What's new
USCHO Fan Forum

This is a sample guest message. Register a free account today to become a member! Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members through your own private inbox!

  • The USCHO Fan Forum has migrated to a new plaform, xenForo. Most of the function of the forum should work in familiar ways. Please note that you can switch between light and dark modes by clicking on the gear icon in the upper right of the main menu bar. We are hoping that this new platform will prove to be faster and more reliable. Please feel free to explore its features.

Obama XV: Now, with 20% more rage

Status
Not open for further replies.
Re: Obama XV: Now, with 20% more rage

If I needed unemployment benefits I wouldn't be using the $ to buy anything more than the necessities. I'd live like Thoreau if I depended on unemployment for any length of time.

if you expect people who are jobless to run and spend unemployment checks on things other than necessities I'm not sure if you want to encourage dependency of if you think people spend unemployment (and not doubt some do) like high school kids spend their part-time $. to expect people to do this is I'd argue tacitly encouraging failure.

Necessity is an elastic concept. With extra income, I expect people to buy some of the necessities that they forgo without that income, sure.

As with any kind of insurance, there's always an element of moral hazard. By itself, that isn't an argument against it.
 
Re: Obama XV: Now, with 20% more rage

If I needed unemployment benefits I wouldn't be using the $ to buy anything more than the necessities. I'd live like Thoreau if I depended on unemployment for any length of time.

if you expect people who are jobless to run and spend unemployment checks on things other than necessities I'm not sure if you want to encourage dependency of if you think people spend unemployment (and not doubt some do) like high school kids spend their part-time $. to expect people to do this is I'd argue tacitly encouraging failure.

Necessity is an elastic concept. With extra income, I expect people to buy some of the necessities that they forgo without that income, sure.

As with any kind of insurance, there's always an element of moral hazard. By itself, that isn't an argument against it.
 
Re: Obama XV: Now, with 20% more rage

Sorry but a $1T is a big deal, this was today's money spent. When we get to some of the future spending, the money isn't going to be there and nobody is going to lend it.

I say again - compare it to some of the other things we are spending money on. You'll find it's not our #1 ticket item per year.

In my opinion it really isn't going to matter our future financial commitments are. When there is no money and no lenders, the programs are going to be forced to be reduced.

Thank you for backing up my point.
 
Re: Obama XV: Now, with 20% more rage

I say again - compare it to some of the other things we are spending money on. You'll find it's not our #1 ticket item per year.

Aren't the big ticket items entitlements? And don't the entitlements at least have taxes directly assigned to them?

I've said this before. I'm fine with the wars if the government is honest about them and taxes us for them directly. Then I get an honest voice on who I vote for based on their support of the war and my money. People get fooled when the wars aren't a line item on their taxes. People see every week that they're paying for Medicare/Medicaid and Social Security cause it's right on their pay stub. They don't see the line item for Iraq and Afghanistan.

The wars have been the big bump in expense in the discretionary spending area. There is no question about that.
 
Re: Obama XV: Now, with 20% more rage

its funny that the people who argue most for extending bush tax cuts say that putting money in people's hands will spur the economy the most.. but then those same people turn around and object to extended unemployment benefits which would do the same thing. hypocrisy or stupid?

they make the argument that extending unemployment benefits hasnt been paid for through other spending cuts elsewhere... but then turn around and overlook that renewing bush tax cuts isnt offset by spending cuts either. again hypocrisy or stupid?

i lean toward hypocrisy. but the stupid jokers on here make it hard to tell.

For starters you are assuming its all the government's money to begin with. Extending the tax cuts is letting people keep their own money. It doesn't cost the gov't anything.

Extending unemployment is additional spending that will have to be paid for by borrowing more money and then eventually paying for it with additional taxes. At this point its no longer actual unemployment insurance as those funds have been exhausted.

These really are two completely different things.
 
Re: Obama XV: Now, with 20% more rage

For starters you are assuming its all the government's money to begin with. Extending the tax cuts is letting people keep their own money. It doesn't cost the gov't anything.

Always like GOP platitudes. I'll ask: isn't it the people's debt too? Especially if we're borrowing money to pay for said upper income tax cuts?
 
Re: Obama XV: Now, with 20% more rage

woooosh! lol.

Don't feed the trolls.

I get that the Laffer Curve is difficult to understand - I tried to explain it to a woman I encountered at a political rally the other day, and she seemed very intelligent, but she didn't get the concept of being in a position where lowering taxes increases revenue and raising taxes decreases revenue. It's OK, I get it because it's kind of counter-intuitive, but the numbers don't lie.
 
Re: Obama XV: Now, with 20% more rage

Don't feed the trolls.

I get that the Laffer Curve is difficult to understand - I tried to explain it to a woman I encountered at a political rally the other day, and she seemed very intelligent, but she didn't get the concept of being in a position where lowering taxes increases revenue and raising taxes decreases revenue. It's OK, I get it because it's kind of counter-intuitive, but the numbers don't lie.

Did you also explain to her that the curve works in both directions? It's easier to understand then. By your explanation above you didn't explain that part.
 
Re: Obama XV: Now, with 20% more rage

Well, anybody who thinks top level tax cuts pay for themselves really is too stupid to have the right to vote. As this has been disproven constantly, you have to wonder why people cling to it. Then again, knuckledraggers have never been known for their knowledge of fiscal issues (see Reagan and Bush deficits) so we shouldn't be surprised. Really, the only hope for people like this is education frankly. :D
 
Re: Obama XV: Now, with 20% more rage

Always like GOP platitudes. I'll ask: isn't it the people's debt too? Especially if we're borrowing money to pay for said upper income tax cuts?

nice spin. it's the people's debt because government gives us no choice when they run and vote for large expenditures without the consent of the governed (see Healthcare overhaul, see Iraq war)

however paying for tax cuts is a fabrication. the reason being tax cuts end up bringing in more money to the government coffers.
 
Re: Obama XV: Now, with 20% more rage

however paying for tax cuts is a fabrication. the reason being tax cuts end up bringing in more money to the government coffers.

{sigh}

The curve has two sides. If what you said were true they'd cut all our taxes down to 1% and the government would have so much money it wouldn't know what to do with itself. :rolleyes:
 
Re: Obama XV: Now, with 20% more rage

however paying for tax cuts is a fabrication. the reason being tax cuts end up bringing in more money to the government coffers.

You can keep repeating this all you want, but it doesn't make it true. Bush's tax cuts certainly did not increase revenue.

As Scooby noted, the Laffer curve works in two directions.
 
Re: Obama XV: Now, with 20% more rage

You can keep repeating this all you want, but it doesn't make it true. Bush's tax cuts certainly did not increase revenue.

As Scooby noted, the Laffer curve works in two directions.

Revenue actually increased after the Bush Tax cuts

However, that isn't the reason to continue them. The Laffer Curve is just a side benefit to cutting taxes. Actually, if you lower taxes and revenue goes up you haven't lowered taxes enough.

The reason to keep taxes low is economic and individual freedom. The more people are allowed to keep of their own money the more investment can be made into the economy resulting in greater growth.
 
Re: Obama XV: Now, with 20% more rage

nice spin. it's the people's debt because government gives us no choice when they run and vote for large expenditures without the consent of the governed (see Healthcare overhaul, see Iraq war)

however paying for tax cuts is a fabrication. the reason being tax cuts end up bringing in more money to the government coffers.

Umm...no they don't. For tax cuts to even have the possibility of paying for themselves, all extra money kept by citizens from them would have to be invested within the US. Even if the US was growing faster than the rest of the world, this still would be impossible as for portfolio diversity's sake investors would still park some money overseas.

Now, where top earner tax cuts devolve into fiscal stupidity is when a rival country is achieving far better growth than the US, and people park their money there to benefit from that (which is frankly what they should be doing). The main beneficiary of Reagan era tax cuts was Japan. Meanwhile the US deficit ballooned. During Clinton's era, tax rates on the upper bracket went up and...the economy skyrocketed and the deficit was eliminated. Bush II came up, cut upper income taxes and the beneficiary was/still is China as the US can't compete with their state planned economy and illegal exchange rate manipulation. Oh, and in case you haven't noticed, the deficit ballooned once again. You've got to be a real believer in coincidences not to see a trend here.
 
Re: Obama XV: Now, with 20% more rage

On a personal level, I worked as a caddy at a country club until 2004. I can attest to the fact that Bush II's tax cuts paid for a lot of foreign cars in country club parking lots.
 
Re: Obama XV: Now, with 20% more rage

Revenue actually increased after the Bush Tax cuts

However, that isn't the reason to continue them. The Laffer Curve is just a side benefit to cutting taxes. Actually, if you lower taxes and revenue goes up you haven't lowered taxes enough.

The reason to keep taxes low is economic and individual freedom. The more people are allowed to keep of their own money the more investment can be made into the economy resulting in greater growth.

Uh, no. Says the CBO, the Committee for a Responsible Federal Budget, and that leftist economist Greg Mankiw:

http://voices.washingtonpost.com/ezra-klein/2010/07/mcconnell_no_evidence_whatsoev.html

There's an ontological question here about what, exactly, McConnell considers to be "evidence." But how about the Congressional Budget Office's estimations? "The new CBO data show that changes in law enacted since January 2001 increased the deficit by $539 billion in 2005. In the absence of such legislation, the nation would have a surplus this year. Tax cuts account for almost half — 48 percent — of this $539 billion in increased costs." How about the Committee for a Responsible Federal Budget? Their budget calculator shows that the tax cuts will cost $3.28 trillion between 2011 and 2018. How about George W. Bush's CEA chair, Greg Mankiw, who used the term "charlatans and cranks" for people who believed that "broad-based income tax cuts would have such large supply-side effects that the tax cuts would raise tax revenue." He continued: "I did not find such a claim credible, based on the available evidence. I never have, and I still don't."

There is some stimulative affect from tax cuts. They increase economic activity somewhat, and that means there's somewhat more taxable revenue for the government to pick up. But not much. Not nearly enough to cancel out the cost of a tax cut. It's important to remember that the Laffer Curve is actually a curve. You can no more drop taxes to 1 percent and make up the difference in revenue than you could increases taxes to 100 percent and sustain enough economic activity to fund the government. You'll recall that the last time we saw budget surpluses was under Clinton -- and higher taxes.
 
Re: Obama XV: Now, with 20% more rage

Revenue actually increased after the Bush Tax cuts

However, that isn't the reason to continue them. The Laffer Curve is just a side benefit to cutting taxes. Actually, if you lower taxes and revenue goes up you haven't lowered taxes enough.

The reason to keep taxes low is economic and individual freedom. The more people are allowed to keep of their own money the more investment can be made into the economy resulting in greater growth.

Well said. The Laffer Curve does indeed work both ways - when you are on the other side of the curve, raising taxes raises revenue the way one would normally expect.

The problem is, we're not on that side of the curve as evidenced by what MinnFan just said - taxes lowered, revenues increased. There's a happy medium, no one's saying taxes need to be lowered to 5% or something, there comes a point where lowering taxes will decrease revenues. But perhaps, instead of playing the class warfare card and whining about how the rich aren't paying their fair share (hint: they never are if you ask a lib), the government ought to look, like a business would, at how best to maximize revenues. In theory, that's what would happen when you get tax rates to the very top of the curve.
 
Re: Obama XV: Now, with 20% more rage

blockski, what's your problem? Don't you know that the CBO can't be trusted whenever they throw cold water on a neo-con idea and that Mankiw coverted to communism right after the Bush admin ended. :D ;)

BTW - explaining fiscal policy to Red Cloud would be like explaining calculus to your cat. Maybe it seems like he's getting it at first but after awhile you realize he's only staring at you with a glazed over look in the hopes that he gets a handout afterwards and he didn't understand a word you said. :cool:
 
Re: Obama XV: Now, with 20% more rage

The problem is, we're not on that side of the curve as evidenced by what MinnFan just said - taxes lowered, revenues increased.
'

Under Clinton revenues went up and taxes were higher than they were the previous administration (Bush I) and the latter administration (Bush II).

So, what side of the curve are we on?
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top