is essentially their season.

Agreed, same for ECAC East in 01-02 / Hockey East in 02-03 & 03-04.

As for impact on recruiting, I can't see a lot of coaches or players targeting, "hey, we have an autobid to play for!"

While I agree coaches wouldn't say that, I do think it lends to the perception that the CHA is not a first-tier conference. I think it does matter to some degree, and it's more symbolic than anything else.

 

[ARM]

Re: Off season topic:West remains supreme in D1; East remains dominate in D3. What gi

While I agree coaches wouldn't say that, I do think it lends to the perception that the CHA is not a first-tier conference. I think it does matter to some degree, and it's more symbolic than anything else.

True; I don't think that perception of the CHA would change much if they add a 6th team that is a doormat and there is zero shift in the balance of power. A team like Syracuse rising to give the league some legitimate competition would help more.

 

[Slapper]

Re: Off season topic:West remains supreme in D1; East remains dominate in D3. What gi

I know that the WCHA has won every NCAA D1 championship, and from what I understand an Eastern team has always prevailed in D3. I am at a loss to explain why these streaks - now about 10 years running - seem to continue year after year. You would think that either the west or the east would generally prevail at both levels in some years, or perhaps it would be cyclical.

So can anyone explain why the West has dominated at D1, but the reverse is very much true in D3?

And looking ahead, which streak do you think will end first?

WCHA is supreme because of their regular season schedule.
East worries too much about their regular season records.
The last game of the year is the only game that matters.
Let any top Eastern team go into Gophers for 2, then Badgers for 2 then Bulldogs for 2 etc........it's painfully obvious you won't have a 30-1 regular season record.
This schedule creates a sense of urgency that the WCHA become accustomed.
East has good teams but are missing this training.
ie.Until Harvard plays Cornell, Dartmouth & BU plays BC 4 home games in this manner, the WCHA will continue its streak.
East would also benefit from some great hockey & intense rivalries.

 

[dave1381]

Slapper - the east has more teams who are closer.together. that's why they play each other more. It's nothing to do with wanting a pretty record.

 

[ARM]

Re: Off season topic:West remains supreme in D1; East remains dominate in D3. What gi

ie.Until Harvard plays Cornell, Dartmouth & BU plays BC 4 home games in this manner, the WCHA will continue its streak.
East would also benefit from some great hockey & intense rivalries.

Slapper - the east has more teams who are closer.together. that's why they play each other more. It's nothing to do with wanting a pretty record.

I think Slapper is saying roughly the same thing that you've said for years now -- that the minimum of four weekends where the top west teams play two tough games is part of their advantage. You are right that the motive for the East teams not doing this is not to inflate their regular season record, but because the ECAC is too large to play this many games against each conference opponent, especially given half the members are Ivies; and HEA wants to maintain enough flexibility in the schedule to play ECAC teams.

 

[dave1381]

Agreed

 

[Hux]

Re: Off season topic:West remains supreme in D1; East remains dominate in D3. What gi

I think Slapper is saying roughly the same thing that you've said for years now -- that the minimum of four weekends where the top west teams play two tough games is part of their advantage. You are right that the motive for the East teams not doing this is not to inflate their regular season record, but because the ECAC is too large to play this many games against each conference opponent, especially given half the members are Ivies; and HEA wants to maintain enough flexibility in the schedule to play ECAC teams.

I think the Ivies need to drop out of the ECAC and just play a 24 game schedule within the Ivy league, with five non-league games. Then the ECAC adds RIT, while the CHA adds Penn State. Those leagues play 24 league games, plus 8-10 non-conference games like Hockey East. That gives you five auto-bids and three at large bids.

 

[Slapper]

Re: Off season topic:West remains supreme in D1; East remains dominate in D3. What gi

I think Slapper is saying roughly the same thing that you've said for years now -- that the minimum of four weekends where the top west teams play two tough games is part of their advantage. You are right that the motive for the East teams not doing this is not to inflate their regular season record, but because the ECAC is too large to play this many games against each conference opponent, especially given half the members are Ivies; and HEA wants to maintain enough flexibility in the schedule to play ECAC teams.

Arm
Great idea..would be great with 4 back to back games on weekends, 2 home & 2 away.
Plus a few out of conference games.
Ivies
HE
ECAC
CHA
WCHA
How would the playoffs work?

 

[Slapper]

Re: Off season topic:West remains supreme in D1; East remains dominate in D3. What gi

Hux I posted on Arm by mistake..Great idea..

 

[granddaddyscout]

Re: Off season topic:West remains supreme in D1; East remains dominate in D3. What gi

I think the Ivies need to drop out of the ECAC and just play a 24 game schedule within the Ivy league, with five non-league games. Then the ECAC adds RIT, while the CHA adds Penn State. Those leagues play 24 league games, plus 8-10 non-conference games like Hockey East. That gives you five auto-bids and three at large bids.

Sounds like a way to reward mediocrity, creating 5 NCAA auto bids increases the likelihood that a quality team or two get> left out. We should be looking at ways to ensure the best 8 teams get a shot. With a likely down year from MH the addition of Penn State would mean a guaranteed spot for an un-qualified team. Frankly it would be better to eliminate auto bids altogether. BTW I know PSU is not joining next year, just making the point.