Obama XV: Now, with 20% more rage

[MinnFan]

Re: Obama XV: Now, with 20% more rage

Gov't revise growth estimates down to 1% and future estimates remain flat

which should lead everyone (if they haven't already figured it out) to this


The death of Keynesian Economics

- Let us finally be rid of this folly forever

 

[solovsfett]

Re: Obama XV: Now, with 20% more rage

That we were headed seriously downhill before anyone even voted for him? Regardless of his failures, he didn't start this shi*storm and I'm not convinced "the other team" would have done much better. That's not to say he's not earned legitimate criticisms of the position he's in, but dear Parise a bit of perspective is in order.

ok, let's talk about that. Who brought on the housing crisis that has brought us to the brink twice or more of financial collapse?

that would be the people who's ideology told them "everyone" NEEDS a home. regardless of income. I was an auditor in the real estate business for 8 years. trust me I saw into the thousands of docs where people were buying homes 3x above what their income level could allow and don't tell me banks weren't being pushed and prodded to give these loans. I'm looking at you mr. frank, mr. dodd.


Now, I'm not saying the "other team" would have guided us better because it depends on who we're talking about. McCain? no chance. really a fiscal conservative would do it though. A Paul Ryan, a Chris Christie (though he's stepped into it on the mosque thing), a Romney (fiscally only).

It's time for people on the left to understand Obama deserves pretty serious criticism now and not solely because of his ideology (if you're right of center like me), but on actual performance.

He's on vacation while the economy is melting down. just like he was in the state senate in illinois. voting present perpetually.

 

[solovsfett]

Re: Obama XV: Now, with 20% more rage

The funniest part is that the intuition:fact ratio on that original post was about 6:1. Charitably.

well post your foundation behind your assertion above. did the unemployment rate rise above 6% under Bush?

did his deficit rise to even 1/4 of Obama's ever?

adinfinitum

 

[Handyman]

Re: Obama XV: Now, with 20% more rage

You do realize that plenty of people on the left rip Obama...hell most everyone that is a full on liberal thinks he is a sellout. Just because the left media ignores it doesnt mean it isnt happening I see it everyday.

Lets not forget the Right never criticized Dubya until the end of his second term when all of a sudden they distanced themselves from him. You never crossed the Rove Machine. Fox was lock step with him as well until 08 when they realized every Republican was going to bail on him.

It is laughable though how a few of you act like Liberals are taking down the country though and ignore how much the conservatives did to destroy us and are contributing to the current destruction. It is funny how both sides deflect blame so easily and people on both sides (as evidenced in all of these threads) will just buy it like it is gospel.

You want to know who is responsible...all of us. We voted for these guys, we eat up the rhetoric and the propaganda and spout the bs (myself included in all of this) and then stick our head in the sand. We worry more about the letter behind the name and not the actions of said name. We talk about how corrupt every politician is but we never actually vote any of them out of office. We talk about personal responsibility but then take almost none. We rail against spending but applaud spending we like. And the sad thing is, none of this is new, this is the same type of political hackery we have seen since the beginning.

I mean things are so bad that the GOP voted AGAINST a bill to give health care to first responders at the WTC because the Dems supported it. (hiding behind the bs argument of a tax to pay for it and the Dems would have done the same thing) There should be no question, this should have passed uncontested but the vitriol levels are at such extremes that all that matters is arguing, not what is actually best for the country.

 

[Kepler]

Re: Obama XV: Now, with 20% more rage

We voted for these guys, we eat up the rhetoric and the propaganda and spout the bs (myself included in all of this) and then stick our head in the sand. We worry more about the letter behind the name and not the actions of said name. We talk about how corrupt every politician is but we never actually vote any of them out of office. We talk about personal responsibility but then take almost none. We rail against spending but applaud spending we like. And the sad thing is, none of this is new, this is the same type of political hackery we have seen since the beginning.

Well said. Depressing as hell, but well said.

But, looking forward, what are our options?

Party affiliation isn't arbitrary. It reflects the reality that 9 times out of 10 we think that "our" side is talking our language and proposing at least our direction for the country, if not our specific policies. The Dems could lose me, they have in the past, but I can't imagine backing Republicanism in its current form: on almost every issue of substance, they're utterly repellent to what I see is best in our country. I suspect from their rhetoric Republicans feel the same way in reverse.

My point is, "knee-jerk" support is not really knee-jerk, and our realistic choice nearly always come down to supporting one major party or one of a constellation of fringe parties with no chance of winning. A primary is a real choice, but a general election... not so much.

I think this perception is widespread and it explains what really drives elections -- enthusiasm. Although the other party is rarely a viable choice, staying home creates much less dissonance, so we punish our side when it disappoints us by voting in smaller numbers. Incumbents are far more likely to be disappointing (an opposition can promise anything with impunity), so we churn governments.

There are two ways out. One is for both parties to become viable choices for many of us. That would probably just reduce the policy options available to the voters, and anyway the ecology of party politics works just like marketing -- always seeking discriminators, so it won't happen. The other is mixed government so both parties are perceived as being responsible for the status quo, and that may be where we're headed.

 

[ScottM]

Re: Obama XV: Now, with 20% more rage

You want to know who is responsible...all of us. We voted for these guys, we eat up the rhetoric and the propaganda and spout the bs (myself included in all of this) and then stick our head in the sand. We worry more about the letter behind the name and not the actions of said name. We talk about how corrupt every politician is but we never actually vote any of them out of office. We talk about personal responsibility but then take almost none. We rail against spending but applaud spending we like. And the sad thing is, none of this is new, this is the same type of political hackery we have seen since the beginning.

That's the same point I've been trying to make to people I know of any political stripe who biatch and moan about some issue and then sit out the elections. Unfortunately, the major political parties are so concerned about the next election cycle they seem to have lost touch with the people. And "We the People" seem to enable their behavior by voting the same gang of idiots in, again and again.

 

[ScoobyDoo]

Re: Obama XV: Now, with 20% more rage

You do realize that plenty of people on the left rip Obama...hell most everyone that is a full on liberal thinks he is a sellout. Just because the left media ignores it doesnt mean it isnt happening I see it everyday.

Lets not forget the Right never criticized Dubya until the end of his second term when all of a sudden they distanced themselves from him. You never crossed the Rove Machine. Fox was lock step with him as well until 08 when they realized every Republican was going to bail on him.
.

Correct on all counts. I didn't vote for Dubya or Obama. Doesn't give me clearance but it does mean I did all that I could. As for voting for I did vote for my Senators and I have no problem with either of them. Many don't like Franken but he works hard on the issues and he stays off the TV unlike a lot of those guys who can't wait to run to Fix News or MSNBC.

 

[ExileOnDaytonStreet]

Re: Obama XV: Now, with 20% more rage

You do realize that plenty of people on the left rip Obama...hell most everyone that is a full on liberal thinks he is a sellout. Just because the left media ignores it doesnt mean it isnt happening I see it everyday.

Shoot, even on this board, how many of the self-professed liberals are calling him a massive disappointment? *Raises hand*

Even the health care bill: honestly, the only liberals out there that I've noticed that feel like its anything but a disaster are either politicians, idiots in the media and Rover. Every other lefty that I've noticed pretty much checked out the moment we realized it wasn't going to be health care reform, but instead would be a health insurer's wet dream.

But, even with that in mind, Lord knows that won't stop your average right winger (including solovsfett, evidently, who I've never thought was very far out in right field), from claiming that Obama is murdering our country and sodomizing the Statue of Liberty while liberals sit around and applaud.

Sometimes, people need to take a chill pill, relax, and realize that we're getting screwed from both sides, and as far as I can tell in history books, it's rarely been any different going back to at least the Kennedy administration.

EDIT: And that health care bill for the first responders was inspiration for a great Daily Show segment called "I Give Up".

 

[5mn_Major]

Re: Obama XV: Now, with 20% more rage

Incidentally, seeing something about credit for getting out of Iraq, it reminded me of something else. With regards to the "war on terror," Iraq, and military tribunals, by in large, he's carried on with the same policies as Bush. There have been a few changes, but on the whole, he's largely kept to the same policies. Heck, Bush even set the Iraq timetable a couple years back to get out right about now.

Obama hasn't done everything he could...if he had, there wouldn't be complaining on the left. But what your saying isn't really entirely true.

Bush didn't have a exit deadline for Iraq until Obama flew to Iraq and agreed on one with the Iraqis. http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/11/17/AR2008111703097.html

There aren't necessarily love letters being sent over the pond, but there is no word of rancor with Europe the way there was under Bush (and that even includes Russia).

There's been plenty of complaining on the right that Obama has put out the olive branch towards the Muslim world, including a significant speech in Egypt.

The war on terror continues...but there isn't the constant verbage about 'how we desperately need to rescue freedom from terrorism' and there is no movement of the terror level every week.

And importantly there isn't the horrible enemy of the month club...switching from Iraq to Libya to No Korea to Russia to Iran.

No, moderates have a lot to be happy with in Obama's foriegn policy.

 

[MinnFan]

Re: Obama XV: Now, with 20% more rage

It is laughable though how a few of you act like Liberals are taking down the country though and ignore how much the conservatives did to destroy us and are contributing to the current destruction. It is funny how both sides deflect blame so easily and people on both sides (as evidenced in all of these threads) will just buy it like it is gospel.

I would argue that Bush was a liberal too. He just wanted a different kind of big gov't. I say lets try a true conservative (libertarian leaning) next time around.

 

[busterman62]

Re: Obama XV: Now, with 20% more rage

Even the health care bill: honestly, the only liberals out there that I've noticed that feel like its anything but a disaster are either politicians, idiots in the media and Rover.

I initially read this as

Even the health care bill: honestly, the only liberals out there that I've noticed that feel like its anything but a disaster are either politicians, idiots, the media and Rover.

and thought you were being overly redundant.

 

[Kepler]

Re: Obama XV: Now, with 20% more rage

Sometimes, people need to take a chill pill, relax, and realize that we're getting screwed from both sides, and as far as I can tell in history books, it's rarely been any different going back to at least the Washington administration.

FYP.

 

[ExileOnDaytonStreet]

Re: Obama XV: Now, with 20% more rage

I would argue that Bush was a liberal too. He just wanted a different kind of big gov't. I say lets try a true conservative (libertarian leaning) next time around.

The problem: where would we find it?

We need more Libertarians on the right and more _________ on the left*, but neither of them will ever make any headway in the Republican or Democratic parties.

* I'm not sure what the appropriate term would be here. What I'm going for is "someone who's liberal, doesn't mind taxes and federal programs but isn't just spoonfeeding them, doesn't overdo it by 10000% like the Democrats do and is willing to reign it in when it gets out of hand". You know... a liberal that knows how to balance a freaking checkbook? Is it sad that the closest we've gotten to that have have been Clinton and JFK? I mean, there are complaints to be made about both of them, but at least one of them could bring some sort of balance to the budget.

 

[Shirtless Guy]

Re: Obama XV: Now, with 20% more rage

The reason we don't have more libertarians and fiscally responsible liberals is because there is no power for politicians that don't spend. Spending on pork and programs is what keeps their coffers full and allows them to stay in Washington. It's a slippery slope that we started sliding down a long time ago. I still think the best message any of us could send is having the congress **** near split down the middle and vote against every incumbent for a decade to show the status quo isn't working.

 

[Kepler]

Re: Obama XV: Now, with 20% more rage

The problem: where would we find it?

We need more Libertarians on the right and more _________ on the left*, but neither of them will ever make any headway in the Republican or Democratic parties.

* I'm not sure what the appropriate term would be here. What I'm going for is "someone who's liberal, doesn't mind taxes and federal programs but isn't just spoonfeeding them, doesn't overdo it by 10000% like the Democrats do and is willing to reign it in when it gets out of hand". You know... a liberal that knows how to balance a freaking checkbook?

What used to be called "Cold War liberals" or "hard-headed liberals." There are still plenty of us around. We basically want 3 things:

(1) Hard-headed liberals want EVERYTHING to be means-tested. But instead, what should be insurance and charity, with payouts restricted to the poor, are sold to us as entitlements, which create burdensome future commitments whenever population growth slows.

(2) We want DRAMATICALLY progressive taxation. As in, 1950's rate structures. Instead, the wealthy have managed to bribe 50% or more off the higher marginal rates, cut deeply into revenue, and contribute to huge deficits.

(3) We want a strong defense but NOT a merchant empire. There used to be balanced internal tensions concerning military spending within both parties: Cold War liberals vs pacifists among the Dems, militarists vs isolationists in the GOP. Ever since the balance was lost, the parties have fallen all over themselves to prove they are more "pro-soldier," which ironically translates into who puts more soldiers at risk in defense (or expansion) of an incredibly costly global empire.

Both Reagan and Clinton were able to martial enough HHL support to not only win but carry very high popularity through two successful terms. Nobody else has come close, but we're still out here, waiting...

And here's the thing. None of those three tenets above is opposed to what the social conservative base of the GOP wants. This is not an intractable problem, and we could have a massive political realignment, if someone could articulate it well enough to survive the ****storm of fear-mongering and corporate opposition it would provoke.

 

[Bob Gray]

Re: Obama XV: Now, with 20% more rage

The reason we don't have more libertarians and fiscally responsible liberals is because there is no power for politicians that don't spend. Spending on pork and programs is what keeps their coffers full and allows them to stay in Washington. It's a slippery slope that we started sliding down a long time ago. I still think the best message any of us could send is having the congress **** near split down the middle and vote against every incumbent for a decade to show the status quo isn't working.

This. But at the end of the day too many people are hooked on the gimmies and in the end don't care what it does to the country long term. That's harsh, but I just don't think people are generally that stupid that they don't realize what we are doing to our country.

 

[Kepler]

Re: Obama XV: Now, with 20% more rage

This. But at the end of the day too many people are hooked on the gimmies and in the end don't care what it does to the country long term. That's harsh, but I just don't think people are generally that stupid that they don't realize what we are doing to our country.

Your spending is gimmies. My spending is fundamental national interests.

 

[Bob Gray]

Re: Obama XV: Now, with 20% more rage

Your spending is gimmies. My spending is fundamental national interests.

You'd be surprised what I'd be willing to cut. But, you are speaking the common perception out there, which is often true.

 

[ScottM]

Re: Obama XV: Now, with 20% more rage

You'd be surprised what I'd be willing to cut. But, you are speaking the common perception out there, which is often true.

I had a similar discussion with my neighbor regarding the pending expiration of the Bush tax cuts. We both agreed that we would not mind taking the additional tax hit, provided it went to debt/deficit reduction rather than more govt spending. We also agreed that would probably not happen anytime soon, and Greece's recent experience would not be a stretch for the US once the "bond vigilantes" saddle up.

 

[Bob Gray]

Re: Obama XV: Now, with 20% more rage

Yah, the problem is some people just don't care and want all the pork that is ladled their way. Then there are the people who care and would be willing to pay some additional taxes and fees if it actually went to making our nation at least somewhat fiscally solvent long term. But they know that with the powers that be and the number of folks that just link up for the pork, that it won't happen. So then they figure in that case they don't want to give the feds more money, so they want to keep the tax cuts or avoid other increases. It's a deadly cesspool of self-interest and fatalism.