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ObamaRama 8

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Re: ObamaRama 8

And what makes it truly jaw-dropping, is that 50% number, that median income, is somewhere around $46,000.

So yeah, those making more than $46,000 pay 96% of the income taxes in this country. Who do those rich people think they are?

Good thing they haven't invented the tax refund yet, otherwise your numbers might not reflect the situation accurately.
 
Re: ObamaRama 8

Good thing they haven't invented the tax refund yet, otherwise your numbers might not reflect the situation accurately.

What's wrong with them? The median income level in this country, meaning 50% earn more,, and 50% earn less, is somewhere around $46,000, it might be $48,000. But in that ballpark.

These are taxpayers. If 50% of taxpayers pay 96% of the income taxes, then nothing, even getting refunds, changes that fact. They still paid income taxes. They didn't pay as much as they had withheld from their paychecks, and so got refunds.
 
Re: ObamaRama 8

We went over this like gazillion times. but I'll do a cliff note.

Max corporate taxe rate is 35%. on average corporations pay around 15%.
I've no idea on the max income tax rate but if you make money in other forms like Buffet does thru investments then it's 15%.

stock option induced criminals running rampant making up numbers including Fannie/Freddie all thru 90s and now. Plus stock options are diversified over time (4times a year/average prices) and for the top exec they will just reprice those worthless options anyway.

One thing I've noticed having these "debates". Truth doesn't matter. Facts don't matter. Numbers don't matter. It's your belief and faith in a particular ideals. It's almost like politics or religion :eek:

And everytime I bring up a questionable move by Fed/Treasury helping the banks (corporations) we get sidetracked.
 
Re: ObamaRama 8

Lets remember that "tax deduction" is not the same as "tax credit"... think of it as "tax free spending".

Ah hell, lets have it rufus's way... we'll go to 12% unemployment and after we get amnesty we'll shoot to 15%... we'll show those corporate slimeballs by shooting ourselves in the arse.
 
Re: ObamaRama 8

No chit. Looks like business doesn't want to get rid of this little piece of corporate welfare. I would assume this means that they get much more benefit writing them off than it costs them to insure their employees. And yet, all we kept hearing was how business would dump their employees off into the public plan.

So you're saying that companies paying for the majority of their employee's health care is bad? You'd rather see the taxpayers picking up the tab? You're about as smart as a lobotomized garden gnome if you think this is the better way to go about things. Listen as hard as you effing can, and you might learn something:

Companies getting tax deductions for paying for employee health benefits = no cost to taxpayers.
Employees on the public option = cost to taxpayers.

Is that so difficult to understand? Or are you really are a complete dolt? You "assume" that businesses get "much more benefit", but you'd be wrong. Have you ever done a tax return? Really?

Isn't this want banks are for? So, why aren't they lending? Cause they have a much better deal taking the 0% loan money the fed is throwing at them and parking that money into treasuries. Gauranteed 3-4% profit, without having to do anything.

Read the effing thread. The money the banks got through TARP was not at 0%. And if you're speaking of the current Fed Funds rate, you still have no idea what you're talking about. Show me one bank that is parking Fed-borrowed money in US Treasuries. You won't find one. There is, and always has been a spread between the Fed Funds rate and treasuries. There's a far better return to lend the money to borrowers at 5-10% than to park it in short-term T-bills.

I just wanted to see what Mr. Knowitall had to offer. Same old corporatist bullchit. You're a regular idiot savant.

How was anything that I offered up even CLOSE to "corporatist"? You still haven't offered a single nugget of anything resembling an idea on how to get the economy moving. Once again, you've proven yourself to be devoid of anything remotely close to an intelligent thought. I'd put you on ignore, but the liberal drivel that oozes from through your gap teeth and down your bottom lip is slightly amusing. Go back to your trailer, b*tch about the Man and have another forty you hack.
 
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Re: ObamaRama 8

What's wrong with them? The median income level in this country, meaning 50% earn more,, and 50% earn less, is somewhere around $46,000, it might be $48,000. But in that ballpark.

These are taxpayers. If 50% of taxpayers pay 96% of the income taxes, then nothing, even getting refunds, changes that fact. They still paid income taxes. They didn't pay as much as they had withheld from their paychecks, and so got refunds.

And since deductions, exemptions etc. are progressive just like the taxes...the refunds impact all taxpayers equally, right?:rolleyes:

C'mon, you know exactly what I'm saying...sure, everybody that works pays taxes, taxes net of refund is a better indication of the true impact of taxes. It isn't only people withholding more than necessary, and I'm pretty sure you know that already.

edit: Shot - took me a while to get that in, I'm 'working' this week. I didn't notice the deletion.
 
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Re: ObamaRama 8

Read the effing thread. The money the banks got through TARP was not at 0%. And if you're speaking of the current Fed Funds rate, you still have no idea what you're talking about. Show me one bank that is parking Fed-borrowed money in US Treasuries. You won't find one.


There are many banks buying treasuries. The simpliest way to stop this is to raise the federal funds rate. Another way to encourage lending and boost the economy would be to lower taxes. Lower taxes would lead to higher net margins for small businesses making them a less risky investment.
 
Re: ObamaRama 8

There are many banks buying treasuries. The simpliest way to stop this is to raise the federal funds rate. Another way to encourage lending and boost the economy would be to lower taxes. Lower taxes would lead to higher net margins for small businesses making them a less risky investment.

Silly rabbit, the only people that benefit from tax cuts are the rich and they only use that found money to light $1,000 cigars and re-furb their private jets. They all own private jets you know.

We're all better off if we all give more money to the government; as long as 'the rich' are giving more than you why should you care how much you have to give or how much of it they waste? Just blindly donate it with the comfort that somebody else gave more so you must be "gettin' a deal".
 
Re: ObamaRama 8

So you're saying that companies paying for the majority of their employee's health care is bad?

Never claimed anything of the sort. But that was one of the arguments from 'you guys' against the public option, that businesses would dump all their employees onto it instead of paying for their health insurance themselves. And yeah, businesses must get a more substantail benefit in being allowed to deduct that cost than it costs them to insure their employees, or else they wouldn't do it. Simple enough to understand.


Read the effing thread. The money the banks got through TARP was not at 0%. And if you're speaking of the current Fed Funds rate, you still have no idea what you're talking about. Show me one bank that is parking Fed-borrowed money in US Treasuries. You won't find one. There is, and always has been a spread between the Fed Funds rate and treasuries. There's a far better return to lend the money to borrowers at 5-10% than to park it in short-term T-bills.

Wasn't talking about TARP, I believe I even explicitly said 'The Fed'. And yeah, tons of banks right now are parking these interest free loans into government treasuries. They certainly aren't lending it out, or hadn't you noticed?



How was anything that I offered up even CLOSE to "corporatist"? You still haven't offered a single nugget of anything resembling an idea on how to get the economy moving. Once again, you've proven yourself to be devoid of anything remotely close to an intelligent thought. I'd put you on ignore, but the liberal drivel that oozes from through your gap teeth and down your bottom lip is slightly amusing. Go back to your trailer, b*tch about the Man and have another forty you hack.

Here's what I'd do for starters, boy genius. Invest in a works program. Spend the money fixing all those bridges, and water systems that are crumbling apart at the seams. Upgrade the electrical grid, put more into mass transit and alternative energy. Fix up old rundown inner city apartments buildings. Put people to work actuaslly making stuff that can benefit this country, instead of just pushing paper back and forth.
 
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Re: ObamaRama 8

Rufus

My health insurance costs $8,100 / yr. My employer pays 2/3 or $5,400. If the "fine" imposed by this new bill is less than $5,400, then it is a cost savings to my employer to dump the company plan, save the difference, and put me on the federal plan. It is good business decision, one I'd do in a NY minute.
 
Re: ObamaRama 8

There are many banks buying treasuries. The simpliest way to stop this is to raise the federal funds rate. Another way to encourage lending and boost the economy would be to lower taxes. Lower taxes would lead to higher net margins for small businesses making them a less risky investment.

It says in the article that the banks are buying treasuries with funds from increased deposits as Americans are spending less and "hoarding" their money.

Never claimed anything of the sort. But that was one of the arguments from 'you guys' against the public option, that businesses would dump all their employees onto it instead of paying for their health insurance themselves. And yeah, businesses must get a more substantail benefit in being allowed to deduct that cost than it costs them to insure their employees, or else they wouldn't do it. Simple enough to understand.

So which one is it? Are you arguing for businesses to dump their employees on to a public option? Or would you rather see health care benefits continue to be paid for by employers? You're going back and forth like a drunk driver doing the Roadside Olympics. Businesses don't subsidize their employee's health benefits solely because it carries a tax benefit, they do it to attract employees with the insurance being an added benefit of employment. Congress, in a rare moment of clarity, realized that by making employer contributions to health care insurance tax deductible, more businesses might offer health insurance to their employees--which is good for the employee, the employer, the taxpayer and the economy in general.

Wasn't talking about TARP, I believe I even explicitly said 'The Fed'. And yeah, tons of banks right now are parking these interest free loans into government treasuries. They certainly aren't lending it out, or hadn't you noticed?

Again, you're going back and forth like Favre deciding on retirement. First you donkey punch the banks for loose lending guidelines, and now you're all hacked off that they tightened their borrowing criteria? My Parise, you're dim. Which is it? The illusion that banks are being unreasonable lenders is a result of the contrast between how easy it was to get money for the past decade and how it SHOULD be. Also: Banks aren't parking Fed money in Treasuries, they're using depositor funds for that purpose.

From Bloomberg:

Bank holdings of U.S. government securities are up 15.6 percent from a year ago, almost double the average annual growth rate of about 8 percent since the Federal Reserve began tracking the data in 1973, according to the Greenwich, Connecticut-based trading and research firm MKM Partners LP. Purchases may accelerate as lenders look for places to park rising deposits as sales of federal agency debt of companies such as Fannie Mae and corporate bonds slow.

Here's what I'd do for starters, boy genius. Invest in a works program. Spend the money fixing all those bridges, and water systems that are crumbling apart at the seams. Upgrade the electrical grid, put more into mass transit and alternative energy. Fix up old rundown inner city apartments buildings. Put people to work actuaslly making stuff that can benefit this country, instead of just pushing paper back and forth.

Uh, they already did everything you just said with the '09 Stimulus, aside from fixing up inner city apartments.....and that is probably in there as well. And we can see where that has gotten us. A sh*tload of fraud, "millions" of "saved" jobs (which does nothing for the thousands of workers losing their jobs every week), raises for existing workers (what?!?), few-to-no new jobs and another proposed Stimulus package coming up the pipe because the first one didn't work. Additionally, mass transit doens't work everywhere. The light rail in Mpls is running deep in the red, and America's stab at a Eurorail (Amtrak) is a joke.

More government workers aren't the solution. It didn't work during the Great Depression--it took WWII to actually pull us out of that economic crisis--and it won't work now. Public-sector jobs don't contribute to the tax base, they take away from it. In order to get the deficit under control and the economy/employment back on track, the government needs to drastically cut spending and find a way to create private sector jobs. And if there is a need to create a works program, those who are able-bodied and on welfare should be the first hired. That would start to reduce the cost of social welfare on the federal government, and more importantly the STATE governments. Of course, that will never happen because the government unions would go ape****bananas over non-union folk "takin' der jobs".
 
Re: ObamaRama 8

Silly rabbit, the only people that benefit from tax cuts are the rich and they only use that found money to light $1,000 cigars and re-furb their private jets. They all own private jets you know.

We're all better off if we all give more money to the government; as long as 'the rich' are giving more than you why should you care how much you have to give or how much of it they waste? Just blindly donate it with the comfort that somebody else gave more so you must be "gettin' a deal".

The Government already spends more than it has and yet everyone wants to cut taxes even though that wont stop them from spending the money they still dont have? Yeah about that...

A tax cut is going to do nothing until the banks start lending...well that isnt true it will inflate the debt more but that is ok no one pretends to give a crap about that anymore. Tax cuts make the average citizen feel better so it is worth votes...LETS DO IT!

I love this country...everyone wants everything, doesn't want to pay for it then gets mad when the country is on the verge of bankruptcy. The "Conservatives" spend, the "Liberals" spend and everyone loses! Its like the country is in college and those credit companies are walking around the campus signing everyone up for high interest credit cards...who cares about the now when we can put it off until later!

BTW pirate I just used your post as a jumping off point, not cause I was arguing with you :) The problems with this country can't be solved by any one solution whether it be tax cuts, change in interest rates, public works projects or health care reform. The chickens of the last 20 years or so are coming home to roost and it is time to pay the piper. The fact that no one seems willing to do that (on both sides of the aisle) is really bugging me.
 
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Re: ObamaRama 8

ok, its New Years, so I would rant real long.

this country is an economic juggernaut. always has been. we just have to let it run. cut spending, lower taxes and let this baby go. hold on. we are the most creative, productive economy the world has ever seen!

Happy News Years from the greatest country in the world!!!
 
Re: ObamaRama 8

Good idea. They can start with Iraq and Afghanistan where there is no return on investment. Once that's done then they can start in here.

One could argue that the increased stability of Iraq (and hopefully Afghanistan) keeps oil prices from being higher than they could be. Not that this would be an acceptable reason to have our troops in harm's way, because it's not.

Here's my take on what to do about our current situation:

Public-sector job outsourcing and/or wage reductions would be another place that could/should be looked at in my opinion. The government was never intended to be a major employer, but if you looked at the majority of cities/counties/states, you'd find that they are the largest (or one of the largest) employers. Furthermore, the unions that have gained control of these employees continue to look at government as a bottomless wallet. Obviously, we need our basic services--police, fire, limited public works--but there needs to be a limit on what is considered "core public services". The guy that mows the grass in the neighborhood park doesn't need to be making $45,000/year. The mechanic at the municipal golf course isn't worth $65,000/year......hell, the city/county shouldn't even be IN the golf course operations industry in the first place, let alone paying union wages to run the operation. The private sector is nearly always more efficient--which is a benefit to the taxpayer--and creates the competition necessary to keep the spending of tax money at a minimum.

I also believe that more targeted military spending should be enacted. The military, like every other government agency, is wrought with waste and fraud--especially when it comes to military contracts and contractors. This is an area where we have the ability to cut costs and improve the efficiency of the world's greatest military. We need to continue to draw down our troop numbers in a safe and responsible manner while pressuring our allies to contribute to the security of the Middle East.

And again, putting able-bodied welfare recipients to work in menial labor capacities would result in greater employability for the recipient and a better ROI for the state/federal gov't. We should be getting SOMETHING for the free money we're currently hemmoraging. SSDI, Medicare, Medicaid, Section 8 and other social welfare programs need to be completely overhauled and more scrutiny brought upon the situations of those who recieve the benefits.

Finally, I am in favor of doing away with the current system of localized taxes benefitting individual public school systems. The only way to make things fair would be to ensure that each school district is funded in a proportionally-fair manner. This would do away with any inequities in quality of education and would level the playing field for students going out in to the world, be it college, tech school or into the workplace. This would also eliminate the need for the biased institutions of affirmative action and quota-based policies, most notably in the workplace and in the university admissions process. Education itself also needs to be supplemented by more real-world education: how to interview for a job, how a credit rating works/why it is important, fiscal responsibility/planning/budgeting, etc.

However, the most important thing that needs to begin being taught in our schools--and by parents as well--is personal accountability and responsibility. Our current mindset is one of being a victim and blaming others for our own failures and shortcomings. Until we start taking responsibility for our actions and being held accountable for the consequences, our country will continue a slide towards mediocrity, and eventual ruin.
 
Re: ObamaRama 8

The Government already spends more than it has and yet everyone wants to cut taxes even though that wont stop them from spending the money they still dont have? Yeah about that...

A tax cut is going to do nothing until the banks start lending...well that isnt true it will inflate the debt more but that is ok no one pretends to give a crap about that anymore. Tax cuts make the average citizen feel better so it is worth votes...LETS DO IT!

I love this country...everyone wants everything, doesn't want to pay for it then gets mad when the country is on the verge of bankruptcy. The "Conservatives" spend, the "Liberals" spend and everyone loses! Its like the country is in college and those credit companies are walking around the campus signing everyone up for high interest credit cards...who cares about the now when we can put it off until later!

BTW pirate I just used your post as a jumping off point, not cause I was arguing with you :) The problems with this country can't be solved by any one solution whether it be tax cuts, change in interest rates, public works projects or health care reform. The chickens of the last 20 years or so are coming home to roost and it is time to pay the piper. The fact that no one seems willing to do that (on both sides of the aisle) is really bugging me.

NP.

I enjoy the discussion and have no issue with constructive disagreements. There is no way we can all have the same views or proposed solutions...I try my best to understand the alternative viewpoint. As has been pointed out many times, the solutions to these issues are complex and we aren't really going to solve them on this board...but if I can learn something and once in a while make a contribution to a lively debate...that works for me.

We all have our moments, I know I've had mine, the only times it really becomes useless is when people close their minds and refuse to consider other people's opinions. (did somebody cue the violins as I typed that?)

BUT...You are wrong!!!!!!:)

I don't think the average citizen is for tax cuts, the average citizen has been convinced that only the rich benefit so they are fine with no tax cuts or are actually for tax increases (as long as it is on somebody else).

So, in my opinion, the average person doesn't put enough pressure on their elected officials to reduce the waste...I love when the pols turn it to 'reducing programs'... as if the only way to reduce government spending is to cut your medicare, education or other benefits. I don't believe that. I think they have convinced people of that...that reduced taxes means children starving or old people freezing to death.

I would 'guess' that if they just cut the obvious pork projects they could save more than a modest tax cut would reduce revenues - and I do believe that a dollar given back to somebody (anybody) would do more to stimulate the economy than the government spending it on useless bridges etc.

Murray Blum for President!!
 
Re: ObamaRama 8

I am all for redoing the tax system. Fair tax. The more you spend, the more you pay. Since those that have the most, spend the most, they pay the most.

OTOH, if you told everybody that they take their current tax bill and knock 10% off of it, I think most people will be estatic. So Bill Gates gets $1 million knocked off and I get $4K. OK by me -- Bill is a lot more successful than me - plus he pays a lot more than me in taxes.

In any scheme that potentially cuts revenue, you need fiscal discipline (!) on the expense side. That means Congress and the legislatures need to cut their desire to spend, spend, spend.
 
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