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Re: Obama XIII: It's all Bush's fault.
The only way that I can see supporting that is if people are allowed to completely opt out of SS before it gets implimented. At least that way the people who are "means tested" out of a benefit are willing participants.
The only way that I can see supporting that is if people are allowed to completely opt out of SS before it gets implimented. At least that way the people who are "means tested" out of a benefit are willing participants.
Re: Obama XIII: It's all Bush's fault.
A difference without a distinction. What I'm getting at is that taxes come out before profit (evil, evil profit) is calculated. Thus, in order to reach acceptable margins when taxes are higher, prices are necessarily higher. A percentage of most of what you purchase goes to pay corporate income tax. The corporation is simply the medium through which you, the individual, pay this tax to the government.
A difference without a distinction. What I'm getting at is that taxes come out before profit (evil, evil profit) is calculated. Thus, in order to reach acceptable margins when taxes are higher, prices are necessarily higher. A percentage of most of what you purchase goes to pay corporate income tax. The corporation is simply the medium through which you, the individual, pay this tax to the government.
ScottM
**** it feels good to be a bankster
Re: Obama XIII: It's all Bush's fault.
I have no preference for a national sales tax or a VAT. I think either one offers the individual a basis to control their overall tax liability based on their purchases. I also think either one more accurately reflects the current structure of our economy which is driven by the end-user.
As others have stated, if a national consumption or sales tax were enacted, Congress probably would not reduce individual income tax liabilites and these would only add to the tax burden. And in the end, the individual consumer ultimately pays all taxes since businesses treat them as an expense to be passed on.
I have no preference for a national sales tax or a VAT. I think either one offers the individual a basis to control their overall tax liability based on their purchases. I also think either one more accurately reflects the current structure of our economy which is driven by the end-user.
As others have stated, if a national consumption or sales tax were enacted, Congress probably would not reduce individual income tax liabilites and these would only add to the tax burden. And in the end, the individual consumer ultimately pays all taxes since businesses treat them as an expense to be passed on.
Re: Obama XIII: It's all Bush's fault.
Right - taxes are figured on net income = (revenue - expenses). (Net income - taxes) = profit left over to distribute to the shareholders. Too many people confuse the terms "net income" and "profit."
dropthatpuck
In Vino Veritas
Re: Obama XIII: It's all Bush's fault.
Misinformed. They didn't coin "death and taxes" for nothing. Everybody pays.
...unless, of course, we want to talk about partially subsidized industries like agriculture or NFP's.
Misinformed. They didn't coin "death and taxes" for nothing. Everybody pays.
...unless, of course, we want to talk about partially subsidized industries like agriculture or NFP's.
ScoobyDoo
NPC
Re: Obama XIII: It's all Bush's fault.
Then the system would collapse. It's the same issue with Health Care and why there was so much discussion about "everyone" having to be in the pool. I know you know that. I know you know that as the pool grows larger than the risk is spread out.
And as far as opting out goes, that's great. Then what "safety net" does your society have for the guy who gets disabled in a car accident (single car accident, he was texting and drove off the road himself) and can't work anymore and doesn't have any insurance? He gambled and lost.
What do you do with him?
Then the system would collapse. It's the same issue with Health Care and why there was so much discussion about "everyone" having to be in the pool. I know you know that. I know you know that as the pool grows larger than the risk is spread out.
And as far as opting out goes, that's great. Then what "safety net" does your society have for the guy who gets disabled in a car accident (single car accident, he was texting and drove off the road himself) and can't work anymore and doesn't have any insurance? He gambled and lost.
What do you do with him?
Re: Obama XIII: It's all Bush's fault.
Throw him in the "disabled moron reactor" and convert him into renewable energy. There's an infinite supply of idiots, so we'll never run out of fuel for this reactor.
ScoobyDoo
NPC
Re: Obama XIII: It's all Bush's fault.
That's one answer.
And that's another.
That's one answer.
And that's another.
Re: Obama XIII: It's all Bush's fault.
Here's what the young adults get out of social security:
- a lifetime of high (and likely to increase even more) payroll taxes
- a shorter window of benefits relative to current retirees (those of us under 40 will probably see a retirement age of at least 70)
- possible means testing of benefit payouts, thus denying many of us of benefits altogether despite the enormous sum of money we paid into the system
Here's a thought: if people are too stupid/short-sighted to save for their own retirement, then they don't deserve to retire at all. It's criminal that we have a system that has legalized confiscating a significant sum of money from all workers to subsidize people to go play golf or sit on their *** at casinos playing the slots.
Just get rid of this joke of a system altogether and let me invest my money currently going to payroll taxes how I see fit. Over the course of my career, I could easily kick in over a quarter million to this system. I can all but guarantee I won't see an equal amount coming back to me.
No kidding. 12%+ is a steep price to pay in the name of securing other people's retirements.
Here's what the young adults get out of social security:
- a lifetime of high (and likely to increase even more) payroll taxes
- a shorter window of benefits relative to current retirees (those of us under 40 will probably see a retirement age of at least 70)
- possible means testing of benefit payouts, thus denying many of us of benefits altogether despite the enormous sum of money we paid into the system
Here's a thought: if people are too stupid/short-sighted to save for their own retirement, then they don't deserve to retire at all. It's criminal that we have a system that has legalized confiscating a significant sum of money from all workers to subsidize people to go play golf or sit on their *** at casinos playing the slots.
Just get rid of this joke of a system altogether and let me invest my money currently going to payroll taxes how I see fit. Over the course of my career, I could easily kick in over a quarter million to this system. I can all but guarantee I won't see an equal amount coming back to me.
ScottM
**** it feels good to be a bankster
Re: Obama XIII: It's all Bush's fault.
Any flat tax or consumption tax proposal that I've heard of would replace the current income tax, not be in addition to it.
Re: Obama XIII: It's all Bush's fault.
The supporters of these reform ideas would obviously want them to replace the income tax - however, Congress, as it is currently comprised, would never EVER replace the current tax system with one of those proposals. If anything, the current administration would hit us with a VAT on top of the income tax system.
Re: Obama XIII: It's all Bush's fault.
If you think the retirement version of Social Security is bad, hang out in front of a bank ten minutes before opening on the first of the month and see the throngs of able-bodied people lined up to clean out their Social Security-Disability payment that was direct deposited that day. I would usually see a number of these same people sitting at the bar down the street when I stopped in for an after-work sipper.
I'm not saying that every person on SSDI is able to work.......but here in Duluth, MN I'd say it's about 50-50 on able vs. not able.
Sad part of it is, with the huge number of Selfish Generation/Baby Boomer votes out there, the Gen X/Yers can't possibly institute any changes in the system without starting a generational war.
No kidding. 12%+ is a steep price to pay in the name of securing other people's retirements.
Here's what the young adults get out of social security:
- a lifetime of high (and likely to increase even more) payroll taxes
- a shorter window of benefits relative to current retirees (those of us under 40 will probably see a retirement age of at least 70)
- possible means testing of benefit payouts, thus denying many of us of benefits altogether despite the enormous sum of money we paid into the system
Here's a thought: if people are too stupid/short-sighted to save for their own retirement, then they don't deserve to retire at all. It's criminal that we have a system that has legalized confiscating a significant sum of money from all workers to subsidize people to go play golf or sit on their *** at casinos playing the slots.
Just get rid of this joke of a system altogether and let me invest my money currently going to payroll taxes how I see fit. Over the course of my career, I could easily kick in over a quarter million to this system. I can all but guarantee I won't see an equal amount coming back to me.
If you think the retirement version of Social Security is bad, hang out in front of a bank ten minutes before opening on the first of the month and see the throngs of able-bodied people lined up to clean out their Social Security-Disability payment that was direct deposited that day. I would usually see a number of these same people sitting at the bar down the street when I stopped in for an after-work sipper.
I'm not saying that every person on SSDI is able to work.......but here in Duluth, MN I'd say it's about 50-50 on able vs. not able.
Sad part of it is, with the huge number of Selfish Generation/Baby Boomer votes out there, the Gen X/Yers can't possibly institute any changes in the system without starting a generational war.
XYZ
Smoking in the selection room.
Re: Obama XIII: It's all Bush's fault.
Would we actually be starting the war...or merely finally stepping up to fight in it?
Would we actually be starting the war...or merely finally stepping up to fight in it?
ScoobyDoo
NPC
Re: Obama XIII: It's all Bush's fault.
That appears to be the consensus.
Meanwhile the selfish generation is going to sit on their money and suck the coffers dry.
Wood chipper?
That appears to be the consensus.
Meanwhile the selfish generation is going to sit on their money and suck the coffers dry.
Re: Obama XIII: It's all Bush's fault.
You'd have to borrow the money to cover the difference, but in the long-run you'd wind up saving a lot more than you'd borrow.
Thats what insurance is for. If that person is irresponsible and does not have insurance thats what charity is for. The whole idea of gov't providing a "safety net" is actually a new idea (1960s). Before that people banded together to look after each other. Regardless, we need to be willing to tell irresponsible people that they are not able to stick their hands into our pockets. When that happens it'll be amazing how many fewer irresponsible people we'll have out there.
You'd have to borrow the money to cover the difference, but in the long-run you'd wind up saving a lot more than you'd borrow.
Thats what insurance is for. If that person is irresponsible and does not have insurance thats what charity is for. The whole idea of gov't providing a "safety net" is actually a new idea (1960s). Before that people banded together to look after each other. Regardless, we need to be willing to tell irresponsible people that they are not able to stick their hands into our pockets. When that happens it'll be amazing how many fewer irresponsible people we'll have out there.
ScoobyDoo
NPC
Re: Obama XIII: It's all Bush's fault.
You have more faith in that then I do. We already are considered failures for the way we treat people now. Just imagine what will happen with your plan.
You have more faith in that then I do. We already are considered failures for the way we treat people now. Just imagine what will happen with your plan.
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