Obama XII: The shine is off the glass slipper

[unofan]

In other words, tax the rich more, because we can get more from them. Somehow this is "fair" rather than just taxing everyone equally.

You'd have at least some leg to stand on if the so-called Fairtax was still an income tax, just without any exemptions.

Sales taxes (and their evil cousins, VATs) inherently hurt the poor more than anyone else because they have to spend money just to live. The "Fair"tax is classism at its finest, just better disguised because it seems equal up front but ignores the reality upon its implementation.

You also completely ignored its obviously negative effect on the national economy (at least in the short-medium term), I noticed.

 

[Red Cloud]

Re: Obama XII: The shine is off the glass slipper

Sales taxes (and their evil cousins, VATs) inherently hurt the poor more than anyone else because they have to spend money just to live. The "Fair"tax is classism at its finest, just better disguised because it seems equal up front but ignores the reality upon its implementation.

So in other words, you want to "hurt the rich" too. Is that what I'm gathering here? People need to be hurt, but just make sure it's the right people?

If you think it will "hurt the poor" because they "have to spend money just to live," I think you do not understand the FairTax as well as you think you do.

You also completely ignored its obviously negative effect on the national economy (at least in the short-medium term), I noticed.

Kick down that strawman if you like. Just because I didn't mention it doesn't mean I'm not cognizant of it. But for long term growth and prosperity, I've found little that works better than this.

 

[moe24]

Re: Obama XII: The shine is off the glass slipper

Sales taxes (and their evil cousins, VATs) inherently hurt the poor more than anyone else because they have to spend money just to live. The "Fair"tax is classism at its finest, just better disguised because it seems equal up front but ignores the reality upon its implementation.

I think you need to take a deeper look into what FairTax.org is proposing. While I am not necessarily a proponent of what they propose, you do have to recognize that they do have more tax exemptions on "essentials" then most states do.

 

[Kepler]

Re: Obama XII: The shine is off the glass slipper

Racist thread title.

Kidding.

Or am I?

 

[dxmnkd316]

Re: Obama XII: The shine is off the glass slipper

Racist thread title.

Kidding.

Or am I?

Hahaha, I was thinking the same joke.

 

[unofan]

Re: Obama XII: The shine is off the glass slipper

So in other words, you want to "hurt the rich" too. Is that what I'm gathering here? People need to be hurt, but just make sure it's the right people?

Perfect world? Sure, taxes of 1-2% would be great. They suck, and no one likes paying them. But this isn't a perfect world, and things need to be paid for.

I think it's perfectly fair to tax income rather than consumption.

And I'm fully aware of the "prebates" in the Fair Tax designed to accomodate necessities. All those do is shift the burden from the dirt poor to the nearly poor/middle class.

Also, the 23% figure given (which is actually more like 30% when viewed like traditional sales taxes rather than as a "percentage of the tax inclusive price"), is going to be way too low to pay for the government. But, since you're taxing spending, every increase in the rate leads to a decrease in taxable spending as people will want to spend less (and have to spend less as the proportion of the tax goes up). Not exactly a great feedback loop to increase revenue.

 

[unofan]

Re: Obama XII: The shine is off the glass slipper

Racist thread title.

Kidding.

Or am I?

Oh comeon. I was aiming for a Cinderella / clock strikes 12 pun given the number in the thread. I could've done a witching hour joke, but then I would've been anti-wiccan, right?

 

[Kepler]

Re: Obama XII: The shine is off the glass slipper

But, since you're taxing spending, every increase in the rate leads to a decrease in taxable spending as people will want to spend less (and have to spend less as the proportion of the tax goes up). Not exactly a great feedback loop to increase revenue.

To be fair, isn't that true of any tax structure?

 

[unofan]

Re: Obama XII: The shine is off the glass slipper

To be fair, isn't that true of any tax structure?

Income taxes don't discourage spending per se. They discourage the acquisition of money, but once you have it you can do with it as you please. Yeah, the secondary effect of having less money is not being able to spend as much, but in an individualized, consumer driven economy, taxing income tends to hurt less than taxing spending.

Put it this way, the luxury tax back in the day didn't hurt wealthy people buying yachts and Rolls Royces, it hurt the machinists and dock workers building such items as people stopped buying such items. An increase in the marginal tax rates for income doesn't produce the same effect, even though the tax revenue generated is roughly the same.

 

[ScoobyDoo]

Re: Obama XII: The shine is off the glass slipper

But.........but...............but.............but.........the Fair Tax is so FAIR!!!!

 

[joecct]

Re: Obama XII: The shine is off the glass slipper

Income taxes don't discourage spending per se. They discourage the acquisition of money, but once you have it you can do with it as you please. Yeah, the secondary effect of having less money is not being able to spend as much, but in an individualized, consumer driven economy, taxing income tends to hurt less than taxing spending.

Put it this way, the luxury tax back in the day didn't hurt wealthy people buying yachts and Rolls Royces, it hurt the machinists and dock workers building such items as people stopped buying such items. An increase in the marginal tax rates for income doesn't produce the same effect, even though the tax revenue generated is roughly the same.

Just for an example, I paid $20,000 in net Federal Income tax last year.

If the Fair Tax is 25%, I would have to spend $80,000 on everything just to give Uncle Sam the same $$ as I did last year -- that's $1,500 a week. I don't think I spent that much (my wife, maybe. But that's a different story ). I think I come out ahead with the Fair Tax.

Paris Hilton would probably pay a bit more. But to her it would be a drop in the bucket.

 

[Plante26]

Re: Obama XII: The shine is off the glass slipper

From the flavor of the posts here, I guess cutting back on spending isn't an option......gotta keep feeding the debt monster, I guess.

 

[Red Cloud]

Re: Obama XII: The shine is off the glass slipper

From the flavor of the posts here, I guess cutting back on spending isn't an option......

Are you some kind of nut?

 

[Kepler]

Re: Obama XII: The shine is off the glass slipper

From the flavor of the posts here, I guess cutting back on spending isn't an option......gotta keep feeding the debt monster, I guess.

Cut the four biggest slices in half today and you have my vote. In 2005 those accounted for 68% of the budget; if the percentages held that would be a 34% spending cut or .34 x $3.55T = $1.2T, exactly the anticipated size of this year's deficit.

Problem solved. Except of course for even proposing that we'd be burned at the stake by both the right and the left.

Edit: In 2010, still 68%. So cut away, but prepare to be boarded by the DOD, Lockheed-Martin, the AMA, and the AARP.

 

[ScoobyDoo]

Re: Obama XII: The shine is off the glass slipper

From the flavor of the posts here, I guess cutting back on spending isn't an option......gotta keep feeding the debt monster, I guess.

Cutting back on spending is meaningless rhetoric and the fact that it gets morons like Tim Pawlenty elected is a reflection of the stupidity of the electorate. Starving government is a failed strategy that has just piled on more debt.

Propose some cuts. I'll start. Medicare/Social Security. The selfish generation needs to pay for their crimes against humanity.

 

[Plante26]

Re: Obama XII: The shine is off the glass slipper

Are you some kind of nut?

I must be. I figured I had to cut back on my spending due to decreasing revenues, the US government might have to do the same. Guess not. Maybe I should find a currency printing press and foreign nations to buy my rapidly-deflating debt. That seems to be a winning economic formula these days. I wonder what will happen when China starts playing hardball and threatens to decimate our economy with a single treasury bond sales transaction.

 

[pirate]

Re: Obama XII: The shine is off the glass slipper

Cut the four biggest slices in half today and you have my vote. (In 2005 those accounted for 68% of the budget; if the percentages held that would be a 34% spending cut or .34 x $3.55T = $1.2T, exactly the anticipated size of this year's deficit.

Problem solved. Except of course for even proposing that we'd be burned at the stake by both the right and the left.

And here I climb on my 'private industry' soapbox...I submit that cuts to those 4 largest slices could be accomplished with very little impact to actual services provided...imagine a company that has never had a downsizing, never had efficiency cuts although we've had an explosion in technology, never had somebody just cut travel and office supply budgets in half, never had salary freezes, filled every vacant position, spent their entire budget every year regardless of need etc....how much dead wood and fluff is in those slices?

I would say they could easily cut 10% from those pieces before any real impact was felt...of course it won't get played that way.

Instead you'll hear that we'll have terrorists killing people in the streets, dead patients stacked up like cordwood, people eating dog food etc if cuts were mandated...

In the real world, if you said you couldn't cut anything after decades of largess they'd cut you and find somebody who can implement efficiencies.

 

[ScottM]

Re: Obama XII: The shine is off the glass slipper

I wonder what will happen when China starts playing hardball and threatens to decimate our economy with a single treasury bond sales transaction.

I doubt the Chinese are going to start anything that retarded with their largest export market. Now some dullards in Congress talking about "sanctioning" the Chinese for their Yuan peg, or other issues, is another story. Then again, Obama slapped idiotic tariffs on some Chinese tires last year.

 

[Handyman]

Re: Obama XII: The shine is off the glass slipper

And here I climb on my 'private industry' soapbox...I submit that cuts to those 4 largest slices could be accomplished with very little impact to actual services provided...imagine a company that has never had a downsizing, never had efficiency cuts although we've had an explosion in technology, never had somebody just cut travel and office supply budgets in half, never had salary freezes, filled every vacant position, spent their entire budget every year regardless of need etc....how much dead wood and fluff is in those slices?

I would say they could easily cut 10% from those pieces before any real impact was felt...of course it won't get played that way.

Instead you'll hear that we'll have terrorists killing people in the streets, dead patients stacked up like cordwood, people eating dog food etc if cuts were mandated...

In the real world, if you said you couldn't cut anything after decades of largess they'd cut you and find somebody who can implement efficiencies.

This is how I feel as well, and I would contend you could cut at least 20% from defense and no one would notice. Hell I bet you could do that without closing down bases on the home front if you just bring troops home from over seas, and I am not even talking about the War.

 

[blockski]

Re: Obama XII: The shine is off the glass slipper

Racist thread title.

Kidding.

Or am I?

Porterhouse! Look at the wax build-up on these shoes! I want that wax stripped off of there, then I want them creamed and buffed with a fine shammy.